I'm looking for something that might fit on the dash and not be obtrusive. I know I've seen very small toggle switches before with maybe a 3/8" long handle and about as thick as a toothpick. Do you know where I could find these?

The toggle switches I see at the auto supply are way too big and after seeing them, I think the ones I see pictured online are close to the same size.

I see some that require only a quarter inch panel hole but these always seem to be AC switches. Can I use an AC switch safely with 12V current that is low amps (3~5 amp I think---this is for Dynojet modules)? What I find online mostly is telling me NOT to use AC switches with DC current because DC arcs have a much longer duration and require a switch that will withstand that.

Where can I get tiny DC toggle switches?

The size of the switch body is also important. I can't use something that sticks down below the panel an inch.

Here's what I'm talking about but as you see, It's AC.

https://www.radioshack.com/products/spdt-micromini-sw

https://www.amazon.com/AutoEC-Rocker-Switch-Triangle-Motorcycle/dp/B012IE1MPC

http://www.bikebandit.com/aftermarket-parts/electrical/switches-universal/k-s-motorcycle-toggle-switch

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Green-Illuminated-Flick-Toggle-Switch-LED-Light-Car-Boat-Motorcycle-12V-DC-SPST-/172411258947

* Last updated by: KoflaOlivieri on 9/24/2017 @ 8:02 PM *

Thanks, Kofla but all of them are about twice the size of what I'm hoping to find. A 1/2" hole is pretty big. If you ever saw the type of switch I am looking for, it is much smaller than the standard toggle switch. I might have to accept that the bigg'ns are what I have to work with.

might be that a DC switch needs to be big to handle the arch when you flip the switch.

I did find these which have lateral pins and that saves an eighth inch in depth but it's still a big honkin switch to put between the speedo and the tach especially when there will be at least two...and a few more below.

https://vetco.net/products/spst-toggle-switch-heavy-duty-w-wire-leads-protective-boot-on-off-8a?gclid=CjwKCAjwjJjOBRBVEiwAfvnvBCbOxpBYrP7kUxQW5CL_0U5HmYYIHxgPKCxIY2G0be4Wws9jukq0RBoCy5sQAvD_BwE

I found at least one supplier that lists both AC and DC ratings. Mouser.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CK-Components/7101P3YZQE/?qs=mfFuHy8STfLSeTEKSl2BXg%3D%3D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlIeQ6sLA1gIVCYN-Ch2sQACKEAQYAiABEgKf7PD_BwE

also a good article from a guy at Mouser who I have emailed asking for a formula to convert AC rating to DC.

BTW--Mouser seems to publish AC and DC ratings on all of the switches they carry. They have some sub minis that will work but I guess I might as well get to the bottom of this since I've put this much thought into it already.

I knew i recently saw a sub mini somewhere. Ta-DAAA! There's one on my busa's ECU Editor box! Greg Smith would probably have some info to share on this as well.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/25/2017 @ 8:51 AM *

I talked to a DJ guy and he told me they do not even have a spec for amps/volts for a switch that would be used for their map input or pit speed limiter. It probably is so low that the switch rating is not that important...so any old ON/OFF switch oughta work.

Also was told the RevXtend feature is designed so that you can't use a switch because throwing the switch while the bike is running could be dangerous to the system. So what happens if say one of the wires is loose and pulls out by accident? Same thing as a switch, no? Would that result in damage to the system? Might need to get some more info on that. The launch feature sure seems like a switch would work but the guy didn't know.

This small enough? BUT, AC rated.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-Mini-Toggle-Switch-SPDT-On-Off-On-High-Quality-USA-Seller-Get-It-Fast-/231558375187?hash=item35e9f46713:g:b2MAAOSwv0tVUEMh

I found this article at Mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/blog/which-switch-who-cares-if-its-ac-or-dc
so it looks like a/c vs d/c makes about a 20/1 difference in amp rating.

I have an extra one of these mini switchs that you are welcome to have. It might be worth a try with a relay.

Thanks, rv. That's the same article I got my info from and I emailed the author concerning some mathematical formuls to convert AC rating to DC.

A switch rated for 20 amps at 125VAC or (10 amps at 250VAC), would typically have a current rating of less than 1 Amp at 125VDC, and yet the only difference was going from 125 volts AC to 125 volts DC.

So 20/1 if you're talking 125 volts but who ever deals with that many volts on a motorcycle? That's for an industrial application like a crane or something!!

I think it would be foolish to use any old switch for some electronics on the bike such as nitrous because you are sucking 40 amps or more but for small accessories, just about anything should be safe...as far as I can tell from my conversation with DJ today.

That is just the kind of switch I was looking for. 5 mm hole, very nice! I see there are quite a few that are about a quarter inch. I'm going to need a few though and I want them to be just 2 position to avoid confusion. Thank you for your kind offer though. That is great reference for whatever I decide to go with.

OH YEAH! Here we go. You got me on the right trail, rv!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-NEW-SPST-Mini-Toggle-Switch-ON-ON-On-Off-Solder-Lug-USA-SELLER/291436639982?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3Dc8810ae58f604ab29b93f95ba9b19554%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D231558375187&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

20 amps at 125VAC...would typically have a current rating of less than 1 Amp at 125VDC

SO would it follow that you divide the 125 VDC by X to = a 12V motorcycle system? If so, 1A at 125 VDC divided by 10.41 = 12VDC. ..and you should be able to now multiply the amps at 125 V by X?? 1 amp times 10.41 = 10.41 amps. The switch is safe for 10.41 amps at 12V? Just guessing. It's probably more complicated than that but if a switch is only good for 1 amp at 125 volts, it must be good for a lot more amps at 12 volts.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/25/2017 @ 6:25 PM *

Either switch will work, I've been using the Radio Shack SPDT version for heated grips without any issues. A bit of a pain to solder the wires to the small posts in the confined area but it can be done.

Thanks, C14. I suppose heated grips draw a reasonable amount of current too. I'm not getting any definitive answer but it seems to me a switch should be safe at 12 volts DC with half the amps it's rated for at 120 volts AC

Just had a wild idea--if I really want to know how much power is going to flow to the switch, I could buy some kind of a meter to measure the amps, right? Something like this little number for $18 at Walmart?

Rook,
Yes a multimeter will work just fine, easy to use just move the leads to the correct post (in your picture move the red wire to the 20A port before measuring current, or the mA if you get a reading of 0A on the 20A port). There's a lil fuse in the battery compartment of the multimeter to protect the meter's circuitry if you're worried about damaging it.

While I am not an electrical engineer, generally switches are designed for 3 main electrical factors, 1: the desired number of throws/polls (ie, SPST, single pole single throw = a switch with 2 posts, and an on/off so when the switch is on both posts are connected to each other), DPDT, DPTT, etc), 2: the maximum voltage the switch can handle and 3: the maximum current the switch can handle.

Voltage being an electrical potential meaning that, the higher the voltage (potential) the bigger/better the insulator is required to contain the electricity. I would have no concerns whatsoever using a switch rated for 120v AC in a 12v DC application.

Current is the amount of electrons flowing through the switch, current times voltage = power (watts). Technically speaking, a switch rated for 1A @ 120v = 120w = 10A @ 12v. Higher current and LOWER voltage = higher temperatures due to higher resistance from the wires. This is your main limiting factor, bigger wires = lower resistance and higher heat dissipation which could handle higher currents.

So... put these factors together, find a switch rated for AT LEAST 20v (AC/DC don't care), a higher current rating (80% of max is what is recommended, if its an AC switch, I'd go for a 50% rating at most to prevent overheating) and in the configuration that you want (probably a single pole single throw).

Good site for an explanation for switch styles: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/switch-basics/poles-and-throws-open-and-closed

If you're installing this for the map switch, this is most likely just a continuity setting, the PCV checks to see if there is a connection between pins A & B, if none Map 1, if there is continuity Map 2.

Hi, Nightmare. Yes this will be the map switch but I'm also setting up the pit speed limiter switch on the ignition module.

I did happen across that article when searching for a definition of SPST, SPDT, etc. I'll have to give that a more thorough look though.

SP= single pole, DP= double pole. Pole means circuit so a single pole switch connects and disconnects power to only one circuit like the stock the starter button does. A double pole switch controls two circuits such as the left and right turn signals or high/low beam switch does.

ST = single throw, DT = double throw - with single throw, the switch lever/button has a single stop across the entire throw like the high low beam (clicks once up, clicks once down). Double throw, the switch has two stops in its entire throw like the turn signal (from extreme left, clicks twice to extreme right and vice-versa).

There is also ON/ON, ON/OFF, ON/OFF/ON and those refer to what the stops do at the various positions the switch can be placed at. ON/ON would be single throw from one circuit to the other. ON/OFF would be single throw turning a circuit on or off. ON/OFF/ON would be a double throw switch turn on one circuit or the other with a position to turn both off at the center of the throw.

As far as using a switch which has been rated for AC only, here is what Rudy Ramos, the author of that great article had to say in his reply to my email query:

"DC Rule of Thumb

For those switches that list an AC voltage rating only, the "DC Rule of Thumb" can be applied for determining the switch's maximum DC current rating. This "rule" states the highest amperage on the switch should perform satisfactorily up to 30 volts DC. For example, a switch which is rated at 10A 250VAC; 15A 125VAC; 3/4HP 125-250VAC, will be likely to perform satisfactorily at 15 amps up to 30 volts DC (VDC)."

So, whatever the highest amperage rating is for AC, that will also apply to a motorcycle because motorcycles supply 12 volts DC which is a lot less than 30 VDC.

I will not be using using one of these mini switches for my NOS because that is going to have way too many amps but typically the minis are rated for 5 or 6 amps at 125 VAC so at least 5 or 6 for 12VDC, too.

I will ammeter these wires and report someday but for now, I'm sure I'm safe with the cheapies I got off of Amazon. When I figure out exactly what will be in my fuse panel, I may go with some of the better mini switches sold by Mouser. They are a lot more expensive but I'm sure they would be more reliable.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/27/2017 @ 5:22 PM *

I suppose you could do that, since that logic basically means you are only pushing 10% of the power through the switch from what it is designed to handle, for example 120v x 6A = 720w = 12v x 60A. I am in no way recommending running 60A @ 12v through a switch like that, just pointing out that this "DC Rule of Thumb" should be VERY safe and be an easy way to quickly determine what the DC capacity of a switch is.

If you don't already own a multimeter you should pick that one up, for $18 its REALLY cheap. If you've got the $ I would recommend getting an auto-ranging multimeter (you don't have to change the dial from 20 Ohms to 200 Ohms to 2000 Ohms, etc to find the reading for something). They're usually a bit more money but not a lot and although you won't use a multimeter all of the time they are handy to have around.

that logic basically means you are only pushing 10% of the power through the switch from what it is designed to handle, for example 120v x 6A = 720w = 12v x 60A. I am in no way recommending running 60A @ 12v through a switch like that, just pointing out that this "DC Rule of Thumb" should be VERY safe and be an easy way to quickly determine what the DC capacity of a switch is.

Great explanation! Yes 60 amps through a mini switch---you shouldn't do everything just because it is theoretically possible! Good to know my low amp circuits are very safe with the minis though. I got 10 for about $14 on Amazon so we'll see how they react. If they burn out, I'll get better ones.

If you've got the $ I would recommend getting an auto-ranging multimeter

I always thought the limiting factor on a switch was the thickness of its contacts/leads. In that case, 6 amps is 6 amps, ac or dc. Anytime i needed specific parts, i went to digikey.com. I only saw 28v microswitches, but only did a quick search.

Thank you alg8er.

digikey microswitches

I think the switches you are talking about will go unrivaled for smallness! That may even be too small for my purposes. The switches you saw were probably the ones rated for .4 VA which I think is volt amperes. I don't know what volt amperes are but the switches that have that rating are also rated for only 20~28V AC/DC. My guess is .4 VA is very low current like to power one LED or something. This one looks like it is designed to mount by pushing its rubber body through a sheet metal panel. Very, VERY light duty! I had hoped to put a couple switches right in the stock instrument cluster case to either side of the multimeter set buttons. If I have something woth low enough current, those would be the switches to use.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/e-switch/200USP1T1A1M2RE/EG4915-ND/2498453

They do have a really nice assortment of other mini switches including at least one that has laterally pointing contacts. I might give those a shot for my main switch panel in the future. My Main switch panel is going to lay between the bottom of the the tach /speedo to the steering neck/fairing stay so there will be at least an inch under most of that.

Yes VA = Volt-Amperes, its not exactly easy to explain and the VA rating is only applicable for AC circuits. While this might not be 100% accurate as I mentioned earlier I'm not an electrical engineer, the concept of a VA rating is that as Alternating Current (AC) has the voltage of a circuit alternate from +120v to -120v on a 60Hz cycle in a sine wave (think round versus a square wave) form you can have current flow in both directions (from the blue wire to the green wire then from the green wire back to the blue wire). The VA can be thought of as more or less the "useful" power that is consumed in the circuit.

In AC the VA is calculated by multiplying the RMS voltage (the root mean square of the voltage) by the current (amps), for example on a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) 1440VA = 1000W with the averaged power factor of 0.707. In a DC application since current only flows in 1 direction your VA rating is voltage (real) multiplied by current (amps) so 300VA = 300W.

While wikipedia seemed to have a pretty good article on AC power systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power I can honestly say I didn't understand a lot of that page. My impression was its along the lines of the sinusoidal wave of AC power (variable voltage), the resistive load (ie loss by the resistance of the wires) and the active load (ie what the circuit does like move something).

the limiting factor on a switch was the thickness of its contacts/leads

The leads feeding the switch and the contacts inside the switch would be the main limiting factor for how much current the switch can handle. Larger wires/contacts have a lower resistance and able to dissipate heat better so they can handle more current.

The voltage rating for a switch is important, but not really in Rook's application since we're only dealing with 12v, as higher voltage means electricity can arc between conductors more easily. This would be significant in Double Pole Single Throw (or similar switches with 4 or more leads) as with a high enough voltage electricity could jump or arc between conductors.

For example, if you take an ordinary light switch the distance between the contacts when the switch is off might only be 1/4 of an inch which is plenty for a 120V application. If we tried to use the same switch for something ridiculous like 10,000v the electricity would almost certainly be able to jump that gap making the switch useless. Of course at 12v almost anything is a good enough insulator and even a 0.001 air gap is sufficient to prevent arcing so the voltage rating for the switches that Rook is looking for is almost guaranteed to be a non-issue.

Thanks, Nightmare. More food for thought.

as I mentioned earlier I'm not an electrical engineer,

the voltage rating for the switches that Rook is looking for is almost guaranteed to be a non-issue.

This will probably warrant a separate thread but I thought I'd start here since this thread seems to be rolling pretty good.

I want to hook up an LED status light for each switch.

I got my single pole ON/OFF switches and they are just what I hoped for. I also bought one LED light that I thought might work well for a status light. The LED is mounted in a very small threaded housing that secures to a panel with a nut like a toggle switch. Apparently the light already has the resistor in it because the ad says it needs no fuse upgrades---so just negative to ground, positive to any power source. They're a bit expensive and the light itself is about 1/8" in diameter which is somewhat bigger than I was hoping. Considering it's already assembled and easy to install however, I think I'll forgo trying to make my own lights from raw materials.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AFU4QF4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The switches will work great for turning the PC5 and Ignition Module circuits on and off but I was assuming the status light would just splice onto the same switch terminals as the circuit. You know, you have a ground wire come into the switch from the PC5 accessory on one terminal and then a ground wire going out of the switch on the other terminal which actually connects to a ground. Flip the switch, ground makes contact and the accessory which already has a positive source waiting to complete the circuit turns on. I planned to do the same ground to ground routine with the LED using the same terminals as the PC5 accessory. It occurred to me that maybe I should have double pole switches instead of splicing the LED to the same terminals as the accessory.

Should I use double pole switches instead so the accessory and the LED have separate circuits or can I double them up onto one circuit?

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/8/2017 @ 12:24 AM *

I would think the single with the LED in series. You want the light on to know if a function/mode is enabled right?