Now when I switch to my picture having alter ego, I get an email notification that I have posted on my own thread.

Ha! Good to see the pic account is working at least!
Even better to hear you are doing well and wounds are healing well.

You know, 3 weekends ago, on one of my favorite remote routes outside Denver, I was coming down a sweeping right hander that comes down a gentle elevation drop and saw a very big deer standing in tall grass about 10 ft off the shoulder and about 250 ft away from me, facing the road. This area is a wilderness refuge and state park so there is a lot of wildlife. Since I was far, I was able to stop easily. My mind immediately went to your crash. Just as I stopped, it ran in the opposite direction back into the woods. Then last weekend, on a winding mountain road, I came upon 2 deer standing in the middle of the road...again my vision wasn't blocked and they were far away so I stopped. I seem to see at least one every weekend now, it seems. Fuckers.

Last month, there was a very tragic chain reaction car accident that started with a fucking ELK running onto the highway. https://www.9news.com/article/traffic/i-25-closed-after-multi-vehicle-fatal-crash/73-085efcfe-7d5b-4911-9066-6230869c204e. This was less than 5 miles from my house and I pass the area every time I go out. If I meet one of them head-on on a bike...that will most probably be my end for sure...have only seen one once while out on a ride and from very far away as it crossed a mountain road.

Continued best wishes for recovery and perhaps introducing the world to a 1-of-1 Gen 3 ZX14! I would call it a ZX14RR.

* Last updated by: ManiZ on 7/21/2021 @ 1:46 PM *

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Thanks Mani.

Continued best wishes for recovery and perhaps introducing the world to a 1-of-1 Gen 3 ZX14! I would call it a ZX14RR.

It's been done already but there would be none like mine!

You must be riding at a reasonable speed which is good. I believe I was about 200 feet away when I saw the deer. I don't think it took even a second to make the decision to steer away from the deer rather than try to stop. I guess I could have done both and I might have made it even at 70 mph but I know I could have done it at 55. The problem is, I don't want to ride at just 55 mph all the time.

We have elk here too but I've never seen one. I've seen bear, fox and bobcat though. Turkey and cranes too. Possibly a cougar once, it ran across the road so fast I don't know what it was except it was a cat with a long tail and thick forelimbs. I've seen lots of deer.

I received the invoice from the hospital. It was only $315!! I thought it would be a couple thousand. They were not able to file the claim to my insurance because my insurance had my first name spelled wrong. I straightened that out and we'll see if it covers anything. I kind of doubt it will. LOL it cost more to tow my bike than it did to go to urgent care!! I'm al better, just a few very minor scabs remain and some dark purple scars. I can see one is fading at the edge already. There's a guy who was interested in buying my wrecked bike a week ago and I keep seeing him around town but I'm not giving her up yet.

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Economy wise, you're not going to get any vast improvement from the performance if you step up in years. When all is said and done, it's better to salvage that bike for a few grand than throw say 12 to 15 grand on used or new.

Yours was a tip over and a puncture. Mine ground the case down. So say I'd have the oil pan off, the cover not on, and the valve cover off. I'd pour either gas or diesel gas [whichever is cheaper] down both cam rungs, center, like really pour a lot and fast. A couple of flushes later, you rub the finger up the wall, or wherever you can feel around for grit.

All is quiet and you slowly turn and hear for crunch. Stop moving if it not quiet. Keep flushing. I rather go with diesel for the oil lubing properties rather than gas being the better detergent. Maybe with gas on the static flush, final flush with diesel to check for the first movement of the crank.

I'd buy a case of brake or contact clean to spray up at the crank area, then down the chain area as the final cleaning. For sure, page 7-2, you freshen up all the orings. You take your paper plate, spray inside the pickup and catch what might have been picked up-pre cutoff. Then pulling the tube [lower left in the drawing], take another clean paper plate and inspect for grit. Let the spray dry and you should see zip. No teardown of the engine.

Pour all the oil back and forth on the cam chain cavity so you lube the chain back up killing two birds. You're not out of the woods yet. Where are we crank end wise? Tone wheel bent? Crank sensor bent back or untouched? Not a scratch on the tone wheel/cam sensor block, I'd proceed.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/23/2021 @ 12:39 PM *

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I don't know Rook.
I don't have a fraction of the technical knowledge Hub, yourself and a bunch of others here have.

But I do know this.
The potential repair of known issues on your wrecked bike is obviously an option.
But it's the unknowns that are the problem and concern.
You spend all your time getting this bike repaired and then find this issue / that issue that you didn't foresee / know about raising it's head.
And they could be major.
Or ongoing.

Wouldn't it be the safest bet to start with a new blank canvass, get yourself another good low mile undamaged 14 and transfer your myriad of upgrades and goodies across to the newer bike?

New start.
Reliability.
Safer.
Possibly newer (maybe a Gen2 upgrade).
Peace of mind.

Each unto their own but I 100% know which way I would be going.

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/23/2021 @ 2:25 PM *

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Now when I switch to my picture having alter ego, I get an email notification that I have posted on my own thread.

I know someone else here who's been doing that ongoing.

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Economy wise, you're not going to get any vast improvement from the performance if you step up in years. When all is said and done, it's better to salvage that bike for a few grand than throw say 12 to 15 grand on used or new.

Oh I'll take the 215 hp with basic mods over the 180 of the Gen1!!!! Good enough for me!!

BUT....

But it's the unknowns that are the problem and concern.
You spend all your time getting this bike repaired and then find this issue / that issue that you didn't foresee / know about raising it's head.
And they could be major.
Or ongoing.

This is true. If the old engine will run, why not give it a go??? Then if the rest of the bike does anything weird after it's put back together, I won't have gone through all the work and money of changing any engine, Gen1 or Gen2. It's just the original engine and if it works, great. If not, no terrible loss, just some new learning experiences garnered.

If the original engine works, I can still put the Gen2 engine in the bike someday if I want but that means at a minimum, an ECU, wiring harness, engine and I forgot...probably the Gen2 instrument cluster too.

OR I can buy a used Gen1 and turn it into the same thing my 2008 was before the wreck OR I can buy a new or used Gen2 and paint it all up to look like my 08.

Yours was a tip over and a puncture. Mine ground the case down. So say I'd have the oil pan off, the cover not on, and the valve cover off. I'd pour either gas or diesel gas [whichever is cheaper] down both cam rungs, center, like really pour a lot and fast. A couple of flushes later, you rub the finger up the wall, or wherever you can feel around for grit.

All is quiet and you slowly turn and hear for crunch. Stop moving if it not quiet. Keep flushing. I rather go with diesel for the oil lubing properties rather than gas being the better detergent. Maybe with gas on the static flush, final flush with diesel to check for the first movement of the crank.

I'd buy a case of brake or contact clean to spray up at the crank area, then down the chain area as the final cleaning. For sure, page 7-2, you freshen up all the orings. You take your paper plate, spray inside the pickup and catch what might have been picked up-pre cutoff. Then pulling the tube [lower left in the drawing], take another clean paper plate and inspect for grit. Let the spray dry and you should see zip. No teardown of the engine.
Pour all the oil back and forth on the cam chain cavity so you lube the chain back up killing two birds. You're not out of the woods yet. Where are we crank end wise? Tone wheel bent? Crank sensor bent back or untouched? Not a scratch on the tone wheel/cam sensor block, I'd proceed.

There's the plan. First step is to take off the crankcase cover and check for dirt. I doubt very much the tone wheel or the sensor were damaged, the hole in the cover isn't that big. It's hard to tell the size of the hole from the lower rez pic that uploads to the forum and is shown on p 3 of this thread. Zooming in on the original pic I took of the RH side, theres a couple pea sized holes that ground through. They contrast clearly with the bright aluminum scape and orange paint I put on the cover. If that cover didn't break anywhere else, I'd say the only damage was to the cover and if I'm lucky no dirt got in or if it did, just under the cover.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/23/2021 @ 4:45 PM *

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I did some careful wiping before I took the crankcase sensor cover off. One bolt was ground down. I had to bend/break the bur off to get the allen wrench in it. The hole in the cover is indeed larger than it looked from the other photo I took. The whole bottom edge ground through leaving an inch wide opening. Matter of fact, it looks like that opening might have happened on impact but maybe with oil rushing out, nothing came in. I have no doubt the engine would have turned a little bit before shutdown.

I don't even know if the TOS was on the bike after it went down. The TOS may have been ripped off if the deer came through the cowl which seems like it probably did. One of the bystanders said he heard the engine scream and then nothing. I don't believe there is any damage to the RH bar end so it's unlikely the throttle turned from the slide and anyway, a forward slide would close the throttle, not open it. I see the throttle cable case is rotated forward about 90 degrees on the bar and that would seem like it could have opened the throttle when the bike was down. The throttle case must have rotated after the bike slid off the pavement and spun facing backwards. Only a backward blow would turn the throttle case forward. Not good. The only other explanation I have for the reported engine scream would be that I opened the throttle when the bike fell. If it went full lock to the left, that would tend to open the throttle. That would not be so bad if the TOS were still on but if it got yanked, that bike could have been running (without oil) when it came to a stop and it might have kept chugging for god knows how long.

The sensor and timing rotor look undamaged. There is a single bright chunk (arrow in the pic) which is probably a chunk of aluminum from the cover stuck to the timing rotor. Other than that, there maybe one piece of sand in there on the floor of the chamber. There may be a couple pieces of sand in side the cover. I will need to look closer tomorrow when the sun is up. It was early evening by the time I got the cover off.

Art this point, I have hope nothing at all went up the cam chain. If the engine were turning when that flake stuck to the rotor, I think the centrifugal force would have flung it off. The signs indicate that the engine stopped before anything got in there. Next will be an inspection under the valve cover.

* Last updated by: Rookpics on 7/26/2021 @ 8:52 PM *

I'm also wondering how much oil is left in the crankcase after the bike shut down. If that suckers dry, that bike was running after it came to stop, I'll bet on it. All the oil couldn't pour out of the cranshaft sensor cover in one second before the TOS would have shut the engine down, not even if the bike laid on its side with a hole in the cover. The oil can't flow up to the crankshaft sensor chamber from the oil pan and pour out. The oil flow isn't that high to that area even when the engine runs. If the crankcase is empty, I have bigger trouble than possible engine contamination, I have a motor that ran a minute or so and ran itself dry of oil.

Thoughts?

* Last updated by: Rookpics on 7/27/2021 @ 11:11 AM *

Simply put, if the engine shut down one second or less after falling, there should be plenty of oil in the crankcase, right?

That's a slow crash on its side. Being on its side for that long and then the hole opens, it's more pushing out oil than drawing some in. Look at the inner cover-it's clean. I wouldn't waste my time popping the valve cover. We are not talking a broken cover that becomes a scoop.

I'd still dump the pan and remove the clutch dust and whatever grit entered.

pics, depends on the oil used.

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That's a slow crash on its side. Being on its side for that long and then the hole opens, it's more pushing out oil than drawing some in.

Maybe slow by drag race standards. The bike had to be doing 60-65 mph at the very least by the time it hit the deck.

As I see it, the oil from the oil pan can't wash up to the crankshaft sensor. The crankshaft sensor is in an enclosed chamber and I don't think there's a high volume of oil going in there. The main indicator of low oil volume is that the crankshaft sensor cover has a wire grommet, no gasket, doesn't even require sealant all around and it still doesn't leak oil when running normally. Nonetheless, the oil trail on the road looked like the oil was spraying and it appears that way from the oil that was distributed on the motor and fairings around the crankshaft sensor too. I would estimate a lot of oil came out. Even if the crankshaft sensor gets low volume, that might be a half quart per second turning at five or six thousand rpm.

After all is said and done, there is that single chip of aluminum on the timing rotor. It's a bit unlikely that would have been left there if the motor was turning after the fall and just about impossible it would be there if the engine was turning after the bike came to a stop. That chip tells me the engine is clean especially given there's next to no debris in the crankshaft sensor chamber.

Look at the inner cover-it's clean. I wouldn't waste my time popping the valve cover. We are not talking a broken cover that becomes a scoop.

I agree, Hub. I'd say she'll run as is with a new crankshaft sensor cover and a few stock electronics replaced.

I'd still dump the pan and remove the clutch dust and whatever grit entered.

Yes, I should have done that a long time ago anyway as a matter of routine maintenance. Might as well learn how now. I might inspect under the valve cover too just for peace of mind.

I find inspecting the evidence to recreate the crash very interesting and the more I look at the bike, the more clues I find. I'll wait to give the full story but so far, the bike definitely went down very hard on its RH side and slid turning counterclockwise until almost sideways with topside in direction of the slide. The crankshaft cover would have been up off the ground when the bike was leaned up on the gas tank. Then taking air, the bike flipped bottom over top. It landed almost mirror image on the top LH side and continued it's slide with tail facing backwards now. Crankshaft sensor cover faced upward almost the whole ride.

* Last updated by: Rookpics on 7/27/2021 @ 1:45 PM *

Personal opinion only but I would get another 2008 - 2011 on the cheap and transfer good parts off the wrecked one before I spent a crap load of dollars repairing it OR get a 2012 plus for the daily ride OR do both then have 2 ZX14's.

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Personal opinion only but I would get another 2008 - 2011 on the cheap

Well, if I could find one on the cheap, I'd do it for $4000 (for yours, I'll go 5 or more ) . A dealership should get $6000 and then I start to think about just buying a new Gen2. I might be able to get this one back to the condition it was in for under $3000. Seems unlikely the front end took any hit except the deer. DAMMIT the luck. I tell ya, I have shitty things happen to me but I always, always seem to avoid the worse case scenario. I suffer the whole way but in the end, I look back at how lucky I was in spite of it.

If this bike runs again, even if I can't go fast on it, I don't mind spending a few thou. I intend to keep it with me the way I always did. It's too big a part of my life to worry about a few thousand bucks. A 14R would be better but I just want my old bike back. It seems only right since I have had such luck. It was meant to be.

* Last updated by: Rookpics on 7/27/2021 @ 4:59 PM *

I did a thorough visual inspection and I removed a few pieces of sand from the crankshaft sensor chamber. Sticking my finger in there to the bottom/back, I can feel the floor of the chamber is open. Probably, that opening goes straight into the front of the oil pan. If I’m correct, it would seem totally possible for a ZX-14 to continue gushing oil out of a broken crankshaft sensor cover with the bike laying on its RH side even if the engine stopped.

A new concern I have is that the engine seems to be leaking coolant. When I worked on the bike about 5 days ago, I put my oil drain pan under it to catch any oil that might still be dripping off of the engine. What was in the drain pan today was not oil, it’s about 1 tablespoon of green coolant. I checked the radiator level and I could still see the top of the coolant but obviously I’ve lost some. The coolant should have been up to the to of the filler neck but it’s a bit low.

Would this be a leaking gasket or an engine crack? Any ideas?

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/31/2021 @ 5:42 PM *

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I went back and drained oil. About the normal amount came out. I probably could have checked the level through the sight glass had I bothered to try but I assumed the oil was low or non existent. All's OK with oil. As mentioned earlier, I doubt the engine ran after the bike went down anyway.

As for the coolant leak, there was not a single drop of coolant in the oil I dumped. Totally normal. I will look for signs of gravel in the oil drain pan tomorrow. The coolant leak could easily have been the overflow tube from the bottle. The pan I placed below the bike could have caught what coolant ran down the overflow tube, the pan was placed in about the right spot to do that. The bike did tip over and flipped bottom over top and it was laying on it's LH side where the coolant bottle is located for some time. Likely the top of the bike was tilted downhill a bit if the ditch was graded with a downslope as they usually are.

I did wrap my finger under the coolant pipe that goes to the water pump and it seemed wet, not oil wet but water wet. Hard to say for sure though. I'll have to check again.

I'll have a look at the coolant level in the bottle and check for signs of coolant at the tip of the drain tube. I left the bike with nothing under it so if there's any more drips, I'll have a clue where they came from.

Clues, clues.......this is like reconstructing a crime. Unfortunate but fascinating, nonetheless.

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There was a number of grains of sand in the drain oil drain pan and what appeared to be a tiny flake of aluminum. I'm not overly concerned as I've often noticed sand or bits of gravel in the drain pan from what falls off the bike. I would be removing the oil pan soon to inspect inside.

I say "would" because I found the tail frame is broken at least on the LH side.

I'm starting to wonder if this will be worth the battle though. If there's no dirt in the oil pan, I'd say, "yeah." You can buy a used tail frame on Ebay for $70 and I see one with the mudflap. I'll need a new mudflap too. Looks like mine tore off at the bolts.

Yeah, the tail frame subframe supports were removed and that probably didn't help but I think the result would have been more or less the same even if they were in.

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So what you think? Move forward or call it a day? The busa boys say full speed ahead.

If it were me, I would move on to a new/used bike, as would probably most ZX owners. But everyone is different and has varying degrees of emotional investment in their bikes. Yours obviously exceeds that of most. One thing I would say however, is that despite my limited knowledge, I firmly believe that bikes should either be 100% road worthy or not at all. So there should be no "Ok to ride if you stay below 60 MPH" version of a formally "safe to ride at any speed the conditions allow for" bike.

Since we don't know what we will encounter out on the street, if your repaired bike isn't 100% able to handle its own and your weight under hard braking regardless of speed or if the engine or electronics can't be returned to their pre-crash level of performance, then I would not advise taking the repaired bike on the road...being rear ended by a car at 15 mph while stopped at a light could be fatal if the frame puts up little to no resistance behind you. Same can happen if the engine cuts outs while at a leisurely 5K RPM going 50MPH, causing a tailgater to bump you hard.

Be safe whatever you decide.

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Just checking to see how the healing is going

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Just checking to see how the healing is going

Nice Mr lytnin.

One thing I would say however, is that despite my limited knowledge, I firmly believe that bikes should either be 100% road worthy or not at all.

Rook, I gotta go with ManiZ on this one.
After seeing the pic's of the wrecked bike and reading your descriptions, the "unknown" is just too substantial to be ignored.
And if the bike is repaired and you are back on the road at any reasonable speed that "unknown" could come out and bite very hard.
IMO it's just not worth the risk.

I know there is a lot of attachment to that bike after all the time you have spent on it and the good times you had together.

Of course it's your call and decision Rook, but maybe it's time to let an old friend go, move on, and get into a straight, reliable, newer upgraded model and know you are doing all you can for your own safety.

Don't tell anyone else that I said this cause it sounds soft, but you're not a bad bloke Rook and we'd like you around for as long as possible.

Let's not tempt the Accident Gods again!

And I really think your old bike will understand...

* Last updated by: yannih on 8/2/2021 @ 1:37 PM *

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So there should be no "Ok to ride if you stay below 60 MPH" version of a formally "safe to ride at any speed the conditions allow for" bike.

I agree. I was thinking more like a museum piece where you can start the bike and ride it down the street if you need to. If it handles well at highway speed, it would be a drag strip bike. Plenty of those have been crashed multiple times. I don't know if I'd ever ride it on the road again. The main frame will be the determining factor there. Obviously I wouldn't be drag racing it if the frame was damaged but the bike could still make a nice place to sit and watch TV from.

Just checking to see how the healing is going

I'm all better, lytnin. Just have to be careful on the knees, they will blister very easily. Hair is growing back in and I assume they will turn back to my normal skin color within a year. The thumb that was injured works fine but the tendon is kind of stiff and it doesn't want to flex as far as the uninjured thumb. My guess is the tendon was scarred. I suppose it will eventually stretch out like normal though. I think I can still do everything I need to do as far as grip goes.

After seeing the pic's of the wrecked bike and reading your descriptions, the "unknown" is just too substantial to be ignored.
And if the bike is repaired and you are back on the road at any reasonable speed that "unknown" could come out and bite very hard.
IMO it's just not worth the risk.

Maybe I'll decide you're right after all, yan but for now, we'll have to make the unknown known. That's what's so intriguing about the whole process. I'll keep digging but if the main frame is shot, I believe I'll be looking for a good used Gen1 or a new Gen2. If I get a Gen2, I still want to restore the old bike to at least look like it runs and I'll put it in my living room some day.

I'm off to remove the seat now and the fuel tank will be next. Then we'll have a better look at the main frame. Then the oil pan comes off. It's nice to not worry so much about busting stuff when I work on the bike!

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/2/2021 @ 3:13 PM *

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Thanks for your inputs, I'll keep you all updated.

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I still want to restore the old bike to at least look like it runs and I'll put it in my living room some day.

Brilliant!

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It's nice to not worry so much about busting stuff when I work on the bike!

That's funny right there!

You have the right plans for the bike, Rook. Having it as a show piece if it can't be safely ridden is the ideal choice for bike of such emotional value.

Good to hear you are continuing to heal well. Considering the nature of the crash, you have been exceptionally lucky. Best wishes!

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