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Thread: Backfire again

Created on: 04/13/13 02:31 PM

Replies: 24

grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

Backfire again
04/13/13 2:31 PM

Well Folks,I suppose Ill go straight to the point, Im back to the old subject of the 3800rpm decel backfire and I know its gone round and round before BUT...
I really would like to try and eradicate this damm anoying noise.
Im currently runing standard gps setup. I like it to work. However I do have a LCD and would use it to show gps.
Runing in N position does not cut fuel , anyone any idea on how much fuel % is used lets say in average useage not cutting fuel.
Say you are travelling along in any gear, you pull the clutch, no pop, must not cut fuel. Does this leave it in the relative gear and just not cut fuel?
Anyone remember which gear has what amount of retardation.......ok 1st lots ....6th none....a bit more detail
Any links would be good.........
thanks
Grin



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/13/13 3:58 PM

I have Tried Everything you will here on the net. Made dozens of decell pop maps. Easy to do when you study factory AFR table readings. The only 100 % cure is the TRE006A. You have my word it is a given. I Have Zero Back Fire. Realy screws up map making and is hard on turbo.


If gear position is a must send your ECU to Don Guhl He removes the fuel cut. Was part of Ivan's input to the prg. Or send to Ivan

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/14/13 2:31 AM

So is yours locked in N ?
...I had a 270ohm resistor in my other bike couldnt remember exact results.......and it was pre turbo anyway.
As I say Ill just stick it into the LCD.



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/14/13 4:13 AM

Anyone remember which gear has what amount of retardation.......ok 1st lots ....6th none....a bit more detail

Timing is controlled by RPM. Gear position controls speed of opening of the throttle plates. Lock in 6th plates open faster. Turbo set up = No plates.

So is yours locked in N ?

Yes, flat bar in my display.

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/14/13 11:26 AM

Yep I guess all the messing around I did I ended up forgeting which way I went.........270ohms resistor and yes no flies of course......Here we go remapping....! I have one somewhere in one of my tool boxes:)

Thanks



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12086

RE: Backfire again
04/14/13 5:26 PM

There are only 2 fuels in nature. Upon Lift:

18 AFR = Stock
16.5 AFR = Home he only needs enough resistance to trigger 'signal out of range' does it defaulinears YOU! Is "OPEN SEASON ON --- Fillin'da Blank!"



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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/14/13 6:13 PM

Maybe open but closed filled in by me ????? No ?

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Hub


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RE: Backfire again
04/16/13 9:00 PM

Romes,

This is concept. This is the nature of the beast. This is where man has to follow that analog split screen. The low-mid|mid-high is the 'method.' The 60mhz. The 60 seconds. The milliseconds broken down from nature is the concept 6 Tea. The crisp analog vs. The smokey method.

The hard setting = Only one in there.
The stock setting = Here is the other one.
The soft setting = The Frequency 'out of range' spits the code.
The hard setting = The Flash spits the 16.5 out and shows no code.
The concept broken down.

Make sense abstract wise?



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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 8:38 AM

Hub OR Romans maybe you guys can help out here or maybe anyone with the right info.
I want to lock the bike in gear temporarily whilst i have the bike on the dyno next week.
Can you tell me which resister and or wires i need to connect to?
R/G and bk but a diagram would do.....also...............
And Ill appologise about returning to the Tre again, oh and ive looked around the search options and all refers to the 6th gear lock

Many thanks



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Hub


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RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 10:42 AM

LG = N locked ~ Makes the flies open quicker.
G/R = 6th locked ~ Sets the timing to advance quicker.
BK/Y = Ground ~ Just explaining watt the 3rd wire does in the loop of the plug.

Theory is: any frequency not sent in within parameters, the sensor's wire is rendered disabled. The ECU brings in the backup system to override the sensor's process or 'input signal out of range' mode is termed 'safe to ride.' The ECU took 'measures to save engine' is more in a 'limp mode.'

I'll step back in time, explain what a HD VOES switch does. The vacuum assist would bring in the analog reading of the VOES. This more or less would have a liner type ignition curve. It would start/idle like the 14 @ 10° BTDC. It would advance to 40° then at full locked advanced @ 55°

When you disabled the vacuum off the VOES switch, the advance went from 10 to 50 degrees, eliminated the linear type 40 degrees you could fall back on, then run up on 55 degrees again. This way, the 6th locker does the same animal. The same nature of the beast. The same principal is my guess to all this?

So yes, this is the same twitch, the same soft vs. hard. It's either or...

Learnedisshithendawnedon me. And I've never been the same.



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Hub


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RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 11:31 AM

I want a "temp switch" for dyno work:

Basic Wire Diagram walks in this simple concept.

1st part ~ I have wire in and wire out = Wires I want to match the factory colors with so down the road I know what wire goes where with both colors matching. Memory does strange things you be forgetting where watt goes where?

2nd part ~ Of the puzzle is the jobber or the on/off switch. I want to make sure I know the switch is off, so nail polish in red says the switch is hot in this position, I place it on the frame, switch, or where the switch will be placed?

3rd part ~ Is the resistor being now the 'input signal' side of the switch. I want to make sure I have the resistor on this side, not headed to ground, meaning, "I am input" I know my 2 different sides is that simple is that 50/50 shot at it, right?

4th part ~ Is how do I not cut a computer wire or any wire on the factory harness? I back-probe with safety wire thru the weather-pac rubber. I solder my wire on the safety wire. I place an ohm meter to the factory prong side of the connector is the one lead off the meter. The other meter probe is to see if my soldered wire has integrity as it is jammed past that rain protected side of the switch.

5th part ~ Is how do I keep the wire from popping out? How do I fix the switch to the bike and can pull it off when done? If they have it over there it is called, 'Amazing Goop' brand glue. This seems to work best for me. It leaves no mark on the paint or wires. It pulls off in one strand if you do it right. You let it setup, that switch will not move. No drilling. No brackets to make. Think about it.



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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 3:39 PM

Memory does strange things you be forgetting where watt goes where?

Sure does , I messed around so much before cant remember where I settled or even got too!
Im with you also on not messing up the factory harness, a few years down the road it ll look like a rats nest or one of those Fiat wiring looms from the factory.....hahaha
Ill do the switch too although I wanted to try having a switch off the flies or the main throttle which basically put it back to the N map on closed throttle, 0% or whereverand soon as you go back on throttle you go back to the gear map you were in therefore keeping gear map and getting rid of 3800
We all know the gear determines resistance which in turn alters ecu voltage.
What I need is R/G to ground resistor value for locking in N.?
Someone must have tried that one?
On mine Im getting 9.08kohm just wondering if theres a prob with it?
The LG is just for the N light to illuminate when grounded and not actively doing anything else?
BK ...gnd ..ok



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Hub


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Posts: 12086

RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 6:37 PM

First off, there is no 0% cut of the fuel. If there was, try pushing the kill switch off as you back off. You'll see in the video that cut is anywhere from 22 to 18 AFR. I believe both the 6 and N will AFR or cut to 16.5 AFR as seen in the video. Watt happens is that I have both N and 6 running together, or 6 alone or N alone.

Toggle wise, you can put the 6 and N on the fly [on/off at will] as you ride meaning. And whatever gear you are in [not hacked] is going to be that sort of map you are talking about. But if you code to an N or a 6, there is no longer a map for said gear. It now runs in some sort of backup where the ignition and fuel maps take over. No longer in analog [many numbers making it smooth], rather using one set parameters over and over for any gear.

This then is that 'twitchy' response of 10 to max advanced degrees. The tune is more aggressive. The response is faster. Even if you go over a bump, your wrist opens the throttle some... Oh yeah, you'll get spooked how much feet you chopped off and now are too close to the car ahead.

That is basically where you are headed. A faster, twitchy response when all is said and done. And if you rather cruise back to smooth = Turn off the toggles.


* Last updated by: Hub on 4/17/2013 @ 6:38 PM *



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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/17/13 7:50 PM

First off, there is no 0% cut of the fuel. If there was, try pushing the kill switch off as you back off. You'll see in the video that cut is anywhere from 22 to 18 AFR. I believe

Hub, I just watched your AFR vid. I'm not sure why your #'s are so diff from mine. I wish you would have shown a Wot to a full decell rpm. I all my home made maps fuel cut is severe from 11,000 down to 6000. Then fuel comes back but still very little till 3800 and then she blows.

Three ways to fix.

1) On your RPM zero column You can Add fuel to keep a 16 to 18 AFR(which will be 100%)

2) Minus All the new fuel the stock ECU has brought back into play before stall.

3) TRE 006A and watch decell #'s come into play where we can fix.

Also my AFR under full throttle was never as rich as yours. I'm lost as to your variables. Teach please. What I'm seeing makes no sense ???? 11s ???? can't B

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/19/13 1:36 PM

Well I finally put in a 9kohm resister to go with the N map.
Afr s seem a bit steadier throughout, already leaned off the wot afr at full boost, now need to refine the rest of the map and what a relief not to have the explosion in the exhaust at 3800rpm.


Romans I have an anoying leaning off on 2 3 and 4% throttle when I am just, as soon as I go to 5% throttle it seems to pick up again, that is to normal AFR of 13.8 ish or so, when it goes lean it goes to about 16afr.
Is this the increments of the powercommander not being able to correct fuel in between the 2 aand 5% point that you can correct......... have you found a fix for it.
Oh also the weather is coming good now and getting into some poroper wot!!!!!! this bloody thing is fast!
Andy



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/19/13 6:28 PM

what a relief not to have the explosion in the exhaust at 3800rpm.

Look back at all the time I spent chasing the fix. I can't even count how many fuel maps and hours I have wasted in search of the holy grail. Grrrrrrrr

I so wish I could play inside stock ECU. No more pigg-E would make for a happy happy man.

Romans I have an anoying leaning off on 2 3 and 4% throttle when I am just, as soon as I go to 5% throttle it seems to pick up again, that is to normal AFR of 13.8 ish or so, when it goes lean it goes to about 16afr.
Is this the increments of the power commander not being able to correct fuel in between the 2 aand 5% point that you can correct......... have you found a fix for it.

You are correct, It's the numbers between the numbers that can not be adjusted that I believe cause our grief.

What works is to play with your fuel pressure. Move away from 42psi and all smooths out. Each time you do a new map is needed. Also, a over oiled filter plays havock with 2% & 5% columns,,,ask me how I found that out lol

Also grin the bottom of the map is where Auto Tune makes a mess due to very rapid on off throttle movements when just going slow. Once that area of the map is made with forward throttle motion, turn the section off in your AFR table,,,, make sense ?

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/20/13 3:05 PM

oh cack. Ill have to postpone dyno until I am happy with fuel pressure and map again, the low % was the only doubtful area I think i had!
I have been able to give it some recently and its been good to watch the AFR BOOST AND FUEL pressure going up in sync
afr is around low 12s on full boost, I wonder if you have an updated one with fuel pressure you have, give me a bit of a start...................thanks
Grin



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/20/13 7:53 PM

its been good to watch the AFR BOOST AND FUEL pressure going up in sync

Grin not sure your set up. How are you seeing ? Any pics ?

My trick has been to watch my fuel pressure, the very moment it begins to rise I start dropping my AFR #'s. This way is more accurate than boost gauge as fuel pressure reg is very sensitive to pressure . 1/4 pound moves fuel psi up

afr is around low 12s on full boost

If your not pulling some timing Get that # down to 11.5 to 11.8

Grin is this my map ? If so add 4s to all boost columns.

I wonder if you have an updated one with fuel pressure you have, give me a bit of a start...................thanks

What is the last one I sent,,,, then I can check.

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/21/13 2:42 AM

Ill post some pics later today, Basically LCD showing boost, AFR TPS, Gear and duty on injectors, and llambda easy to see.
It was indeed a map of yours,
Rick's Turbo IHI VF-34. Auto Tune AFR Table Safe.
Fuel Pressure 42 PSI Sweep to 85
Oct 29/2011 Map Run # 82. Best One Yet. .
But of course I have been refining it to my needs continually since.
I have lowered the fuel onset to max at about 75psi, not 85psi, hence the slightly higher numbers on afr.I felt it was rich enough at that.........? maybe not.....
I am not pulling timming so will correct the Afr accordingly.
(I have a motorsport electronic sensor in the airbox reading to the 5v in the pcv I have calibrated this alongside a mityvac and another guage, it is sensitive and I believe accurate. But I will heed your advice on the fuel pressure guage.

Thanks



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/21/13 8:26 AM

I have lowered the fuel onset to max at about 75psi, not 85psi,

hmmmmm, how did you do this ? Does your FMU have a max setting screw ? Or, is the same as mine and you backed out the onset screw ? If so, you will be in Boost Before fuel Reacts. Lean area in map will be created.

But I will heed your advice on the fuel pressure guage.

Grin, go for a high way ride, look at your fuel pressure and boost gauge. The very second you see 1-lb on boost look at fuel pressure make sure it has moved up prior to boost. If not there will be a hole in your map and injector duty will be high.

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/21/13 9:21 AM

maybe a misuse of words, what I meant to say was the boost control signal was opened to reduce fuel pressure under boost.(just a little)
Just been out for a ride and I have had to now " up" static fuel pressure, up to 62psi to stop the afr diving to 16 when on the 2,3,4% range, are you in this area?
Now rich as hell everywhere as you would expect.
ok now I need to go and be sure I have immediate increase in fuel pressure as soon as boost starts as you suggest.
Thanks



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/21/13 6:18 PM

I wonder if you have an updated one with fuel pressure you have, give me a bit of a
start...................thanks

It was indeed a map of yours,
Rick's Turbo IHI VF-34. Auto Tune AFR Table Safe.
Fuel Pressure 42 PSI Sweep to 85
Oct 29/2011 Map Run # 82. Best One Yet. .
But of course I have been refining it to my needs continually sinc

New Map Sent

Study AFR map. It is of my own design, so Auto Tune will bring you in line. Please keep in mind your 18F/41R gearing will play a role in the bottom end.

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/22/13 12:29 AM

Got it thanks
Will try it tonight,
Thanks again



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5923

RE: Backfire again
04/23/13 7:04 PM

Will try it tonight, Thanks again

Any luck ?

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grin14



Location:

Northamptonshire uk

Joined: 02/27/09

Posts: 252

RE: Backfire again
04/28/13 1:34 PM

Sorry Romans , Ive been in Germany this last weekend at a race meeting at the Nurburgring, dont know if you have heard of it........
I tried the map last week at the 38psi I think it was a map with different trends, certainly runs much richer at the top, to the point its blowing the plugs out/missfiring when on wot.
Had a blast with a zx10r, a lad from work, soon closed him down! with one eye on AFR too!

Bottom end very nearly clears the low end leaning , much better than I have at the moment on the alternate map.
I am inclined to either use your botom end and my top or to maybe continue and lean your top end off.

I dont remember where the injector cycle went up to at this lower pressure, do you?

Ill have to finish the silencer off first. My new one I am making is a carbon Ti straight through with much less back pressure than the very quiet temporary zx12 r pipe I have on at the moment. This in turn will alter the afr a bit as you know.
Grin



07 Turbo 14, Meteor grey, cycle part kit modified,IHI turbo ,bosch pump -6 hoses, RRFPR, woolich, 8psi Boost,Flies out, 17/42, road use only,tail tidy, Braided hoses Stainless bolt kit, odyssey. ZX12r rear wheel. Tail tidy. Akrapovic

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