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Thread: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over

Created on: 09/15/21 10:17 PM

Replies: 38

Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 20098

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 2:00 PM

Normally my 14 would fire up at least within that time.I always kept(keep)my bikes on a charger,so it wasn't that.
Just seemed strangely okay that mine wasn't starting when empty.Put oil in,fired right up.So IDK.
And for stalling in a corner from no oil,that I can't say about.I guess the only real way to check things or not is to leave oil out,then try and start the bike.More than I did.I'm tempted to try it...but I probably won't.

No. I wouldn't try it. Maybe there is some kind of sensor that detects extremely low oil and prevents ignition but if not, why risk it?

On a side note...
Could it be?Behold your zx15!

I hope! Looks like an H2/ZX-14 hybrid. It would sure be good timing for me. I'd buy one. I might wait a year or two for bugs to be worked out....maybe. This is the first I've heard about it. I'd love to see it but really, I believe the current H2 and ZX-14R are dominating the Gen3 Hayabusa in performance. Still no word about the Gen3 busa making a whole lot more power than it does stock.

Man that would be insult to injury, the new busa can't edge out the old 14R and then Kaw jumps ahead even more with a supercharged ZX-15. I hope so. I guess we'll see this winter.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15202

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 7:48 PM

Course this guy is a concept person.So this is probably not in the works for Kawasaki,though they could do if they wanted.I would streamline the rear a bit with a sharper flowing cowl,and perhaps redesign that front area a bit for a smoother less pointy look with the spoilers on there.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

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RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 8:28 PM

Hub, are we sure the TOS is a magnet or is it just a teeter totter?

On code chapter, page TOS, read the limited abstract described. In a way, yes. By accident, had the ohm meter hooked up to two stator wires on a Harley. Hardly moved the rotor and man, I moved it about half a hair's width and it spiked the meter.

When you read the hi/lo numbers, ideal spec is to find the middle. From a TOS to a valve lash it's using the hi/lo number, where the middle of those two numbers is more like saying the blueprint number. Had a neighbor work in the space industry. He'd talk about millionths of inches. And when he said 'breakout' on a millionth of an inch, we are talking about a trashed part thrown in the dumpster.

So layer after layer of shaving off millions of inches, it sure sounds like a linear kind of depletion of millions of numbers heading from 4 to 1 volt. So when I banged out those zeros from 4v to 1v, the analog is the filler or each layer of say 3.99v down to 3.89900v and still counting down each zero from 9 down to 0 on each number next to itself, we are layering off each millionth of a volt way before we get to 1.000000v. That's what a senor is. It's an incremental move in the linear from 4 down to 1v on the swinging of the teeter. Now that's processing.

An EE has to correct me here, but formula wise, the spike of a wall switch, or the electrical arc meaning, is when it spikes [to] ground, that arc is a measured .7v. So in the math of the EE, that number is a given in the formula. And when you turn the light off, that spark or arc [from] ground is equally .7v. When you can play with the theory of your on/off switch, it is a constant single digit of .7v = On, and off is .7v = the Digit sets the code.

Said another way:
1v-2v-3v-4v = Analog ~ Sensor
.7v-.7v = Digital ~ Switch

The question to you is, can you recognize a sensor from a switch?
Sensor - 3 wires
Switch - 2 wires

So when you walk up to the generic computer bike and find a jobber with 3 or 2 wires, and those jobbers are hanging off the throttle shaft and subshaft, who is the switch and who is the sensor? This question is open book.

Either way, it's on or off.

Technically, yes, but you're cheating. You are not going to get away saying switch when the book says otherwise.

It makes contact or it doesn't.

Technically incorrect. You are fixated on the on/off. It is in constant contact in the analog stage. There is no shutting off. Let me take that back. Kill is off, but power still on. That's an on/off. So dead is the jobber/coils.

But with this sensor, power stays on to shut off the list stated in the abstract. So running is 4v, and dead engine is 1v recognized by the ECM to shut off said list being, f-pump/spark/injector, plus the CEL icon lights. Power stays on don't forget. So power has to be on so the ECM knows when to shut it off. Did you catch that on being on for the signal? I'm dissecting your on/off in its practice v. ECM's kind of off is still on... LOL

Sure the on or off has to be converted to some digital form to communicate with the ECU.

I know you've go some of the puzzle pieces and you are correct with this. The magnetic or electrical pulse from that ever so moved rotor is as if looking at the increments of 4.0000000v about to go linear on the down voltage numbers.

It has to show all those analog signals being different than a constant .7v you think it's stuck at? When the wheel is up in the air, it's going to slow down and not remain in the constant with the back wheel. So that first drop in voltage up the wire, and I mean it's that zero way down the other end about to change in that instant incremental change, you can't blink fast enough before that calc drops the wheel back down.

I see no reason the TOS would benefit from having variable voltage and if it did, the ECU would interpret that into a digital signal too.

Correct again. The calc is so fast, it's watching each 0 way on the other end move from that number and go up or down in voltage direction. The processor is that fast, so of course it takes in one digital change to the next. Get it? One different digit from the other is the analog input signal. This too is not in the shop manual, but they expect you to be knowledgeable about basic electricity. And when I say this quote, this is the king of who/how/what/and WATThell it's all about. "Magnetism ~ You cannot separate heat from the chemical reaction." Burn that in the mental [chemically cranial] toolbox.

Some sensors have some sort of magnet in place. Crank/Cam/Speed/Wheel sensors; have those magnetic cores to make AC voltage head up the wire. 1mph is one input and as the speed rises in a linear fashion, so goes the wave length to convert that number and it gets complex after that. But the point is to tell why the jobber can diagnose itself when the code is set.
____________________________________________
Grn, I came back from a ride, dumped the oil/filter. Took two short startups. Key on, fan on, hit start and a nice gush came out as it lit off. Grabbed a cardboard piece and braced it against the back of the front wheel, key on, it lit right off again, and not so much oil the second time when I let it run for an instant, then I shut it back down.

No oil sensor in the parts pages, nor shop, nor owner's manual make mention of any safety design built in. Plus, the NFW just proved it to myself/you. I shot both starts with the cell. I'll shoot it cold when the oil goes back in. Of course the bike will be cold. Then we'll see how long it takes to light off. Trip A showed 3,144 on the oil change. Trip B showed 538 on the chain lube. I'm usually at 300mi. 15K on the speedo and it's time for a valve check.


* Last updated by: Hub on 9/19/2021 @ 8:33 PM *



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Grn14


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Location: Montana

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RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 10:05 PM

Okay Hub.Good enough for me..thanks.
I think 5 minutes on it's side is a not good scenario.Do you think it was still pumping oil in there?


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/19/2021 @ 11:04 PM *

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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 20098

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 10:09 PM

OK, I just looked the TOS up in my SM and indeed it is called a Vehicle Down Sensor and indeed it does have variable voltage.

What the hell good is it to sense something if the ECU doesn't react to it anyway? The ECU does nothing until the bike tips over. I can see how the Gen2 might benefit from lean angle output from the VDS to inform Traction Control. My Gen1 has no TC so what would it need a sensor for when a plain old teeter totter switch would work just fine to shut the bike off if it tips over?



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Rook


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RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/19/21 10:13 PM

I think 5 minutes on it's side is a not good scenario.Do you think it was still pumping oil in there?

Variable voltage sensors do have a specced voltage range and they do wear out and need replacing when they get out of spec. I have a hard time believing a TOS could be so out of spec that it wouldn't know when the bike was laying on its side.



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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13047

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/20/21 9:15 AM

I'm sure the bike was not that leaned over to the point of cutoff, nor induce engine damage. OP mentions both running afterwards for a noise test, and also not too much damage to a fairing? Being that the nose was not damaged is a front fairing, or 'front side' fairing was not damaged, then I could see it's not that leaned over to cut the engine off.

I can easily see this VDS also acts as an axis signal, right? Yammie with the R1M and all those axis inputs to calc out. And you'd think the factory R&D engineers would be working a tile table, or a running stand, tilt the engine till oil intake is lost and now write the file to kill the engine at this angle, i.e., or its, cough, volt value at set degreed angle of the magnetic totter.
_______________

Grn, glad you're not about to experiment. It's like cooking. Too much heat and the taste goes burnt. Overnight wise, oil has dripped out of the crankshaft inserts. Say that's a normally dripped dried crank. Car/bike starts up in that life span of cold starts and you do not see engines starve for oil, still having some oil on the inserts. So as fast as that oil belched out within the starting rpm; before the engine started, that's some fast moving oil so as not to daily damage in startup mode.

Hot start is the pump purge, I have so much oil on shutoff, plus a hot flowing drain, we are empty before I glove up to spin the filter off. That short a start, that much oil still on the inserts, we are talking zip damage. But to Daytonaize/dirt test the engine for a few minutes, good luck on that.

Funny story or you had to be there. Mech in the shop just put together a big bore 350? 4-storke single Honda dirt bike. He's doing laps at the back of the shop on a little dirt test track. All of a sudden he stops. Forgot to put oil in the rebuild. So we are talking just a few minutes without oil and it's burnt to a crisp inside.



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busabim


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Joined: 01/13/15

Posts: 45

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/22/21 5:47 PM

If they build anything like a 1200 or up supercharged bike, it will be the only thing to get me to jump ship from my currently highly modded 14.

The lack of bottom end on the H2 Sx Se was seriously disappointing. At 7500 we are at peak, the 1000 needed a lot more RPM and still has less torque. It felt like a supercharged 1000, lol.

If they make a 1500 h2, im in 100%. But it aint happening.

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Grn14


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/22/21 9:04 PM

"The lack of bottom end on the H2 Sx Se was seriously disappointing."

You rode this bike in Full Power mode,Ktrc off?Went into 1st and punched it wide open?And held it there to redline?(if it's stock it'll fall off at 13 something rpms).Factory ECU?Factory exhaust?
All I can say is my particular H2SXSE+ flashed and piped and tuned WILL make ya hang on big time IF ya stay in it.And she will loft for sure.If you rode a stock one,it will feel restricted,cause it is.
If I add throttle in N and let er fly,oh yeah,she'll lift alright.If I feather the clutch in 1st with some rpms in there already,then pop the clutch,she'll lift bigly.

When I first rode one back when they first came out(early 2018),the dealer had it in medium mode.I didn't know that.My impressions were...no thanks.When I got my 2020 and set it up how I wanted it,everything changed with my opinion,happily.It's a dangerously quick and decieving engine.I can't really ride it full out.Close,but not quite yet.My H2 was the same,though a bit more radical.

"At 7500 we are at peak"...don't know where ya got that figure from.That's not correct at all.This bike continues to build power and torque all the way to 14,500 flashed redline.The throttlebodies don't close at all like the stock one does.
You don't have to believe me.Brock's has a complete video on the H2SXSE,with dyno pulls and values.He's the one that flashed and tuned my bike.Stage 1.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/22/2021 @ 9:13 PM *

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busabim


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RE&amp&#x3b;&#x23&#x3b;x3a&#x3b&#x3b; Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/23/21 7:48 AM

GRN14

I have a custom flash and i am acutely aware of the improvements it makes for the responsiveness to the bike. I am very familiar with the Brocks flash for the sx as well.

I have more way torque at 7500 than your 1000 flashed. Your peak torque is at 10, 500 on Brocks dyno chart. If i wanted to rev the bike out like that again, I would buy a 1000RR

Just checked, I have about 20 more foot pounds at my peak torque than the top H2 Sx se flash and that is the point.

Not dissing your bike, it is way newer technology, better chassis and more newer electronics as it should be from a new generation bike. More top end with a good flash as well, that is why I sold my 1000R as i hated revving it to get it to deliver and went back to a big inline 4.


BB


* Last updated by: busabim on 9/23/2021 @ 7:55 AM *

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15202

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/23/21 8:14 AM

Sa'll good.Not dissing the 14r either.I had 3 of em.
Your bike looks great!Good job on her.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/23/2021 @ 8:16 AM *

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13047

RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/23/21 8:53 AM

I have about 20 more foot pounds at my peak torque than the top H2 Sx se flash and that is the point.

Everyone is fixated on the HP numbers. But it's torque that pulls the stump, not half the roots still stuck in the ground.

Pipe/flash/weight/cams/porting... ain't gonna help that little shitter. The wolf pack gapper ass spoken.

Never seen a cleaner oil pleat than the oil change I just made... same 2qt mix of decades old 50w and top it off with 10-40. The oil thread killer ass spoken.

Signed,
The Ass Wipes [the torque off the 100% cotton briefs]



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busabim


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Joined: 01/13/15

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RE: Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/23/21 4:43 PM

Aye there's the rub HUB, if they ever get electric sorted torque on demand to the moon.

Even though Zero lists peak torque at being from 5,000 rpm, Cycle World's test showed it coming on at full torque of 132 lb-ft at just 1,350. This is lower than any other motorcycle produces full torque.

BB


* Last updated by: busabim on 9/23/2021 @ 4:45 PM *

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Greentween



Joined: 07/13/20

Posts: 14

RE&#x3a&#x3b; Opinion wanted, engine running while tipped over
09/25/21 10:03 PM

I finally got the dashcam chip from the bike. It was running while the bike was on its side about 5min total. Apparently the tip-over switch failed in my case.

YouTube link..

https://youtu.be/BEHGslBW9v0

Need to have your volume up high to here the engine idling from this front camera. There is an odd thumping at beginning but maybe that's one of the tires spinning.


* Last updated by: Greentween on 9/25/2021 @ 10:05 PM *

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