If the zx14r is crashed and on laying its right side while engine is running 1100rpm, would there possibly be damage? I was hoping someone might have experience or knowledge of the oiling system. And if there could be an issue if it ran on its side for say 5 minutes. Also any advice on how to check if there was damage is appreciated.

I would suspect there was some accelerated wear, maybe not enough to call it damage. 1100 rpm isn't terribly fast. These engines have blown do to lack of lubrication to crankshaft bearings and that was while standing straight up....but usually running at high rpm. Have a look at the oil flow diagram in the service manual. I will guess the oil can't get sucked up into the oil pump if all the oil in the pan has drained to one side (on it's side).

I'm sure someone will know the best way to test for actual damage. I'd guess a compression test.

I wish you luck. I think there's hope. Sorry to hear about the mishap. It happens and it sucks.

5 minutes... literally? Maybe seconds instead that felt like minutes? Was this some wired up tip-over switch so the engine would not shutoff? Takes literally seconds to eat an engine. I would not start it until some sort of inspection, be it minor or major. So if wired up stock and it stopped via the tip-over, then no.

This is FI so if there is fuel being sucked up, then that engine will run on its side all day long, or until it runs out of gas, sans oil lube entering the scenario. So say you had a full tank, gas was at the fuel pickup area to keep it running on its side. That says the engine locked up, because the oil pickup is on the left side and you just pumped in air = for a long 5 minutes before it locked up?

Literally 5 minutes on its left side I would not worry at all... I imagine. But that too could fill up the two cylinder bore areas and lower the level and all that. There are 3 ways to find out. (1)~ Tear the engine down. (2)~ Remove the oil filter and dissect it for heavy metal debris. (3)~ Drop the oil pan and see if the crank throws and big end rods look blue and heated as if a torch burned it into that blue color... being different than the heat treated color almost matching in that same inspection area.

So if the filter is filled with crank insert peel off, the pan is filled with it also, and you can move the big end rod, and if it clicks back and forth, that's called 'rod knock.'

* Last updated by: Hub on 9/16/2021 @ 7:51 AM *

Thanks for the replies. The engine still runs and sounds normal at idle, I'm concerned about longevity of engine having an issue once I start riding again. I crashed and was thrown away from the bike. This was on a back road and I estimated 4-5min before someone came to my aid. No tip-over switch because he shut it off. I want my insurance to total it out but looks like they want to fix it. So once it gets into repair shop I will ask them to drop the pan and check for internal damage.

I'm wanting to get the repair estimate high enough so they total it out. Any suggestions for dealing with insurance company is welcome too. The insurance estimate just from pictures was 5K, and I know they are short at least another 1K because they didn't price the correct exhaust nor the damaged Corbin seat.

Reason I crashed was there was oil dumped in a corner. A bunch of oil. Its a 90 degree corner, no intersection, and 45mph road. Back end of bike slid out and high sided me. So here I sit, broken tibia, wrist, and 2 fingers.

Ouch!

Well, say for argument sake the bike came without a tip-over switch. The crash parts are one thing. Only insure damages and not necessarily the engine, i.e., sealed so oil remains in the engine case. But say the engine's crank end was bent due to that crash damaged, then yes, it's covered under the crash loop.

However, this brings up a get out of jail clause, being you might have to bring in the manufacturer no adding this to a fuel injected engine. Or if you tampered with the switch and you make a claim for engine damage... see where we're going if we bring this in?

Sounds like that oiled corner was more a deliberate act if say that 90° turn is for the sporty types on said sporty road, on said most sporty day? Or a recent accident? I'd date that corner on the alleged crash that day, or day before is some tow truck log or a police accident report?

So I think the engine is out of your wallet, because it's no biggie to me what bike we are talking about. No 14 is going to run for 5 minutes with the tip-over switch in place. So yes, best thing to do is drop the pan to make sure.

Was this some wired up tip-over switch so the engine would not shutoff?

That says the engine locked up, because the oil pickup is on the left side and you just pumped in air = for a long 5 minutes before it locked up?
Literally 5 minutes on its left side I would not worry at all... I imagine. But that too could fill up the two cylinder bore areas and lower the level and all that.

It's questionable if it would pump oil laying on either side. The RH side, I know for a fact there is space for the oil to run up to the front of the motor. It's not a very big space but if you put your hand into the small chamber where the timing rotor is, you will feel a hole going right back to the oil pan. That's in addition to all the empty space in the clutch cover that will definitely admit oil from the oil pan with the bike laying on its RH side. LH side, I never had a look at the inside of the generator chamber but if there's a hole from the oil pan like there is on the RH side, that is a pretty big chamber to fill. A lot of oil could run from the pan to the generator if there's an opening between the two.

Reason I crashed was there was oil dumped in a corner. A bunch of oil. Its a 90 degree corner, no intersection, and 45mph road. Back end of bike slid out and high sided me. So here I sit, broken tibia, wrist, and 2 fingers.

Sucks! It hurts to read that. I recently wrecked my 14 when I hit a deer. So far, looks like the engine shut down but I don't know because I was out like a light.

Where is this tip over switch? how can it be deactivated? Just unplug it?

Halfway down this page, Top Fairing Removal, step 3. This is Gen1 but it must be located in the same place on the Gen2.

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=0083B460-D56B-84E2-1A6649F299C86EE7

I'm pretty sure my bike ran with the TOS wire connector removed. A code flashed on the screen shortly after syarting the engine but it ran. There is probably a way to fool the ECU into thinking the TOS is connected when it isn't like jumping the terminals in the plug or something.

If your top fairing was badly damaged in the crash, it's possible the TOS was ripped out before it shut the motor down but that seems doubtful. I'd expect that more with a front end impact. There has been concern the switch might stick too. That is why there is a simple test for it. Remove the TOS start the bike and then tilt the TOS. If the bike doesn't shut iff the TOS is faulty. I haven't heard of anyone ever having a defective TOS. Some people disabled them because they were afraid the TOS might shut the motor down if they leaned far enough in a corner.

Hmm...with that much oil on the road I'm wondering why you didn't immediately lose the front first ?

Mad

The engine still runs and sounds normal at idle...

Because the bike is still an air cooled bike, you can only let it idle for so long. So you would let it idle for say 5-7 minutes minimum, sip a suds and sit next to the bike and wait for some sound; whereas you can kill it quick. Say no noise at the timed mark. Let it cool down overnight and light it off in the morning. No noise on startup, I doubt you hurt the engine.

I question my source, but the story goes, yoshi was at Daytona and their bike ran low or hand no oil left in the crankcase and still came in to podium? The pint is, I have no clue how much they measured on the drain, but at that rpm and who knows how many laps left, take it for what it's worth.

I estimated 4-5min before someone came to my aid. No tip-over switch because he shut it off.

So you'd have to test it with a back-probe of say 3 sewing pins. Stab under the weatherpac so you hit the connectors. Say 4-5v is the horizontal number of the sensor. Then you tilt to watch it drop to a 1 volt or under. Tilt the sensor the other and swap to the other wire, go way past 60° or more, and the other side should also read a volt or under. Say it's stuck at 4v. Then it will never shut off no matter the angle.

But here's the catch22. Analog swings between the 4 to 5v is when the bike is upright with the sensor... for argument sake. Digital would cause the [pick a volt] 4.so and so volts to code, as it remains stuck at 4.?? volts. But we have yet to hit the catch22 yet. Look at how the code reads:
1. Stuck at say 4.88v and it is within the 5v spec swing of it being upright or horizontally placed. Because this is a rheostat kind of electrical reading. That ball keeps rolling and the more input, the more analog of the ball's swing over those measured coiled windings. That says no code if it can go up and down in volts = Analog ~ No code.

2. As far as the ball being stuck at 4.88v, it's like saying a sustained ride on a straight road and a steady speed, sure it's really not stuck, but still can move and we are talking 4.8880000011v and oops, went to move for that debris in the road and it went 4.880002222v is still analog and not stuck at 4.88v in so many words.

3. Now we are here at the catch. When you catch this, you'll go, oh shit, you're right... it does make sense. So same road, same upright, same debris... we are at 4.88v, but now the read is locked at 4.88v at the upright steady as she goes; reads 4.88000000v, and then you move for the debris and it remains 4.88000000v = Checkmate is the same Digit over and over ~ Codes.

Get it? Analog means many and digit-al means one. It had to of had to lock frozen to code. But what about that little window of movement so as not to code, right? Sensor's ball is stuck on either side but can roll ever so little and a little is a lot in voltageville. Enough not to code. Shit, maybe you have a fluke sensor?
______________________________________________________________________________
Here at loophole shop works, we'd remove one bolt off the sensor, start the bike, let it idle for that 5 minute round as you kill two birds and screw the sewing needle back-probing. You'll just be in real time as you tilt the one side ever so slowly or the quick 70° swing and start counting.

Catch22 me if it still runs with no code and has to have that ball stuck, but it's not as stuck in a little 4.??v of a back and forth window so as not to be stuck solid and throw the single digit lit code?

Only the tilt knows for sure.

thanks everyone for details about this switch. not sure why it didn't work as no one has been in that section of the fairing. will definitely have repair shop check that out along with other suggestions. there wasn't any damage to the front fairing.

i do have dash cam footage. i installed front and rear dash cam on the bike. i'm looking forward to see the video.

i installed front and rear dash cam on the bike.

Rook, I thought up this piece [with you in mind] to see if you could understand it. Figured if you got the concept I/you can take it on the road sort of speak. You've got the book, the abstract to the code, but it's not telling you the analog and digital difference the abstract is saying. In other words, you need to know this going in before you open the book... in so many words.

That's why the abstract is so short and to the point and makes no mention of it. They use the DFI and the word Digital is more or less, they know what it means, I know what it means, and I'm just thinking if you can grasp it too; as to what I'm saying in that post above? It is how to recognize why a code spits the light on fandango.

So the question is, did it make sense diagnosing the tip over switch and why it didn't stop the engine, why no code set? Once school is out, summer riding hits, the shop is backed up, you are looking for a seasonal part time job with the down time at school; where a dealer/independent can use more help. Can you see me matching the book and add some off the wall theory... is to work the concept of analog v. digital?

When that CEL or check engine light icon in the car comes on, it is saying the same thing to those sensors. Figure this out, you have both car and bikes cornered. Remember, you work wheel to wheel on a bike. Cars, they more or less have specialists for 'heavy line' like transmissions/engines, or 'driveability' techs for tuneups, and others jumping in the interior and those techs are called '15A,' working the electrical end.

But if a bike comes on the rack with a code, in need of a tune, pops out of gear... it's all on you. So how clear or confused does it sound if the service manager asks you the basics of a code?

Good luck answering. Remember, it's not the student, it's the teacher inept at teaching.

hell,if I suspected a tipover switch,I'd remove the windscreen and unbolt that unit.Start bike,and turn the tipover unit.JUST to rule that in or out.Easy check.They can go bad.

For whatever it's worth,none of my bikes have ever really started on the first cranking after changing oils.If the pickup wasn't getting anything,I think maybe the pressure sensor would activate and the motor would shut down(if it's designed to do that from Mama Kaw).Mine never start until the oil pressure's reading.I have no idea how the sensor works in the oil situation.If there was no oil in there say.Would it start?IDK.I don't think so.

It seemed to me that the curcuit was designed to not allow running without oil pressure.Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't fire...then I noticed the oil lamp,which quickly went out and the engine started.
I did in fact one time after draining the oil I cranked it thinking some more would pump out the drain plug.The engine would not start and the lamp was on.
Now when I change oils,I hit the starter just to turn it over once or twice.Then I go on full button push/hold.The lamp goes away,the motor starts.Probably overkill I know.And useless?

5 minutes on it's side?Not sure the motor would keep running without steady oil pressure.Mine didn't.

And no.I'm not gonna lay her on her side after removing and holding the tipover switch upright and try to start it.

I can't really imagine the switch sticking on a hard landing and hitting the ground considering how it's designed.Maybe simply co-incidence?Bikes have those all the time.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/18/2021 @ 2:51 PM *

I have to ask then.How did it run for 5 minutes after it dropped?That's a long time without anyone getting to it.Just curious,that's all.Seems the pickup tube and such would be pulling air in there.Don't see how it would keep running.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/18/2021 @ 2:56 PM *

So the question is, did it make sense diagnosing the tip over switch and why it didn't stop the engine, why no code set?

What I'm getting from your previous reply is that the TOS is an analog sensor and you can test it's voltage which varies according to how far the bike leans. The analog sensor triggers a digital response when the voltage changes enough because the bike leaned far enough (tipped over).

I would think the TOS is a simple ON/OFF switch. I see no reason for variable voltage, the switch is open or it's closed. There is no need for the ECU to tell the motor it's close to tipping over or it's far from tipping over, all the ECU cares about is if the bike actually tips over. The switch is open or it's closed, the engine runs or it shuts down. No in between, no need for variable voltage like a throttle sensor must have.

As far as the code on the meter unit, yeah that's digital. but again, the TOS is either open or closed and the digital end reacts accordingly. The ECU doesn't care what the voltage is as long as there is enough to power flowing to make the trip down the wire to the ECU to tell it the sensor switch is either open or closed. IN between the ECU couldn't care less.

In my view, this ON/OFF voltage or variable voltage is what distinguishes a "switch" from a "sensor." A switch is All voltage/no voltage like the oil pressure switch, the brake light switch and the side stand switch. The technical name for these if you look up parts or check the SM is "switch", not "sensor." A sensor reacts to different input by outputting variable voltage. The water temp sensor, throttle temp sensor, air temp sensor are all examples. They need to output a range of signals to tell the ECU it needs to make different accommodations across that range. We often refer to the TOS as the tip over sensor or vehicle down sensor. Maybe even the SM refers to it as a sensor. It's a switch. ON/OFF. Run/stop. Enable/disable. Same as the kill switch. The TOS is the kill switch for when your bike falls over because you often can't do it immediately after you crashed.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/18/2021 @ 7:15 PM *

It seemed to me that the curcuit was designed to not allow running without oil pressure.

The only oil pressure sensor (actually a switch, see above post) I'm aware of is the one that triggers the oil pressure warning light. I've never tested it but I have been told those lights are next to useless if you are riding the bike. The light won't come on until the pressure goes to about 8 psi. The light is for starting the bike only to tell you to shut it down if the light doesn't go out. If you want a useful warning light, you need an aftermarket oil pressure SENSOR and gauge with warning light.

I have seen plenty of videos where a bike ran after it went down, falling on left side or right. I see the guy go over and switch the key off or the kill switch. Obviously, no TOS on those bikes (often bikes used for stunting) but I'd have to think they have an oil pressure switch because there's no reason to remove that and if you did, you'd need to plug the hole.

Shit, my fault, Rook. It's just that time goes so fast, this study was more like years of bits of puzzle pieces showing up, and I'm trying to layout the rules so there is no long, dragged out theory. I'll rack my brains and take you down with me, but this is the last of it, because I can bore you to death about FI.

You've got some of it, but let's just say you are not there yet to apply for a part time job at Codes Are Us. I'm trying to bounce this off you, because you can pick things up on the bike and this is more in the diagnosing end of the bike and its basic theory. See if this makes sense...

As far as the code on the meter unit, yeah that's digital.

... but again, the TOS is either open or closed and the digital end reacts accordingly.

Puzzle one that is not in the book. The ECU is nothing more than a switch like you said. It is either on or off. So if you look at a tic-tac-toe board, you can run how many gates horizontally, vertically, and the 3rd move diagonally? Get the on/off gates to show that path, sure. So book does not say the black box is a switching gate, no. It's part of the next piece of the theory.

Now we have to think about the book not discussing how the processor works. So there is no mention of machine speak as of how the sensor communicates to the ECU with its binary processing of 1's and 0's. So when you say the TOS acts as an on off switch, technically yes; in theory, no. Here is where you have to split the analog from the digital. Easy to explain the difference is that a brake/kick stand/clutch switch do work as on and off.

However, a sensor is made up of analog or many different 1's and 0 signals to be sent up to the ECU. Let's use for example your switch move:
On, the digital number the ECU reads is going to be 1111, for argument sake. The math is simple once memorized, but say this is [actually] a number in binary speak. And let's use 0000 for off... in binary speak.

Book TOS Spec:
3.55v ~ 4.45v = Upright.
0.65v ~ 1.35v = Past 60-70° or fell over.

ECU is reading dead nuts straight up 4.00v in analog. Add both up and divide by 2. For argument sake the sensor can go weak and drop to 3.55v and still be within spec. Say a good battery spikes the test up to 4.45v and that too is within range. On the full tilt, analog is going to magnetically send 3.99-3.98-3.97-3.96----1.000001v = Analog [many] values sent ~ No code if it can read all those zeros [you don't see in the book] heading up/down to the next volt.

Your switch example is going to be either/or in the digital sense of the code theory. So we take your on/off switch, apply that as a sensor. (?)-notice how we can play with the basic theory you used. Analog wise, we can see how the bike is tipping over as the degrees represent voltage drop and is counting off a 'different number' each incremental second is that processor counting off thousands of those voltages in the binary counts of 1's and 0's.

Code setting wise, we apply the on/off in binary speak, then it reads as:

ON = 11111111111111111 = Digital
OFF = 0000000000000000 = Digit means; one single input sets the code.

Get it? It can't be an on/off switch. The abstract says two magnets inside. And that says analog [many] inputs.
Right? The wall switch, the kicker, the clutch, brake switches are your on/offs. No magnetism in this type sensor, then it is one [digit] over and over is a code triggered at the dash.
_________________________________________________________

there wasn't any damage to the front fairing.

I wish. For some models Honda uses a low oil light to come on, plus the pressure switch. It's just coincidence, Grn. It's one wire up to the dash for the light, and the pressure switch is the ground. Ah, here is an on/off switch we add to the list. It has no safety switching for low/no oil. So you can either rekey it back on and it might fire right off, or a little more cranking. But there is nothing on the parts pages for a sensor to detect oil low or no oil, be it the 14 or H2.

Well I'm curious then why it will fire first button push when oil is correct,and not fire with push or hold when oil lamp is lit.Once lamp goes out,it fires up each time with one push(even though the oil lamp is momentarily lit for at least one complete engine cycle.I mean ever since I did that 'drained oil start' attempt(would have immediately stopped if it had fired),I've always thought maybe it was a built in safety deal.Will these Kawasakis start and run with no oil in em?(virtually zero oil pressure).(same as laying on it's side and being oil starved in the motor).
With a bike dropping over,there's bound to be points where the oil flow is interrupted with air.I would think anyway.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/19/2021 @ 12:06 AM *

Well I'm curious then why it will fire first button push when oil is correct, and not fire with push or hold when oil lamp is lit

Cold? Let's throw some variables at it and then you tell me. Yeah, I can imagine you could hook up a file to say; if light stays on for so and so seconds, do not start the bike. That's how we are thinking about the... IF.

Okay, now we look at the on/off switch as IF it now failed. We are hauling ass around a corner, oh shit, the switch had to fail and the light goes on, engine shuts off... in a turn? NFW!

Kind of make sense you can't use that scenario in two IF/OR's. Back to cold/coincidence. However, I'm coming up on an oil change and I'll hit the start button with no oil in it and see if it starts right up... still warm on the drain. Right?... If it works hot or cold, light has to work with temp sensors sending in a cold engine or a hot engine.

Green, the oil pressure warning light on mine came on every time I turn the the key on. It stayed on and it flashed while I was on the starter button. It went out when the motor fired off on it's own. After an oil change, it might take almost two seconds before the light went out. So there it was, starting and running without oil pressure. If there is oil pressure caused by the starter motor cranking, it would have to be pretty low.

Hub, are we sure the TOS is a magnet or is it just a teeter totter? Either way, it's on or off. It makes contact or it doesn't. Sure the on or off has to be converted to some digital form to communicate with the ECU. I see no reason the TOS would benefit from having variable voltage and if it did, the ECU would interpret that into a digital signal too.

Yes Rook...you're right about the couple seconds being lit.When I did that no oil cranking thing,I didn't continue to hold the button.Only for a few seconds.Normally my 14 would fire up at least within that time.I always kept(keep)my bikes on a charger,so it wasn't that.
Just seemed strangely okay that mine wasn't starting when empty.Put oil in,fired right up.So IDK.

And for stalling in a corner from no oil,that I can't say about.I guess the only real way to check things or not is to leave oil out,then try and start the bike.More than I did.I'm tempted to try it...but I probably won't.

On a side note...

Could it be?Behold your zx15!