if yannih is right... Note that currently I leave my O2 sensor there -did not plug it into the exhaust but the problem exists.

Very Interesting.

WITH THE O2 SENSOR DISCONNECTED FROM YOUR EXHAUST BUT STILL CONNECTED TO THE WIRING CONNECTOR

The ping is in play is that timer and no fueling is altered, but a ping in play due to the jobber(02).

THE BIKE WILL STILL HESITATE IN GEARS 4, 5 AND 6

So ping wise, the 02 is just a loop and now the flash shows ???. So stock, if you set the 02 outside, eventually the light comes on. Did the same thing when I tried that with the ape and its own 02. It ran the stoic as if not even pulled, goes right into 760mmHg default and there was no difference in gears. Why it's interesting.

IF YOU UNPLUG THE O2 SENSOR FROM THE WIRING CONNECTOR THE ISSUE WILL STOP AND THE BIKE WILL THEN RUN SMOOTHLY.

WOW, a jobber influence but non when removed. Interesting. It now overrides and back to method no analog, go to digital... or, no good known (analog) signal, revert to (digital) backup(limp).

---

Thanks a lot Yannih,
If not for this thread you started I probably would leave the bike that way, with a defect flash due to different spec and not knowing its flashed potential until now. Today I try my bike with O2 sensor disconnect from the bike ( instead of leaving it there on the air as suggested by Brock's customers service) and as you stated , the orange engine light are on all the time. The bike run smoother than I run it after the manuever. I felt little better performance ( better throttle response I guess). My mod is power commander PCV with Brock's Guhl 2 flash . As stated by Untamed an O2 optimiser/ eliminator might not or will work. I will leave that option for now. The next option will be plug the O2 sensor into the exhaust, that means it will override the flash or power commander fuel maps--another word back to stock form of fuel map right? I like to see the difference in performance in this way. I will ask my mechanic to make an adapter to fit the O2 sensor into the titanium exhaust , but I will be riding the bike for weeks before I try this.
By running this flash for months (with stutter at 4,5,6 gear around 3-4krpm) I found thick carbon build up at the exhaust and my mechanic said I run with too rich fuel. I have air filter from Brock too hopefully increase air flow will resulted in better combustion but in vain. When I change my spark plugs with shorter interval than my first changed (for reason to solve this problem) I found that the spark is much dirty with carbon build up. The last thing I felt about the changes is a decrease in performance over this few months but I cannot substantiate this. Maybe I grew stronger so I felt it slower ( Ha! Ha! I am 46 , not suppose to happen ) and more accustom to its power that I need H2 for for upgrade. (The bike now has over 26000km odometer. ) Bought this beast 26k US dollars in 2012. While I hesitate, 50 units reserves of H2 for Taiwan was fully booked in 2 days and each sold 46k US dollars. Until now not a single H2 even hit the ground in Taiwan.
Yannih if not intrusive may I ask the company that flash your ECU in Sydney and for how much it charge for average customer? I might actually have a friend to help me if I need to flash my ECU in Australia---just in case .
My email is lsh30@yahoo.com ( Small capital L for lsh not ish.)
Thank you again.

The next option will be plug the O2 sensor into the exhaust, that means it will override the flash or power commander fuel maps--another word back to stock form of fuel map right?

Who has tried keeping the 02 radio click alone? Might the flash and that move cause the 02 to happen still or clear the 4-5-6?

I like to see the difference in performance in this way.

You had to do what you had to do so live with it. Run all your tests and figure it out. NOLTTouch it and look at the mess. Do the work, work it out with you and your wallet. This is a different animal so you have to know something going in if you want to tune more out of it; not detune it.

I will ask my mechanic to make an adapter to fit the O2 sensor into the titanium exhaust , but I will be riding the bike for weeks before I try this.

Ride it forever like that. Wear out the spark plug holes no problem changing out the soot.

By running this flash for months (with stutter at 4,5,6 gear around 3-4krpm) I found thick carbon build up at the exhaust and my mechanic said I run with too rich fuel.

Well, sounds like a 'Lake Bike'... lake full of fuel, you just had to jump in the lake with the rest. Carbon builds around the spark plug threads, this sometimes tears up the threads taking them out.

When I change my spark plugs with shorter interval than my first changed

Yep, NOLTTake them out, NGK will love you. Heli-coils coming. A moving economy no matter where you turn, I mean spin, no torque? Anyway, keep the wallet handy, you're going to need it.

(for reason to solve this problem)

I think there is only one solve or choose either option. Stay stock and have full power, change plugs 20k from now, it's going to spark when untampered with. Make the wrong move, it's now a compromise.

I found that the spark is much dirty with carbon build up.

That's not carbon, that is 'lake lily,' as in; little life left to it. It was a spark jump. I think carbon is in a resistance movement? Keeps the spark from jumping. E is a magnetic field is outside the wire, outside the spark plug, so surface [resistance] counts. The molecules (heat) moving inside the wire, bang into the carbon, no jump, but there has to be a hole [path] thru the carbon so foul it goes; deeper down with less carbon layer. My magnetic/resistance applied so it makes sense to me in my world.

The last thing I felt about the changes is a decrease in performance over this few months but I cannot substantiate this.

I can. Lean is mean. So you are not even close is yes, you do feel a change. The sensor is removed just to stop the rich ping already to slow you down? Right? Sensor removed, "we take measures."

Signed,

Your PH is who is swimming in the pool with their dog? You know how much chlorine it takes to get the balance back? If it were a lake near a kennel (cough) specializes in duck! Incoming!!! Who put the bop in the bomp shoe bummer! "Foul so bad you walk the thing home."

Lake Shore... Drive it home is due North!

---

. "The next option will be plug the O2 sensor into the exhaust, that means it will override the flash or power commander fuel maps--another word back to stock form of fuel map right?"

lee, I think you are missing the point.

There is every chance your flash and PCV are fine and always have been.
You simply cannot leave an 02 sensor connected if you have a flash or PCV otherwise the hesitation issue will occur.
If you reconnect the O2 sensor to your bike it will NOT run stock. You will still have flash and PCV fueling in the parameters that the O2 sensor does not affect (gears 1, 2, 3 and high rpm ranges).
The O2 sensor only affects gears 4, 5 and 6 and certain lower rpm ranges.
Its why you felt the hesitation only in those parameters while it was connected.
It will be your time and money wasted if you reconnect and the hesitation will start again.

Again, if you want a flashed ECU or to use a PCV and have a bike with an O2 sensor on it, you must remove the O2 sensor so it does not over ride the new fueling in certain parameters.
This is standard.
I just wish my flasher would have told me at the very beginning so I would have been saved hours of worry and effort.

There is nothing wrong with your bike now you have removed the O2 sensor. The flash and PCV can now do what they are designed to without interruption.

The only reason you would reconnect the O2 sensor is if you removed the PCV and flashed the ECU back to 100% factory settings.

Stock fueling = 02 sensor connected = no hesitation
Flashed ECU / PCV added = O2 sensor removed = no hesitation

As Hub said, ride the bike now and enjoy it.
As long as the flash and PCV settings are good, its fine now...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/7/2015 @ 3:14 PM *

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Thanks , Yannih you are most helpful.
Thanks Hub, though I have to read your post over and over again yet I believe I am not completely understand what you said, but I humbly take your ( tease) ,should not take my dog into the pool ? Ha, Ha! If that what you meant.
I still not understand is, the bike run without hesitation with Brock's Guhl flash and PCV with stock exhaust and the O2 sensor inserted. The problem exist only after I upgrade to Brock exhaust which do not have O2 sensor insertion hole (have a bung though) and I leave the O2 sensor on the air . Weird !

I accidentally found... hold on my throttle at around 3k-4k rpm at gear 4 and let the bike stutter for about several hundred meters... before the bike act like it is going to choke to die it run smooth again. After this manuever there is no stutter for gear 4,5,6 anymore.

Man, not the bucking I've encountered. Nasty when it happens. I must have been grandpa napping at the monitor, missed this one.

[/q]I have no idea after recalibrate by its own the bike is gaining any horsepower compare to stock but I believe it is not.[/q]
Either that or you revved the engine high enough to clean the soot off? That calibration lookup map sounds more logical; you didn't float the valves kind of high enough rpm to clean things up.

the bike run without hesitation with Brock's Guhl flash and PCV with stock exhaust and the O2 sensor inserted.

I have no clue what was done to the flash, but does not sound like yannih's problem. So yes, install the 02 back in the exhaust as if the stock pipe was on. Because that was all that you changed was one thing and the hez is not in play in pipe, but out of pipe there is a hez.

The problem exist only after I upgrade to Brock exhaust which do not have O2 sensor insertion hole (have a bung though) and I leave the O2 sensor on the air. Weird !

No, not weird at all. The 02 reads analog or a wet or dry kind of rich or lean condition. So if you instantly open the throttle, a lot of unspent gas will wet or run rich and the 02 will be cooled off. So this heat cooling and warming is many or said another way, is in analog with many heat ranges. With the 02 in the ambient air; let's say 28°C out all day long. That is blowing in the air at a steady degree. No up and down temp so it turned into a single signal, or a digital signal. No [good known signal] input to the ECU and it self backs up to a safe way of running.

So digital means 1 and the sensor is sending in a single number in all the time. We could diagnose it as if 1)short to ground. 2)connector not connected. 3)signal out of range. Only 3 moves it makes, so 3 it is. With the Signal Out Of Range sending in digital, it sure is not analog. Make sense?

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Hub, for the very first time Im not sure I agree with you.

If lee goes to the effort of drilling into his Brocks exhaust and re inserting the O2 sensor, I have no doubt the hesitation will come back.

I had the same issue with the O2 sensor installed into my Yoshi R-77's.
Removed it and all was resolved.

However I cant explain no hesitation issues with the standard pipe setup.
Im wondering if the stock pipes have something the aftermarkets don't that's making the difference.
Cat present maybe?
Specific position of O2 sensor point maybe?

I don't know.

If lee's bike is now running fine after the issues he had, and he wont be riding with substantial elevation changes all the time, why change it?
If he reinserts the O2 sensor, what is there to gain?
Even if the hesitation does not start again?

But if lee does decide to go to the trouble of reinserting the O2 sensor, I really hope I am wrong...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/8/2015 @ 1:45 AM *

---

Hub, for the very first time Im not sure I agree with you... I have no doubt the hesitation will come back.

Here's the deal, yannih... I am of the assumption that Don did not copy the way others flash? Just restrictions and rpm options? No toggling off of the 02. I don't know if that option pops up on his software? You can however toggle the wooly and this option to disable 02.

So I assume no radio click, so it is as simple as going to your dash and upping the rpm limit, other options but no flip-flopping of an 02 radio click and now flash. So as the 02 hangs outside zip-tied to ground on my ape, sure enough, she codes. I install the 02 back in, she clears the dash.

I'm also assuming that since the 02 was working when installed with the stock pipe, remember where that cat honeycomb is? The 02 stamping on the western header is just that... closed = Bungless. So the 02 will sit forward of the cat; as if no cat in an aftmkt pipe = Same Read w/no check engine light [is lee's].

I'm going to assume that this dual 4-5-6 action can happen with and without the toggling of the 02. The obvious is how the 02 sits outside, I have to assume there is a heat to signal factor... Don't mess with magnetic-heat-resistance = Movements made thru heat. So I think I explained the 02's heat exchange.

Remember here, I am gathering movements in that 02, movements without the 02. I am watching an open loop reaction to a closed loop reaction. Let's assume the position:

Flash w/02 disable = Whatever was going back and forth between you ad your flasher, I'm going to assume [correct me if wrong] that there are only 2 basic moves? So if this ECU of yours was being sent back and forth and the 02 was disabled [yes or no so watch] is that yours had to be disconnected to run without the 5-6 thing. Connected it hesitated, disconnected it did not. So this radio click to the 02 and connector disconnect of the 02 removes the hez.

Flash w/02 able = Is the combo of flash that did not hez in 4-5-6. The 02 is reading pre-cat. The 02 is not radio clicked off, [or is capable of = Don?], and now assume this is not available to Don, unless Don signs up and states otherwise, a little birdie told Smoke so, etc. If I walk with my 02 being cooled off via air passing is the ambient at speed is now a constant cooling of the 1 signal = BACKUP appears.

Where do we stand? I stand corrected if Don toggled the 02 off. Then show me how the who did watt and I see a difference, prove me wrong, WATT am I missing with 2 moves? You toggle on and toggle off and walk that out step for step. I am handcuffed to 2 moves. I have to logically think I toggle this way, this only happens? I leave toggle alone, this flashes as if in open loop; is now the correct way to flash is how Don's flashed it? It did not hez in the upper 3 gears, but Cblast did what to watt and no matter how you look at it...

... Plugged in w/flash = 02 is equal to open loop with no hez and all 'various' parts in the loop.

Flashed ?? [I can't keep up don't get old] the 02 removed is free of the hez and the 'various' is out of the loop = Backup.

I'm stuck with 2 moves:

Full = No codes present, all analog sensor attached in a closed loop kind of one whole loop is having all sensors sending in 'analog = many signals.'

Backup = Sensor is not in the loop. I walk up to the troubleshooting counter and yuck, what a tiny menu.
1. Short to ground beef sandwich is not me, I'm a vegan...lol.
2. Signal out of range cattle soup is a can of worms now, because I'll have a bowl of dishit.
3. Connector disconnected salad and signal soup and dishit sure tastes better having backup bread for dipping.

Conclusion? Smells like disconnect, tastes like signal out of range, peppered tree is I'll order a number 2 and a 3.
The question is? Is it in backup or not?

Hello, Donnyboy? Oh, Donnie kins, toggle me boy oh boy watt a mess this is turning out to be. Someone needs to get a handle on all dishithandle it already!

Signed,

I told you, you better figure out the computer bike or else you just pick your nose, pick your ass, pick a part, detune the world's [was] fastest.

---

I am answering from my experience with the flash I had when these hesitation issues occurred.

"You can however toggle the wooly and this option to disable 02."
My flash entailed the O2 sensor box being ticked (or so I was told) with no resolution. My understanding is this only stops the dash code. It does not cater for the actual 02 sensor to remain connected. I admit other flashers other than the one I had could very well be different.

" So as the 02 hangs outside zip-tied to ground on my ape, sure enough, she codes. I install the 02 back in, she clears the dash."
Agreed, but in my opinion the hesitation also starts again.

"Flash w/02 disable = Whatever was going back and forth between you ad your flasher, I'm going to assume [correct me if wrong] that there are only 2 basic moves? So if this ECU of yours was being sent back and forth and the 02 was disabled [yes or no so watch] is that yours had to be disconnected to run without the 5-6 thing. Connected it hesitated, disconnected it did not. So this radio click to the 02 and connector disconnect of the 02 removes the hez."
No. The hesitation happened for me and my new flash. I returned the ECU. While the ECU was back in the hands of the flasher, I advised I believed it was O2 sensor related. I was told it was not as that had been switched off at the flash level. Got the ECU back and still hesitated. Removed the 02 sensor and all was corrected.

If you look at the facts, lee had a stock pipe with flash and 02 sensor connected with no hesitation.
He then changed to after market pipes and got hesitation in gears 4, 5 and 6 at certain rpm.
He them disconnected the 02 sensor and all cleared.
What changed?
Not the flash.
It was the pipes...

My conclusion is using flashed ECU's, PCV's and after market pipes must have the 02 sensor removed from the loop completely or hesitations will occur (my experience also confirms this).
My question is what is different between stock and after market pipes to cause no hesitation with stock and hesitation with after market when flashed and 02 sensor connected?

"oh boy watt a mess this is turning out to be"
Hub, Could not agree more with you on this one.
Wish I never played around with this in the first place and left my ECU 100% stock...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/8/2015 @ 2:32 PM *

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Wish I never played around with this in the first place and left my ECU 100% stock...

Damn, Yannih, I feel bad for ya bro. Your opinion does reinforce what I posted earlier in Vic's flash vs no-flash comparison thread:

After all these recent flash threads, I say HOLY CRAP.

Think I'll stay flash-free and avoid problems.

Good luck to those who proceed, tho

Problems from no performance gains (or even performance loss) to running / hesitating problems to "which version ECU do I have?" to ECU bricks ... and the IMHO high cost of flashing = YIKES.

---

Thank Extra.
This is just my opinion and I stand by it from my personal flashing experience plus reading all the possible related inconsistencies.
But Im sure there are many very happy flashed customers out there so there is always two sides to the story.

You get guys like Ivan and Romans coming to the table no matter whether things are good or bad and trying to help with honest and helpful information, but others go MIA when things get tough and negative.
Really a shame for the reputation of flashing...

But live and learn.
At least there is a lot more information out there now.

Plus people are starting to come forward with their own questionable stories and results which wasn't really happening before.

I really do think people are starting to realize who the quality/honest flashers are and that's a good thing...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/12/2015 @ 7:52 AM *

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I can add a dyno chart to my website showing just the gains from my flash alone.

So if Ivan took on flash work, there has to be something there. Wait for the charts on his site... after the season ends.

---

Yanman said..."I was told to block off one of the pair valves to correct air flow and all flashes required this."....no,they do NOT require a block off of anything.Mine has no tampering.The flash is excellent.On mine anyway.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/12/2015 @ 6:21 AM *

So Green, why the flying f*#k was I told this?
By the flasher no less!
I don't expect you to answer but you see what I am getting at...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/12/2015 @ 7:59 AM *

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I was told to block off one of the pair valves to correct air flow and all flashes required this. No resolution.

Let me read this correctly so the abstract makes sense. I have 4 ports, 2 inlets. "I was told to block off the left side inlet, I was told to block off the right side inlet?' I'd like to have more detail on which side? I don't know which side of my face I should begin smirking on what side first?

So Green, why the flying f*#k was I told this?
By the flasher no less!
I don't expect you to answer but you see what I am getting at...

I sure do. I flatline the fuck missed reading that one. Unfuckingreal! If you know what you were talking about, left inlet remains open and right PAIR remains closed, the hez is still there. But if you swap inlets... BINGO! SOLVED! You are really messing up this tune when you do not follow the flasher's diagnosis.

I even saw it from here was when Grn caught that. So install the PAIR back on, call the flasher and ask which side to shut off the hez side? I would have started with one muffler closed off and reversed the engineering by starting on the other end, but WOT/WATT do I know?

No wonder it runs like shit. I call close off PAIRight side. Try it, see if I'm right, I mean left?

---

"The hose on the LEFT side of bike if you were sitting on it NEEDS to be blocked"
"Once that pair valve line is blocked, what you are feeling should ho away completely! AND performance will improve"

This is exactly what I was told via correspondence...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/12/2015 @ 3:24 PM *

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"The hose on the LEFT side of bike if you were sitting on it NEEDS to be blocked"

Yannhi, I'll put you to sleep with the same old song, but figure 3 to 5 continuous [modding] steps are needed if not recognized you move one design is now a flaw.

Rook is on a learning curve with one bike. You are now in the same curve is to recognize a step. Choose a part, let's ring its little neck and stretch, oh wait, watt are we doing here? So you have to recognize things as you stumble thru them, no pun intended.

Let's talk about the hose. I have mine with a remote shutoff valve. Now I don't have to confuse myself as if it is turned off or on at what rpm/mph/gear/etc. When I do shut it off, my AFR changes, not my processing. Now I think, if I am open loop, my atmo under the seat sensor has no clue if the block off is able or disabled. Therefore, no change with the processing, no change in stumble 4-5-6 is my observation of this hose.

You have to know this bike cold if you want to diagnose. The abstract in the book is so short and sweet, it opens a can of worms read in between the lines. But you have to have this background way before you can line between the reads like reversengineering, oh my gosh, what was just said is abstract flurbee flibeer.

I can't flurbee my flibeer in public, or science kicks in and kicks ass. I am just the messenger of the factory shop manual. There are no hez signals in a spent? That's line reading in between the exhaust to hez. Analogy?

"Once that pair valve line is blocked, what you are feeling should ho away completely! AND performance will improve"

Analogy... Once I pluck a leaf off a pine tree, and the tree don't forget is huge, this will improve the odds you winning the lotto, I pluck one off this abstract, meaning, choose a leaf and now bet on it, she lands there.

This is exactly what I was told via correspondence...

Look, both were having a panic attack and it was any answer that would come up to calm your nerves. And because your instinct was triggered, I can see both sides. Before I got booted off here, that was for your entertainment. I was having fun with C as he was having fun with me, but I more played the flurbee and the silence was flibeer and if you didn't recognize it, spank you for not seeing Ivan, Jeffo, Booko is going to Kicko butt around here and I'm just the paid assassin wearing a pro bono suit.

---

The only time I blocked that airbox hole line was when I was running the Brock's setup...flash and PCV.The flash removes the PCV,and the airbox block.

And this talk here about an 02 sensor installed?Did your bike come with an inline sensor(in the midpipe)?I don't think it did.So WHY install one?The motor's set up to run like a champ.The flash only enhances that performance.Ditch the PCV,you don't need that in there.That's what the flash is for.

Piped and flashed...that's all ya need.

ALL my flashes have worked fine.They were flashed by several different guys here...all ran great.Some weren't quite what I was looking for...but that's okay.They were flashed according to what the tech thought I would like.Sa'll good.They all know what they're doing...no doubt in my mind.

I'm reminded of Vic's bike.Where he spun the tire in first with a loft.What's wrong with that?This was after a flash I think,wasn't it?

My 2012 and 2013 did NOT have an 02 sensor in the midpipe.A bung,welded into the Brock midpipe,yes.Buy factory?No.So where are you guys 'finding' this 02 sensor lead with sensor attached for the midpipe?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/12/2015 @ 8:30 PM *

Hi Grn,

Somehow missed your post above.

No disrespect but I don't think you have been reading carefully enough here.
Unlike the US, European/Australian ZX-14's all come with an inline O2 sensor fitted as standard in the midpipe. I did not add it.
Heck, before the issue I didn't even know my bike had one.
And as opposite to yourself, my bike ran like a champ WITH the O2 sensor installed.
But it conflicted as soon as the flash was added (over riding the flash).
Hence resolving the issue needed far more experienced input than I could provide.
Looking back now its all easy but at the time I had no idea and it took ages to figure out.
You may ask "Well, if you didn't know about the O2 sensor on your own bike, why should the flasher?"
The answer is because I initially asked the flash supplier whether they had flashed any Australian bikes before getting mine done and was told "Yes, with great results".
Therefore the Australian spec'd 14 with the O2 sensor should have been known and catered for.
But it was not.

As can be seen, something does not add up...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/16/2015 @ 7:21 AM *

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"Unlike the US, European/Australian ZX-14's all come with an inline O2 sensor fitted as standard in the midpipe"...aha!You wasskily wabbits over there....

"You may ask "Well, if you didn't know about the O2 sensor on your own bike, why should the flasher?" "...nope,not me.I aint askin nuthin.You've already hurt my feelings....

Don't worry mate.
You'll get one back on me next time.

---

"You may ask "Well, if you didn't know about the O2 sensor on your own bike, why should the flasher?"

Very simple really, the flasher is supposed to be the expert, the knowledgeable one. If he doesn't know it he shouldn't be flsshing ECUs. Just my opinion.

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I agree with Toldeo. Paying to be a guinea pig isn't reasonable, unless that's what was agreed to before money changed hands.

* Last updated by: extrapolator on 10/16/2015 @ 3:25 PM *

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Yannih, did Woolich ever give a comment on this issue?
I Would have thought that there would at least be a "footnote" for the flasher to advise removing O2 sensor at the time of flashing the ecu. The flasher showed me on the screen that you have to choose the ecu number and on the programme it shows Euro spec ecu.

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There shouldn't be any pair valve blocking or whatever with a flash.Not if the guy knows what he's doing.I say this cause I've done and had BOTH.Flash...and PCV.Separately.One uses the airbox/pair block...the other,none.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/19/2015 @ 9:29 AM *