wrong camshafts, wrong valves, bunt valves, stretched valves, mushroomed stems, something assembled weird....I'm dying for rv to get to the bottom of this.

Time for an update: bottom line is nothing has changed, no explanation but I do have additonal info.

I removed the exhaust cam and see that none of the buckets have any wear ring from making contact with the retainer. All of the exhaust shims are set below the retainer just like the intakes. I measured all of the buckets (intake/exhaust) and find that they range from 0.106 to 0.107". This represents the thickness of the bucket between the top which contacts the cam and the underside nib which (should) contact the shim.

I removed all of the intake shims, intalled the buckets and cam per the machinists suggestion. I measured cylinder #2 at 0.008" and 0.010" and cylinder #4 (the problem child) at 0.005" and 0.007". I will take a shot at cyl#1 and 3 today once I install the tensioner so I can rotate the engine. These measurements are a far cry from the machinists expectation of 0.050". Obviously something is wrong.

I have emailed this info to the dealer and am waiting for a response. I also spoke with a local mechanic and he too was mystified. He stated that having the bucket hit the retainer vs the shim is a disaster waiting to happen; the keepers will pop and drop the valve.

I am still not clear if the shims being below the retainer are correct. And, if not then why? I reread some of your responses and pictures; why are mine low?

Assuming that all of the parts are correct and correctly installed then could it be valve wear causing this? At 16,000 miles? Is that the reason why the shims are low?

I feel like I am beating a dead horse.

EUREKA!! a light just went on in my head. You mentioned the nib in the bottom of the bucket. That combined with a shim (even a shim that is a bit lower than the retainer ring) could give you proper clearance. The shim below the bucket does not necessarily mean the bucket is riding on the retainer. The nib is holding the bucket up as well as the shim. Even so, having shims lower than the retainer seems like something I would expect on an old engine, not a new one.

All of the exhaust shims are set below the retainer just like the intakes.

I will take a shot at cyl#1 and 3 today once I install the tensioner so I can rotate the engine.

step 20

http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=D659042A-D56B-84E2-1C5A7BC825184613

I am still not clear if the shims being below the retainer are correct. why are mine low?

It might give you correct clearance but it is not normal. If whatever caused this is still happening, there's going to be a problem in a short time.

Assuming that all of the parts are correct and correctly installed then could it be valve wear causing this? At 16,000 miles? Is that the reason why the shims are low?

Check compression and leak down. If normal, you have long valves or deep seats. No idea why. Ride bike and check clearance again in a few thousand miles. If compression is low a/o leakdown is too fast, remove valves and head to check seats and valve length.If that's normal....I guess you will know where to go from there once you get there.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/14/2017 @ 10:11 AM *

RV you run her pretty hard? Looks like cam journal is pitted pretty heavily?

Shim lower or below retainer is fine.
Shim bucket's center rise hitting no shim but the red mark can be wiped off [in the photo] is needing a thicker shim.

What I'd try is a thicker shim, paint the ring again, spin the bucket. If no mark wiped off, I'd choose a thinner shim until the ring wipes off. The next thicker size is now the starting point of 'where is my valve lash now' [with cam installed]?

The thicker my shim, the less valve lash and I 'breakout' from book's tightest spec:
1. Worse scenario = Seat walk up the head.
2. In the cheap seats = Valve face needing change, no cutting, no lapping, or keeper wear and that walk.
3. Do I keep chasing my tail or = The cams being out; I am in need of a leakdown tester.

Where is my compression on the questionable valve? I don't play 'ran good last time I rode it' for a comp test.
Can't be a cam journal or the opposing open valves loading the cam, thus raising the camshaft, we'd want more shim to close the gap.
Can't be a wiped cam lobe or we'd want more shim to compensate for wear.

Signed,
NOLTT

I have read and reread your responses and am still having a hard time understanding what is or could be going wrong.
However I am beginning to believe that the valve seat is receeding. As some of you have stated that would push the stem closer to the bucket/cam reducing the clearance. So much that as the shims become thinner the bucket nib cannot overcome the height of the retainer to properly contact shim resulting in retainer bucket contact.

Engine is not run hard. Cam journals and lobes look good. Maintenace is regular.

Shim below retainer is ok only if nib in bucket can bridge the gap. It doesn't. Putting in a thicker shim will put the gap out of spec. Remember that no shim is 0.005" which is below the 0.0059" - 0.0079" spec.

I measured the other two cylinders without shims and got simliar tight results: cyl1 = 0.008 and 0.012, cyl3 = 0.007".
So across the board the cam is too close to the valve stems.

Leakdown test run on the problem cylinder; results is it held at the zero mark - no loss of compression meaning intake/exhaust and rings are ok. I will check the other cylinders when I have more time. Easter and family and all that.

Dealer responded stating that the head will have to come off for inspection. The machinist says that since the shimless measaurements are so tight he suspects mushroomed valve stems. I look at the stems but do not see any disfiguration. Also, if the stem is mushroomed wouldn't that make the stem shorter resulting in a larger gap not a smaller one? The larger gap would then require larger shims. Am I missing something here?

Did you know that in order to remove the head the engine needs to be removed? That is a bit of work. I am not up to the task. I replied to the dealer to see if Kawasaki would provide some good will. I am not holding my breath. Depending on the response I may opt to have a local shop, which is very competent to do the work. Not sure if I want the dealer to do the work. Waiting to hear back from the dealer. I also found a Contact Online page at the K site and left this thread to see if anyone there will read and respond. We shall see.

If the valve seat is the problem how would that be remedied? Can the seat be replaced?
Further thoughts: if the cam is sitting too low that would make the shim thinner.
if the retainer is sitting too high on the stem, same thing.
if the length of the valve stem is too long, same thing.

All for now, Happy Easter to everyone.

* Last updated by: rviscuso on 4/15/2017 @ 10:43 PM *

You seem to understand what you're doing, so we can do nothing but assume you're measuring everything accurately and you are not involved with the "cause" of the issue at all. Like others have said, most of us only know by feel and experience how feeler guages work and that sort of thing. If I can try to describe proper feeler guage use, there should be dra, but not force when properly measuring. If it just slips in and out freely, that's not the proper measuring technique. IMO I highly recommend measuring using metric compared to standard. Just seems like there's more resolution using metric although that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

Let's look at the evidence at hand.

In your pictures, there's a small wear mark on the bucket from where the retainer became the shim. Note that your red ink test liens match this wear marks perfectly. There's no way you doing some dissassembly-reassembly caused those wear marks. These has to come from engine operation. Bucket and shims rotate (just due to whatever mechanical forces at hand) during operation. It appears to me, that for a short time the retainer was acting as the shim with the engine running. I believe (and it's only a belief) that if the bucket had been riding on the retainer for longer period of time (1000s of miles) the wear mark would be more evident.

Something changed, and I don't think I'd operate the engine until you know what. It basically has to be something with the valve/retainer/keeper system.

So questions I have for anyone?

Does what I'm saying abou tthe wear marks from the retainer jive with anyone else?

Is there some possible way to measure and compare the installed height of this valve compared to others? The goal would be to try to compare the installed height from the spring seat to the top of the retainer.

Is it possible use use the compressed air technique to somehow possibly remove and inspect the valve spring retainer/locks without taking the cylinder head off?

Here's the possbilities as I see it, from least possible:

Valve stem stretched above the keepers
Retainer stretched between keepers and top
Keepers and/or valve stem notch are damaaged allowing retainer to shift upwards
Valve seat receeded excessively

This thread http://www.psychobike.com/forums/kawasaki-zx12r-zx14/58006-zx14-valve-keeper-loose-nitrous-oxide.html
someone states they have a tool for doing what I'm possibly suggesting without removing the head. It might allow you to at least inspect those parts before removing the whole head. You could also definitely measure the top of the valve to spring deck accurately too.

The only other thing I'm seeing is tearing the head off. I don't know soemtimes you can do things without following the manual as far as it being requiared to remove the engine to remove the head. Someone might know if this is actually possible vs. just Kawasaki following best practice.

Also, if the stem is mushroomed wouldn't that make the stem shorter resulting in a larger gap not a smaller one?

If the valve seat is the problem how would that be remedied? Can the seat be replaced?

The good news is, if the head is shot and there's no warranty, you can probably find a good used one I'm sure much more reasonably priced than new.

And I wouldn't give up hope, should the need arise to go to such extreme measures, that Kawasaki might do something out of good will. Just might take a lot longer to get your bike up and running. I don't think I'd run it like that.

1. With a micrometer that has a big enough throat to return to the other pin on the close, did you measure one shim bucket with another to see if both had the same numbers, or was the other one flatter/mushroomed than a few other buckets measured at that center point?

2. Vale stem tip does not look mushroomed to me. Without depressing the retainer too far down, but rather find the splits at the keepers. Splits are one direction is X. Then at a direct 90° of the gaps, move the retainer side to side [fore/aft] that way and that's Y. I don't see vibration hammering at the edges of the I/D of the retainer holding the keepers in. I don't want to bend the valve, just see if the keeper recess at the valve is hammered loose, and or retainer I/D can be shifted off the valve's stem.

3. I'd find some clay; place a shim that is even with the retainer. Break off a tiny piece of clay and place it on the oil free side of the retainer [ring area]; then spray wd40 in the bucket so the clay is released off the bucket side. Press the bucket down with the wooden side of a hammer and pull the bucket off. Do we have clay squished without touching the ring, but can be measured if cut down the middle? Keep removing shims until the clay is squished right down to the painted ring. Move up one shim thickness = You still have a gap or clearance that says the valve is closed upon compression.

That's your option. Ride it, sell it, trade it in.

If you do it, use ceramic clay, not oil based modeling clay.

Let's get one thing clear, It doesn't matter at ALL if the valve seat is worn or the valve is sinking into the seat. The problem is the relationship between the retainer and the valve shim. Even if the valve seat was wearing, the distance from the retaining clips and retainer height would NOT CHANGE. There is something wrong with this measurement. It's either a bad batch of valves, or the wrong valve or the wrong retainer. If the shim sits below the retainer lip and it already has tight clearances, it will be impossible to ever adjust the valves. Forget all the talk about valve wear and seat wear. It just does not pertain to this situation.

Mad

Maddevill, iteresting point. It's starting to sound like the retainers are too tall. If true, then would removing some material from the tops of each retainer be safe? Specifications; are they of the correct dimension? Who knows. Again, it still looks like the head will have to come off to check measurements. I doubt there is enough room to remove retainers and keepers with compressed air holding the valve from dropping. Not something I have ever done.

It may be possible to remove the head in place. I see a frame member bolted to the upper frame and to the front of the head; one on each side. Pull headers, maybe radiator, twelve screws on the head.

If Kawai kicks in some help I may just have the dealer do the work. If no help, then it's up to me or a local shop recommended to me that has an excellent reputation.

Still waiting to hear from Kawi/dealer for some good will.

I've been following this thread and have been trying to figure out basically what is touching what when it comes to the final distance between the cam lobe and the bottom of the valve. For example: I think the total distance would be measured from the bottom of the cam lobe and include: the bucket, the shim and the entire valve (stem+valve).

I pulled up the below parts diagram from bike bandit and the image below that to use as a reference from another site for a different engine that also uses shim under bucket overhead cam valve train.

In the second picture it appears that the valve stem directly contacts either the shim or the valve spring retainer (zx14 part number 12009). The significance of this is: if the valve stem contacts the shim directly and the shim sits too low in the retainer (part # 12009) than that would suggest that the valve stem is too short, as the shim would sit further down to contact the valve stem.

If the valve stem contacts the retainer directly, then I would expect the length of the valve to be less important for this particular issue as the valve stem is not pushing up on the shim and if we exaggerate the height of the retainer, say make it 1/4 of an inch higher for where the shim sits, no matter what size smaller of shim is installed the clearance between the bucket and the cam lobe will never change since the retainer is pushing on the bucket.

I'm not an expert on this design and am just speculating here, but I'm guessing that the valve stem is connected to the valve spring retainer otherwise how would the spring close the valve? If this is case then I would expect that the shim contacts the retainer, which contacts the valve.

So the total length from the bottom of the lobe to the bottom of the valve if there is NO SHIM installed would be bucket + retainer/collet + valve, if there is a shim installed the total length would be bucket + shim + retainer/collet + valve. It would seem to me if the retainer/collet that holds the shim in place is taller than the shim there is no way that the shim could ever adjust the total length of the valve train.

If the valve stem was too short (for example mushroomed) then the clearance would be too great but adding thicker shims would adjust for this. If the valve seat was excessively compacted then the clearance would be too small but adding thinner shims would adjust for this. If the bucket was too thick or thin then shims would still be able to adjust for this. The only thing that makes sense to me (again with limited knowledge here) is the retainer is too tall to allow the shim to touch the bucket to adjust the entire valve length.

If the retainer was really short, say 5% of the overall height of the shim, there could be a situation where the shim could pop out of the retainer. If the retainer is excessively tall, say 150% of the overall height of the shim, the shim would literally just rattle away inside the retainer and nothing more.

PS, second post since my previous one was a bit long winded... is it not possible to use an engine scope (camera) to look inside the cylinder if all they are looking for is a damaged seat or stem? I would want to know exactly what they are needing to inspect, not just "the head", before I would commit to removing the cylinder head.

The valve stem is what acts on the shim.
What I see as happening is the retainer keepers #12011 are tapered and have a shoulder inside that engages the valve stem. Spring compressed with retainer on top of the spring, valve sticks through the retainer and the keepers are placed onto the valve stem. When the spring compressor is released the spring expands and the tapered keepers recede into the keeper. The taper works with the inner taper of the keeper to force the keepers together and trap the valve.

Couple things could be happening,
Slot in valve stem for keepers incorrectly located,
Keepers wearing either the taper is sinking further into the retainer or the internal shoulder is failing allowing the valve to slip through the keeper,
The machined taper in the retainer is to large allowing the keepers to sink to far into the retainer.

I'm kind of the same thought as Mad I think. Shim should not be below the surface of the retainer and valve seating deeper is not what is causing this.

Dave

It would seem to me if the retainer/collet that holds the shim in place is taller than the shim there is no way that the shim could ever adjust the total length of the valve train.

Except you must remember there is that "nib" that projects from the underside of the bucket. That also adds space between the valve stem and the top of the bucket where the cam rides. I can see having shims lower than the retainer ring because the nib is reaching down into the bore holding the bucket higher than the top of the ring. At some point, you would run out of nib thickness and too thin of a shim would allow the bucket to contact the upper edge of the retainer ring which seems to be happening on at least one of rv's valves already.

I would think needing to use shims that are lower than the retainer ring is a warning the valves are wearing out. ...but with so few miles on this bike, let's hope it is something else.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/19/2017 @ 3:49 PM *

For what it's worth, I found the following:

I found this at webcamshafts.com faq

13.
My retainer is hitting the roof of the tappet; can I modify the retainer to provide clearance?
Many times this type of interference is created when the valves have been sunk into the head and the tips of the valves have been "excessively" ground (shortened) and thin shims are being used, to achieve recommended lash. In this condition Web Cam recommends either replacing the valve seats or using custom valves that are designed with the corrected overall length and the factory groove location. Web Cam does not advise retainer modification for this type of condition.

and this at
http://fastheads.biz/common-mistakes-warranty-policies/

6. Adjustment shims may only touch the top of the valve stem and the shim pad in the ceiling of the lifter bucket or the pad on the underneath of the rocker arm. If the spring retainer gets depressed rather than the valve stem, the keepers can dislodged and the valve could drop. We see this a lot and often get blamed for the failure. The most common problem is when the lifter bucket is lifted above the width of the shim and it sticks to the lifter and then slides to one side. When the lifter is pushed back down the shim rests outside the retainer bore and depresses the retainer. Always take the shim out of the bucket and install it in the retainer before installing the bucket. The same can happen with the rocker on the CRF’s. The shim can fall out or get cocked side ways on the retainer. Every time the cam shaft is reinstalled and after the cam caps are torqued, re-check the valve lash. If the gap is super loose or way tight you will know that the shim has become dislodged. The keepers, also called locks are wedged into a groove near the top of the valve stem. If the retainer gets pushed down rather than the valve stem you should visually look to make sure they are in the groove and then set them by tapping lightly on the retainer with a socket that is larger than the shim bore. Aftermarket lifter buckets often have larger diameter shim pads in the ceiling of the bucket.

If the surface of the shim sits below the top of the retainer the lifter may come in contact with the top of the retainer rather than the shim and will dislodge the keepers. Some after market retainers are taller above the valve stem and the same can happen.

Even if the keeper doesn’t completely dislodge they will not wedge and eventually wear out the stem grove and the valve will drop. This can also happen when a seat has been cut deep, raising the stem in the head which requires a much smaller shim. If you think this may be a problem, check the valve lash without a shim in the retainer. You will need at least .010? / .25mm more clearance than the required maximum valve clearance. (i.e. If your valve clearance should be .006? maximum you should have at least .016? when the shim is not installed.)

Rook,

Good point about the "nib" on the underside of the bucket, it would allow the shim to sit below the outer lip of the collet. The fact that the "ink test" showed that the lip of the collet is touching the underside of the bucket says to me that the nib is not contacting the shim so the shim isn't doing anything to adjust the height.

By "...valves are wearing out." do you mean the valve is sinking further into the seat in the head? I would expect this to cause the shim to stick up higher, reducing the clearance and require a smaller shim. If the valve was damaged (ie bent) and not seating properly in the head then it could cause the stem to be sitting further down, this would probably not show up as a shim/collet clearance issue and would definitely cause a compression issue which would have been seen in the leak down test.

I've been wondering how rviscuso was able to perform the leak down test, since that would require reassembling the engine and getting it up to operating temperatures to then test properly, if the test was run while the engine was still cold I would expect some leakage.

Rook,

Good point about the "nib" on the underside of the bucket, it would allow the shim to sit below the outer lip of the collet. The fact that the "ink test" showed that the lip of the collet is touching the underside of the bucket says to me that the nib is not contacting the shim so the shim isn't doing anything to adjust the height.

By "...valves are wearing out." do you mean the valve is sinking further into the seat in the head? I would expect this to cause the shim to stick up higher, reducing the clearance and require a smaller shim. If the valve was damaged (ie bent) and not seating properly in the head then it could cause the stem to be sitting further down, this would probably not show up as a shim/collet clearance issue and would definitely cause a compression issue which would have been seen in the leak down test.

I've been wondering how rviscuso was able to perform the leak down test, since that would require reassembling the engine and getting it up to operating temperatures to then test properly, if the test was run while the engine was still cold I would expect some leakage.

david5525,

Thanks for the reply, however you lost me after the second sentence, the use of the terms keeper, retainer keeper and retainer make the last part of that paragraph confusing. Although looking at Rook's first picture answers my question:

The collets are visible as 2 lighter gray 1/2 circles around the valve stem (small dark circle in the middle of the valve spring retainer), so I believe what you described is:
The shim connects directly to the valve stem
The collet (#12011) has a shoulder which connects it to the valve stem
The spring retainer 12009 holds the shim and has a lip for the collet
The bucket sits over top of the whole assembly

The high point of the cam lobe presses down on the bucket, which via the "nib" contacts the shim which pushes on the valve stem and collet. This opens the valve. When the cam rotates and low point of the cam lobe is over the bucket the valve spring pushes on the retainer, which using the lip pushes on the collet which pushes on the valve stem to close the valve.

Yeah sorry Nightmare, sometime I have a hard time putting into words what I am thinking.

To me the failure point in this instance is between #12001, #12009 and #12005 based on the exploded view. It could be the valve wearing deeper into the valve seat but seems odd to me for a first adjustment to run into a clearance problem with the bucket and keeper. I would think that from factory adjustment there would be room to reduce several shim sizes before running into this kind of a problem.

Sounds like there wasn't even room for size down.

The shim connects directly to the valve stem
The collet (#12011) has a shoulder which connects it to the valve stem
The spring retainer 12009 holds the shim and has a lip for the collet
The bucket sits over top of the whole assembly

I got my nomenclature wrong on the previous post so I went back and corrected that...but you get the idea. A shim may provide in spec clearance when you add the thickness of the nib even if the shim is lower than the retainer ring. A shim that is lower than the retainer ring seems like your at the limit of adjusting the clearance though and that can't be normal for a new engine.

Then technically, if the valve has sunk so far into the seat that the retainer is now riding high then that could explain the problem that rviscuso is having.

What is alarming about this is that he stated:

if you look at the shim chart the range is from 2.000 to 3.000 in 0.025 increments. The largest original shim on the intake is 1@ 2.250, 5@ 2.200 and 2@ 2.175 . The reason I state this is that these shims are in the lower (thinnest) 1/4 of the chart of available shims.

The initial measurement was 0.005" (which equates to 0.127 metric). The math told me to drop down from 2.200 to 2.150 which I did BUT when I measured it I got the same 0.005".

So, if the factory shim was 2.200 and we assume that the clearance was in spec off the factory floor. The question is was the retainer hitting the bucket right off the bat or did something happen to cause the clearance to shrink to the point where the shim is useless.

Thinking about this, the valve will naturally wear down the seat, which will cause the spring & retainer to be able to lift higher since the valve sitting in the seat is what stops the spring & retainer from moving. What we do is then reduce the size of the shim to compensate for this in theory, going from 2.200 to 2.150, but the retainer is ALREADY hitting the bucket so this change doesn't do anything.

This would mean either:
A: the lip on the retainer is so high that any shim less than 2.225 (maybe even more) would be too small to be of any use. But then why does Kawasaki even make/sell smaller shims let alone use them? Also, intake valve #2 & #5 use shims 2.200 & 2.175 both smaller than the problem cylinder, in theory the retainers could be different in height.

B: The top of the valve stem is shorter than it used to (mushrooming) or should be (factory defect).

rviscuso,

Did you adjust any of the other intake valves? Can you post a picture of the retainer without the shim in it so we can see the top of the valve stem?

* Last updated by: Nightmare on 4/20/2017 @ 7:36 AM *

At this point it's all really academic. He either pulls the head to see what really going on or puts it back together with the thinnest shim and drives it into a lake.

First off let me say 'Thank you' to all of you guys. Your interest and suggestions etc. is appreciated more than you can imagine. I had no idea my 'conundrum' would create so much interest.

cruderudy - 'drives it into a lake'. Funny!! First time I laughed about this stupid problem. And yes it is academic but wow what an eduction!

hub - x vs y. I am having a little difficulty understanding this one. Pictures below may help.

Nightmare - yeah, improper leakdown test but it did hold at 10%. I could hear air in the crankcase.

Rook - I measured the buckets with and without the nib: 0.107" and 0.091". Doing the math the nib height is 0.016". That is how much it will protude into the retainer hole before hitting the shim. If the retainer/shim is greater than this distance then there is a problem; the nib will not contact the shim.

It seems that the issue is in the area of the retainer/keepers/valve stem and not valve/seat wear. A couple of mechanics say the keepers moved causing the retainer to move therefore changing the retainer/shim/valve stem relationship. See pictures below.

The question I now have is:
1) can the retainers/keepers be removed without removing the head? There isn't much room in there for special tools.
2) can the head be removed without pulling the engine? The radiator and exhaust have to come off, beyond that is there sufficient room to remove 12 head screws and slide the head out?

Picture of problem retainer valve #7 with leftover red ink:

Picture of retainer valve #8:

Picture of retainer valve #1:

Picture of ink test buckets 1-4:

Picture of ink test buckets 5-8:

* Last updated by: rviscuso on 4/21/2017 @ 3:00 PM *