In series, yes...that was was what I meant when I said "splice to the same terminal."

So in this way, the LED will share one of the same terminals as the function/mode the switch is turning ON/OFF.

I could use a 2 pole switch with function/mode on one pole and LED on the other and that would tell me if the switch was ON or OFF but it would not tell me if the function/mode circuit was definitely working, would it--

SO yeah, in series, "splice" whatever you want to call it, that is how this should be done, right? No different really than using a toggle switch with a built in LED so it should work just fine, YES?

Here's what I mean just so we know we are talking about the same thing. I'm not actually certain yet if the clutch switch wire is a ground or positive but I am pretty sure it must be ground. If the clutch switch wire is positive, obviously I will need to reverse polarities on the LED connections. I'd hook the red wire from the LED to the switch and ground the LED's black wire to the frame. But before we get ahead of ourselves, here it is.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/8/2017 @ 9:21 PM *

..and I know I said "before we get ahead of ourselves," rudy but incase it piqued your curiosity, NO, Ignition Module Launch Control was not meant to have a switch. It is controlled by the clutch switch so what I'm doing is putting a switch on a switch. Seems like Launch Control could be intrusive for higher rpm downshifts using the clutch if you need to blip higher than the set limit so I want to switch it on/off as needed. I asked DJ and he said putting a toggle switch in there would be ok.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/8/2017 @ 9:29 PM *

I got my switches for the PC5 and Ignition Module all set. Just about any mini toggle switch with metal bat handle you find on Ebay or Amazon will be the same thing. I ordered three different kinds and all look the same.

Now for the nitrous arm switch and the purge button, I'd like to use minis again but minis are usually not for high amps.

Just to get it straight, when I throw the nitrous arm switch or purge button or spray button, depending on the solenoid I'm using, I will be drawing 40 to 90 amps and it needs to go through that switch, right?

Quick look on Google and switches listed as "nitrous" switches are rated for no more than 40 amps. Many do not have a rating. The ones sold under a brand name like NOS, NX or Zex don't even list the rating.

I REALLY don't want to take any chances with a switch for a higher amp circuit. Which way do I go here?

Someone mentioned a relay before I think. would that be a good way to go? What's a relay do to make high amps safe for a switch rated for lower amps? ...or am I headed down the wrong path?

90 amps ... you sure? at 12 Vdc that well over 1000 watts. The magical smoke is bound to appear somewhere. Anyway, a relay is the typical component to use a low current switch to trip a high current circuit. Because NOX has been around a long time I'm sure there are lots of lessons learned in that world as to the "accepted" switch/relay circuit. What are you driving that need 1 KW? a high pressure pump? I thought the bottle was pressurized.

90 amps ... you sure? at 12 Vdc that well over 1000 watts.

What are you driving that need 1 KW? a high pressure pump? I thought the bottle was pressurized.

I see some nitrous control centers with mini switches so it must be possible. Maybe they have a relay under the panel. I'll have to contact Dyno-Tune about this. Thanks for the explanation of a relay. Any further suggestions are welcome. I'll update the thread with what I hear from Dyno-Tune.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/21/2017 @ 9:01 PM *

Hey Rook,

The switch/LED that you have drawn up above would still be considered a parallel circuit, as both terminals of the LED are in parallel to the battery, a series circuit would be something like:

+BAT+>>>LIGHT1>>>LIGHT2>>>-BAT-

Parallel:

+BAT+>>>LIGHT1>>>-BAT-
........|>>LIGHT2>>|
(ignore the ..... the forum deleted my spaces)

You would still want a single pole single throw switch, if you can't solder both wires to the terminal on the switch, just solder 1 length of wire to it, the solder both wires to that length (called a pig tail).

A solenoid is simple an electromagnet that opens and closes something (in this case a valve, for a starter system, it completes the power circuit to the starter, etc). 90A is WAAAAAAY too much current for a solenoid, that's starter motor territory, for the fun of it I checked how big of a wire you'd need to run 12v@90A for 7 feet. You would need a 00AWG wire :D

I didn't look with great detail, but this NOS solenoid I found draws 8.6A which is more in line with what I would expect.
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nos-18045nos/overview/

* Last updated by: Nightmare on 10/23/2017 @ 7:36 AM *

cruderudy's description of a relay

a relay is the typical component to use a low current switch to trip a high current circuit

This is spot on, but here's a bit more detail about what a relay is and how it works:

Using the starter circuit as an example, the low current switch would be the starter button, this completes the low current circuit from the battery to the starter solenoid (which is actually a relay). When the circuit is completed by the button, the solenoid fires and completes the high current circuit from the battery to the starter motor.

Using the above diagram (ignore the second part of the picture "This relay turns OFF" as its confusing and irrelevant for this discussion), wires labeled 85 & 86 would be connected to your mini toggle switch, as long as that switch is in the "ON" position, electricity will flow from terminal 85, through the electromagnet to terminal 86 and back to the battery. When this happens, the magnet will cause the switch at the top of the relay to close. This allows power to flow from terminal 30 to terminal 87 which in your case would go from the battery to terminal 07 to terminal 30 to the NOS solenoid back to the battery/ground.

* Last updated by: Nightmare on 10/23/2017 @ 8:46 AM *

Thanks, Nighhtmare.

As usual these things become 10 x more complicated than you thought after you've gotten halfway into them.

I could use a 2 pole switch with function/mode on one pole and LED on the other and that would tell me if the switch was ON or OFF but it would not tell me if the function/mode circuit was definitely working, would it--

You would still want a single pole single throw switch, if you can't solder both wires to the terminal on the switch, just solder 1 length of wire to it, the solder both wires to that length (called a pig tail).

It turns out I will need a double pole ON/OFF switch, one pole switching the ignition module circuit ground to the clutch sensor switch and the other pole switching the light ground to the frame. You see, the function of the ignition module circuit is Launch Control. Pull the clutch lever, clutch switch closes ground, IM circuit is closed, Launch Control is in effect. The circuit is closed ONLY when the clutch lever is pulled and the circuit opens again when the lever is fully released. I am putting a toggle switch in the circuit to completely disable Launch Control when it's not needed. If my light were to be connected to the same pole as the Launch Control circuit, the light would only come on when I pulled the clutch lever. A light that is always on when the toggle switch is thrown ON would be better. Since the clutch sensor switch needs to close ground after the toggle switch has been closed, I can't use that circuit to light the light until the clutch lever is pulled. So looks like I will need a pole for the light and a pole for Launch Control.

AHha! I see how a relay works. Thanks.

I'm glad you guys are around. This is turning out to be a really good thread. The DJ guy is getting tired of my emails, I think. I was asking him if it was safe to ground 1 or two LEDs to the module's ground input along with the wire that is normally grounded there. His response was, "I can’t say I’ve ever tried that. Why don’t you find out, and let me know." So "let me know" is "did your PC5 melt?" I'm sure it's fine. One LED draws about .02 amp.

We've talked about the map switch and the launch control switch and both of those have some minor complexities when it comes to status lights.

The speed limiter switch should be really straightforward. A simple ON/OFF switch that grounds both the LED and the speed limiter feature to the Ignition Module.

I initially planned to use a city light as a power source for the LEDs grounding them to the module via switch. Why not use power from the input wire to power the LEDS?? Can you do that? Tap power off a ground wire?

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/23/2017 @ 12:30 PM *

I'm going to say YES. Infact, the only reason I'm not going to use the LED wires as THE only wire to the switch from input 1 is that the LED wire has just a single strand of copper in it. I'll go with the 22 gauge for a main wire and run the LED wire along with it as shown in the last pic.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/23/2017 @ 10:03 PM *

Actually, it's not just a single stran now that I stripped it but it is a lot smaller than the 22-24 gauge wire recommended by DJ. I think it would work though. There can't be much current flowing through a Ignition module circuit. There might not even be enough to light that LED up real bright! Why not just try hooking the red LED wire to the ground terminal on the switch and the black to the ground input on the Ignition Module? That way, the LED would become the ground wire. Sounds nice and neat and clean to me. That 26 gauge wire should handle the power from the ignition module circuit, wouldn't you think? We're talking a circuit board here FCOL!

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/23/2017 @ 10:08 PM *

The DJ dude said I could probably get by with 26 gauge wire. I'll just connect the LED between the switch and the module's ground port and that will be my ground wire/status light.

For various reasons, some of the other switches will require power from some other source rather than taking the power directly from the circuit. That won't truly show the status of the circuit but it will verify that the switch handle is in the ON position. I'll get to those next.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/24/2017 @ 10:24 AM *

I have this all figured out now. Should work but I need to do some testing first so it'll be a while still.

It would be nice to have the whole array of LEDS flash for a couple seconds when the ignition is turned on. Any ideas for a circuit I could tap into for this? It would have to be a circuit that powered up with the ignition switch and then shut OFF shortly after.

The oil pressure light would work but all of my LEDs would stay on until the oil pressure light went out. Not too good because I would like to see which switches are actually on before hitting the starter.

The fuel pump prime would be fine.

The speedo tach sweep seems a bit too fast (not to mention hard to find the wire) but I guess it would work.

Any others?

It would be nice to have the whole array of LEDS flash for a couple seconds when the ignition is turned on. Any ideas for a circuit I could tap into for this?

^^That is on the back burner for now. I see brake light flashers online that would work to achieve this effect.

More importantly, I need to know what a fuse does---exactly. I assumed that a fuse slowed down the power that comes into the fuse so that amperage was low enough to NOT burn out the device the circuit was powering. Also, if there was a strong surge of power from the battery for some reason, the fuse would burn out rather than let the surge enter the device. That's correct, isn't it? You don't want to just hook a low amp device straight to the battery or the device will burn out.

What would happen in the example I illustrated below? I'm going to say the lightbulb won't have enough power to light up. It draws more amps than the fuse will deliver so there won't be enough power to light it up.

Or is it the other way around? Will the device try to draw 40 amps off the 2 amp fuse and this will cause the fuse to burn out?

Of course I know a lightbulb isn't going to draw 40 amps. That is just for illustrative purposes. It's just the LEDs which will be powered off of the city lights and ground into the modules' ground inputs that I am concerned about. I don't want to fry the PC5 and Ignition Module incase the full 15 volts from the headlights circuit should somehow travel through the LEDs into the digital grounds in the modules.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/16/2017 @ 6:00 PM *

A fuse doesn't slow the power down, it just melts when too much power goes through it. A circuit drawing too much power through the fuse causes the fuse to melt, not too much power being slowed down and trapped in the fuse. The fuse doesn't lower the amperage as I had previously thought, it just melts if too much power goes through it. The device draws as much amperage as it does and the fuse reacts to that amperage, not the fuse allowing a certain amperage and the device reacting to it.

So the fuse in my picture up above would burn because the device is sucking too much power.

I can test the amperage of the circuit that normally would flow between the switch input and the input ground and test the amperage of the LEDs. If the LEDs draw a lot more power than the inputs on the module, I guess I will be grounding the LEDs somewhere else. If the LEDs have low enough current to ground to the module inputs, it still would be smart to use a fuse inline with the LEDs incase the LED wires short or something weird like that.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/16/2017 @ 6:58 PM *

Hey Rook,

You are correct about how a fuse works (melts when too much power goes through it), a fuse really just is a thin gauge wire that the manufacturer knows will melt at a specific wattage. The main idea behind them is to protect the entire circuit from too much power, typically a sudden surge in voltage (ie lightning strike), short circuit or component failure. The size of the fuse needs to be slightly bigger than the most sensitive/vulnerable component of that circuit, typically I would expect this to be the wire itself as the other components such as the LED aren't sensitive.

If you have a 26 gauge wire and try to run 30A@12v through it you will melt and burn that wire, so a fuse will protect the wire in this case. If the fuse is too small for the wire and all of the components connected to the wire than you will blow the fuse all of the time. So, a fuse needs to be the right size, too big you melt the wire, too small you blow a fuse constantly. The PCV will have a pretty constant power draw, lets say 1A@12v, I would probably put a 2A (or 1.5A) fuse to protect that component as if the PCV is drawing 3A there's probably a problem and I want to try and protect that circuit by cutting power to it.

Where I'm going with all of this is: You are thinking about connecting a few other components to the ground circuit/wire of the PCV. This circuit is most likely NOT protected by a fuse since typically fuses are placed as close to the power source (battery) as possible and the return wire is as large or larger than the source wire so is unlikely to melt first.

You could connect a fuse to the ground wire, making sure that it is sized small enough to protect the wire itself however if this is a common wire to the LEDs + PCV and the fuse blows you will lose power to your engine which could be very dangerous depending on when and where that happens. I personally prefer to just run a new ground wire from the frame and connect all of these LEDs to that, if you are using a common source (positive) wire, use a fuse on that wire only.

The PCV will have a pretty constant power draw, lets say 1A@12v, I would probably put a 2A (or 1.5A) fuse to protect that component as if the PCV is drawing 3A there's probably a problem and I want to try and protect that circuit by cutting power to it.

My fuse rating estimate is close to yours. I was thinking no bigger than 3 amps. The DJ tech told me AutoTune does not need an inline fuse but a 5 amp should be fine if I am making a dedicated circuit for it. Installation instructions for Autotune say the tail light is a good source for power so a circuit with lower amperage is probably better than a high one. The PC5 and ignition module are powered off of the connection to the main wiring harness at the throttle bodies so there is no guesswork there. Plug it in and don't worry about a fuse. I'm less concerned about the power for the DJ modules since they seem to be designed to be fairly plug and play when it comes to the electrical work necessary to install them. It is the switches that connect to the inputs I'm concerned about. Normally, you just run a wire from Input 1 to Input 1 (Ground). The power is already there in the module and you are just closing the circuit to ground. Some of my switches will carry extra power that never was in the module in the first place. For example, I have an LED to indicate Map 2 and another to indicate Map 1. Map 2 is the ON position so I can use the power from the switch input to light the LED as the power flows through the switch to the switch input ground. Easy. Map 1 however is the OFF position so the map switch circuit will be open. If I want an LED to indicate Map 1, I need to get the power from the city lights which I believe is on the 15 amp Headlights Low Beam circuit. If I ground the LEDs that are powered off of the city lights to the modules, there is a chance 15 amps could flow through the module and obviously I want to avoid that. I'm sure the amount of power that normally goes through those little switch inputs into the tiny circuit boards is just milliamps. I trust a few 2 milliamp LEDs will not overload the digitals grounds in the modules but better to be safe than sorry. I ordered a multimeter and I'm testing the switch input amperage and the LED amperage. If the combined amperage of the the LED(s) is more than 30% of the normal current in the switch input, I will probably just ground the LEDs to the city lights negative wire. I guess most people would choose some ground other than the switch input ground but I like the idea of at least grounding them to the module if the power is can't be drawn from them. That way, if something is wrong with the module, chances are the LEDs won't come on. Of course, I don't want to have the LEDs be the source of the problem if the module should end up getting cooked. LOL an indicator light on the switch to tell you when the switch has destroyed the module!

You are thinking about connecting a few other components to the ground circuit/wire of the PCV. This circuit is most likely NOT protected by a fuse since typically fuses are placed as close to the power source (battery) as possible

Agreed. Why would DJ put a fuse before the switch input grounds if there is already a resistor (or something similar) where the power comes into the module? They didn't design their product to have any other power come in other than what is intended to power the module.

You could connect a fuse to the ground wire, making sure that it is sized small enough to protect the wire itself however if this is a common wire to the LEDs + PCV and the fuse blows you will lose power to your engine which could be very dangerous depending on when and where that happens.

All of the LEDs that require an outside power source are not drawing power off the module so if the fuse blows, it will not effect operation of the modules.

I personally prefer to just run a new ground wire from the frame and connect all of these LEDs to that, if you are using a common source (positive) wire, use a fuse on that wire only.

Yeah, most people would. I might end up doing that after all.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/17/2017 @ 4:30 PM *

Here's how this project is going.

I have my modules installed all up front behind the ram air below the instruments.

I have all the stuff I need to hook up switches and was about to take that step but thought I better have the place to mount them set up so there will be no question about how long to make the wires.

So I made a template of the bottom contour of the instrument cluster. This panel will overlap the flat bottom edge of the multimeter by about an eighth inch. The arcs will fit to the speedo and tach. There is enough spaceto fit my four DJ switches across the top.

The piece on the left has some arcs swung across it in black marker. That is where the ignition passes above the panel when the steering is turned. As you can see, relocating the ignition and cutting off the the whole part it mounts into on the top triple clamps will free up space for nitrous switches.

There is a lot more clearance on the LH side when the steering is at full lock. The rounded out cut at the bottom is where the fork comes to. The RH side has the throttle cable and that comes right to that corner I cut the 90 degree for. I am sure I can move the throttle cable an inch and it will clear. The template on the right is the shape I plan to go with except it will be closer to the height of the one on the left. That's all the space you got up there.

The meter bracket has two long bolts that pass through it where it mounts to the steering neck. I will use the top one to secure the bottom of the switch panel. There are bolts up in front on the meter bracket that could secure the top of the panel but I have another idea I like better if it works.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/24/2017 @ 10:14 PM *

I came up with this, the Rook Coffinbox switch panel! This is how we'll go. 1/16" aluminum. I have plans for M2 screws that will hold it down to a box that will enclose the switches below the panel + hold relay and wiring. Also plan to have slash cut tubes that enclose the LEDs so that hopefully they will be more visible in daylight. This will fasten to the front and rear meter bracket bolts. For now, I think I will just make the plate and save the box for later.

I will just be putting in the top row for now. No way to fit lower switches without relocating the ignition. A toggle ignition and starter button will eventually be mounted on the RH side of the box.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/1/2018 @ 1:04 PM *

Nice

Sure seems like a lot going on when you are traveling mach .25 flipping switches and spraying NOX with one hand on the bars? Make sure you take video when you launch this beast later this year.

Sure seems like a lot going on when you are traveling mach .25 flipping switches and spraying NOX with one hand on the bars?

It will be color coded. Anything that does not have a blue LED MUST be shut off before you hit the NOx button. That is only Pit Speed Limiter and AutoTune. So it's look---Any lights NOT blue? Shut it off. All lights blue? OK for takeoff! The arm switch and purge will have a small lock on them.

Make sure you take video when you launch this beast later this year.

The project moves on. The CoffinLid mockup with switches and LEDs installed! I'm going to the bike to do a test fit. The 6 lights across the top would not work as planned in the last pic. There is a small nob in each corner where the edge of the speedo/tach meet the horizontal edge between them. The nobs (they're probably screw bosses for the multifunction meter case) were blocking the outermost LEDs. I opted to go with 4 LEDS across the top and move 5 and 6 out to the side points on the plate.

Fits. Might look a little crooked but that's just the wad of wires sticking out in the back pressing against the meter bracket. It will mount to a bracket fastened to the top rear meter bracket bolt which is the flanged hex head you see in the lower RH corner of the pic on the Right.

You can see Kawasaki engineered their product to fit my designs once again. Look at how nicely the bottom of that ignition cylinder is beveled to clear my switch plate! It's almost a shame I will have to relocate the ignition but I always wanted a toggle switch and button off the handlebars for those anyway.

Looks more like a face now.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/24/2018 @ 12:49 PM *

I like the cosmetics for sure...

Thanks, Chrly. I sort of planned to have the LEDs enclosed in short visors with smoked lenses for the finished piece but all I want now is to get this up and running. I might just hit the LEDs with colored Sharpie for this one because I don't think the white dots will look good on a black panel. I'll work on the actual whole thing with the visors and box underneath at a later date. Maybe not until next year.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/24/2018 @ 7:25 PM *

Looks more like a face now.

Yeah... just a little...