Hi guys,new to the forum although an occasional viewer. Unfortunately time for some help. I am in the middle of adjusting the valves on my 2014 ZX14R for the first time (at 16,000 miles) and ran into a problem. The good news is that I have 15 valves properly adjusted but there is one stubborn intake that I just cannot seem to get right. The initial measurement was 0.005" (which equates to 0.127 metric). The math told me to drop down from 2.200 to 2.150 which I did BUT when I measured it I got the same 0.005". Thinking that I got the math wrong I tried 2.100 followed by 2.050 with the same results! I went so far as to remove the shim and still got the same results. I then swapped buckets with the adjacent valve (with the proper shim in place) and got similar results. I am waiting to hear back from the dealer.
I mic'd the shims (prox and hotcams) and they are all fairly accurate. I also mic'd two buckets and they are similar in dimension.

I found this post but am not sure if it is the same problem: http://zx1441r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3683
I find it hard to believe that it would be wrong from the factory.

For the record five intakes were ok, the rest were tight to varying degrees.

Have you guys ever heard of such a thing? Words of wisdom?

True in advertising: In case this post looks familiar I have also posted at zzrbikes.net

I suspect measurement uncertainty or error? The feeler gauges slip fit are subject to interpretation, its easy to measure a bit off. As long as you can get it in spec and have at least min clearance assured you are OK. To tite is bad, to loose hits performance but wont burn a valve.

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Thanks for the response. I wish it were that simple. I dialed in all of the exhaust at 0.010 which is at the upper (loose) limit. On the intakes five are at 0.007 one is 0.008 but then there is this troublemaker which no matter what shim I try the end result is always 0.005. I tried 0.006 with some force which is not good. 0.007 definintely does not go! So, even if I go with an extremely thin shim such as 2.05 (or none at all) I still can only fit a feeler gauge of 0.005; anything thicker will not fit. Therefore the conundrum.

With no shim there would be no gap between the lobe and bucket?

If this is actually true and the valve has seated deep enough to cause this I would go back to the stealership and talk with their service manager.

* Last updated by: cruderudy on 4/8/2017 @ 2:17 PM *

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If the valve is seated that deep, that would push the valve stem in deeper too (up). That's why valve clearances get tight as the valves wear in, the valve stem rises higher through the guide...so you need a thinner shim to lower the bucket.

Sounds like possible new valve(s). Good thing you caught it.....but very odd at only 16k miles. Never heard of it.

Only other thing that comes to mind---you sure you have your top dead center right? Doubt that would be it or you would have this issue with the other valves that are timed the same...but that's all I can think of.

I would keep all the buckets in their original positions. Good test but I'd switch that one you swapped over to the tighty back where it was.

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Thanks for the responses. Bucket returned to original position. FYI, prior to teardown the bike ran flawlessly; if there was a bad valve I sure didn't notice.

I made the drive to the dealer yesterday and spoke with the service tech. Explained the situation with lots of questions and rationalizations to which we could not come up with an explanation. He will contact Kawasaki tech support Tuesday.

While driving home I had an epiphany (albeit a minor one); the valve stem has a retainer and keepers on its end holding the spring in place. The shim sits inside of the retainer resting on the valve stem. The bucket has a nib inside which contacts the shim and the top of the bucket contacts the cam lobe. The retainer has a raised ring which holds the shim in place. The shim sits slightly lower than the raised ring. What happens if the bucket nib is not tall enough? What if that instead of the bucket nib contacting the shim the area around the nib contacts the raised ring on the retainer? As long as the shim sits below the ring (which I believe they all do) then no matter what size shim or none at all the measurement will always be the same 0.005” (only for the troublemaker).

To help prove this, I took a red sharpie and painted it on the shim and retainer ring, put the bucket in place and gave and it a push and rotation. I would expect to see the ink transfer from the shim to the nib but it did not. Instead I saw the ink transfer forming a perfect circle around the nib. I did the same test to the adjacent (good) valve with the ink properly transferring to the nib.

Hmmmm, could I be on to something? Maybe this one bucket does not have a tall enough nib to make it past the retainer ring coupled with a retainer ring that is ever so slightly taller than the others?

I would say so.

I don't recall there being a nib in my gen1 lifters. Also, I have a pic showing a shim that is higher than the ring it is sitting in...but if your looking at these items close enough to notice such things, chances are you'r onto something. If that's the onliest one that rings instead of nibs, I would try a new bucket (or set of buckets). Hopefully Kaw will pay for something but don't bet on it.

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By design, the top of the shim has to set higher than the nib (or whatever its called) or bucket height cannot be adjusted.

Something not right here ... without a shim the gap between the lobe and the bottom of the bucket s/b way loose out of spec. I would compare other valve details with the problem one with a height gauge or depth mic

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What do you do to an engine when the valves wear too deep into te seats? Grind the stems or replace the valves?? I'd say you grind or somehow go to a valve with a shorter stem or replace the seats and valves if that is possible. Never heard of anyone needing to do this with their 14.

I would be planning to remove valves to see what exactly is going on.

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Maybe the valve/seat burned or worn out? Was there a possibility of a lean condition to toast the valves?

I would recommend a bore camera to visually inspect the piston and what you can see in the cylinder and then a leakdown test to try and get info on the valves integrity. I also want to hear about the dimensional inspection of this valve compared to the other good ones.

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Good points by all. I am going go take a break from this until I hear back from the dealer. In the meantime here is my first attempt at loading pictures of the offending bucket/shim, hope it works.

Picture of problem bucket with shim next to the 'nib'. The 'nib' is what is supposed to contact the shim when in place.

Picture of shim in retainer. Notice the shim is lower than the retainer ring which is probably why the bucket has a nib.

Picture of bucket after applying red sharpie to shim and retainer ring; notice the red ink transfer is not on the nib.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions. I will report back once I hear from the dealer; hopefully with good news.

For sure that shim should be sitting higher than the retainer. Either it's got the wrong retainer in there, maybe a screw up from the factory, or the retaining clips are slipping or the groove in that particular valves is wrong.
Keep us posted.

Mad

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Great pics, man....I like your style.

I'm sure you have normal shims to compare but here's mine that shows a shim that is higher than the retainer.

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...and this here one here shows the tip of the valve stem...even that is sticking up out of the bottom of the retainer.

...and here we have a freshly removed bucket with shim still in place. There is no wear ring around the shim like yours has.

Your ink test proves your bucket is contacting the shim retainer. That's why the clearance is always tight...if you put a thinner shim in there, the lifter still rides on the retainer. Put no shim in, same thing, still riding on the retainer. BUT you can't put a thicker shim in there so the lifter rides on it or else the clearance gets even tighter.

OK, now look at my first pic. The shim retainer is a gray disk and below it, I see a lighter metal going down into the head. That must be the spring. So it would seem your whole shim retainer is getting pressed up too high under the tension of the spring and the only way that can happen is A) the valve stem is too long (for some reason) or B) the valve has worn so deep into the seat it is pushing the valve stem way high.

There is no way to adjust this clearance looser. The retainer is riding too high to begin with.

Very interesting pics. This has been educational. The wear in the lifter doesn't look bad at all and I would hope the shim retainer ring has not been pounded too flat. You probably caught this before any major damage occurred.

If your valve is worn or burned into the seat far enough to cause the retainer to stand this high, there's a good chance that cylinder will leak compression. Do the compression test and leak down. Might give you some clues before you tear it apart.

You can repair valve seats by cutting them deeper but your up a creek if they are too deep to begin with.

From the SM:
Do not grind the seat too much. Overgrinding will reduce valve clearance by sinking the valve into the head. If the valve sinks too far into the head, it will be impossible to adjust the clearance, and the cylin- der head must be replaced.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/10/2017 @ 9:11 AM *

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Maddevill and Rook, thanks for some excellent advice. Fortunately I have a leakdown tester which has never been used. Time to take it out of the box.

Every picture tells a story, don't it?

I will share this thread with the dealer; lots of good explanations and advice here.

Further thoughts: I checked the other buckets on the intake side and see that six of them have the additional circular wear marks surrounding the nib. And, everyone one of them has a shim which is lower than the retainer; unlike Rooks picture. I don't know what the exhaust looks like; the cam is in place and I was hoping not having to remove it. I might have to just to see if the buckets are worn like the intakes. Darn.

If you look at the shim chart the range is from 2.000 to 3.000 in 0.025 increments. The largest original shim on the intake is 1@ 2.250, 5@ 2.200 and 2@ 2.175 . The reason I state this is that these shims are in the lower (thinnest) 1/4 of the chart of available shims. I would think that they would design the valve adjustment at the upper thickest range thereby giving more life to adjustments.

My exhaust started out at 3@ 2.250, 4@ 2.225 and 1@ 2.200 . All of these were beyond the tightest limit 0.007 being the worst. I adjusted all of them to 0.010".

The big question now is... well, is this normal and what is the fix? Stay tuned.

I checked the other buckets on the intake side and see that six of them have the additional circular wear marks surrounding the nib. And, everyone one of them has a shim which is lower than the retainer;

If the shim is lower than the retainer, I don't see how they could be adjusted to an acceptable clearance?? If you have 7 out of 8 buckets with the retainer ring wear, this is not just something funny with the one valve.

I don't know what the exhaust looks like; the cam is in place and I was hoping not having to remove it. I might have to just to see if the buckets are worn like the intakes. Darn.

rv, I did my valve adjustment at about 24000 miles and I had only two intakes that were tight. Every single exhaust was tight...so I would not anticipate good things when you check your'n. There probably has been some kind of accelerated valve wear. I don't know what else would cause it except burning.

Good investigative work.

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I adjusted all of them [exhaust] to 0.010".

...on the other hand, if you adjusted the exhausts and the .010 tape slides in without getting squeezed, they must be okay now.

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So tell us about the mods to the bike and how many track days and passes are in the 2 yrs and 16k miles? If the valves are really seated this deep the bike should have been barely running and like crap before you went in to check/adjust

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I wonder if there could be any chance the wrong cams were put in the bike at the factory? If the journals are the correct diameter they would fit but if the cams are the wrong size or degree--???

..you did say you adjusted the exhausts all to .010. They would have done the same thing at the factory but if the cams were wrong, that could have caused the valves to close too tightly and wear faster. But I suppose the engine would probably have run so poorly, it would have never made it past the dyno.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/11/2017 @ 7:30 AM *

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It doesn't matter whether the valve is sinking into the seat or is stretching, the shim should NOT be sitting below the retainer. Period. Otherwise why have a shim at all? You could just have different height buckets and change them out. Something is wrong with that head assembly. Either the wrong parts were used at the factory or someone did a major screw up somewhere down the line. I think I would have Kawasaki take a look into it and perhaps, if you're lucky they can do a good will warranty for you. At this point I would stop working on it and take it to the dealer.

Mad

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cruderuddy - stock engine, no mods, routine maintenance; oil, filters, tires etc. Sadly no track days. Rarely sees redline and never hit the limiter. Most of my riding is boring freeway. During break in I kept the revs moving.

Rook - I can check the cam part number just to make sure. I measured the lobes with a vernier caliper as best I could and they are consistent within 0.001" or so of each other.

Maddevill - I think you nailed it. We'll see what Kawasaki says.

If there is a burnt valve I don't notice. Idle is fairly smooth. Power is the same as when new. No smoke. Oil level drops between changes but not to the point of adding.

I just got off the phone with the dealer. Kawasaki was not able to give much advice; they did log the issue so at least it is in their system.

His machinist thinks the valve stems may be mushroomed and sitting too low in the retainer. He suggested removing all of the intake shims, put the buckets in place and feeler gauge them. They should measure about 0.050" without the shims. Well I already know that one of them measures a tight 0.005". Inspect the valve stems for mushrooming and the retainers for any differences.

I will do this and take pictures of each as best I can and record the measurements.

Lastly the head will have to come off to correct this. I feel like I'm digging a hole.....sigh.

If Mother Kawi is putting valves, or at least 1 valve, soft enough to "mushroom" under normal operating conditions in their supersport bike which has been mostly used to commute on they are going to have big problems.

I'm not buying it, the steel those valve are made of will not "mushroom" unless something is really beating on it.They are not in the load path of the force from the cam lobe, the spring takes the load as the valve slides in the guide.

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It doesn't matter whether the valve is sinking into the seat or is stretching, the shim should NOT be sitting below the retainer. Period.

I was thinking the same thing all along but I didn't want to ask too many questions at once --so now I will ask: You mean to say ANY shim you put in there is below the retainer??? --or was it that the shim that was in there before you attempted to adjust was below the retainer?

It's clear there can be no adjustment if the shim is not above the retainer.

If you had 7 out of 8 intakes with the retainer ring in the bucket, I don't see how you could have adjusted these looser. Not possible if they're already riding on the retainer.

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It doesn't matter whether the valve is sinking into the seat or is stretching, the shim should NOT be sitting below the retainer. Period.

I agree which seems to indicate the retainer/spring is sitting to high

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