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Thread: Subthrottle Mods

Created on: 02/06/09 08:22 AM

Replies: 9

Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

Subthrottle Mods
02/06/09 8:22 AM

Look at the subthrottle as a light switch. More like a rheostat room light switch. You have the main throttle at the cable being a normal on/off light switch. No matter how fast you flip the on/off switch, the rheostat [subthrottle] will rise as in a smooth linear feel, like the room goes from dim to bright with a twist of the rheostat switch.
All that sub is doing is slowing down the air going in. If you remove the flies, you increase the speed is all that occurred. You changed nothing to the fuel trim being the crank and your throttle pulse at the vacuum suck off a sensor is one feed to the fuel trim. That cable yank just told the ECU the throttle moved. Then there is the throttle sensor that moved too is keyed to the main throttle cable. So, you have all this input and that throttle apply you make is to cause/effect a smooth transition of air speed to slow down, give the bike a more linear glide rather than all this abrupt torque that now takes off at a much quicker speed... Being you just caused the air to move without a restriction in the way.

What happens when the subs are removed and the air is sent in quicker? Right off, someone thinks, "Lean?" In the factory service manual, someone just disputed a lean condition as in: "The bike is designed to work if the sub system fails.' 'We open the subs and now where is the lean if we open the subs in the practical move?" Basically, that is what the book states and then asks the question when someone shouts, "LEAN."

If the subthrottle is tied into the gear position sensor, the wire nicks to ground or is unplugged, the ECU simply sets the subs open. This is a pre-designed backup to fuel injection. If those subs ever fail and close like your main plate is now; how will you pull air in with that sub closing the door on the air? YOu would stall if that sub did not open> The more you try to suck more air is more cable pulling about to kill the engine. So, the design is for the subthrottles to ratchet open rather than close on a backup or sensor failure.

So now you have to ask yourself it the design codes to open the flies, the book states it is safe to ride.... Where in the book did it say it was dangerous to ride it? The factory knows it is not going to lean is burn down a piston? Safe to ride means WOT the throttle does it not? If that fail-safe/backup was not safe like redundant, where does the lean come in if Kawi [and add the rest of the fail-safe bikes which also] have the same theory covered is think about air speed and what do you need to be in a dangerous lean?

Did I not have the same redundant gas mileage hacked or stock? Yes, I do have the same mileage either stock or in, redundancy. No, there is no lean the bike cannot handle. I am open sub without piggy. I am 4-in-1 is open pipe is without piggy. Air cleaners with or without is a slight bog but now how can NASCAR toss in a restrictor plate and does the engine lean out or does the same engine run out of air at higher rpm is no lean, just a door restricting the same air as the subthrottle. Only the sub moves if you catch how many steps keep falling back to air speed and a restrictor plate.


There are few ways to remove the subthrottle plate or the complete sub system itself. If we are on a scale from 1 to 5, five being the most difficult, here are a few ways to achieve faster air speed and how easy or difficult the job can be:

1. Screw Removal. This is the most common way to keep the bike from coding and losing your display on the dash. Difficulty in execution is a, "2" category. The sub-shaft can move and cause the screwdriver tip to climb out and strip the head. You must have mechanical skills for this, plus a good selection of tools to begin with. If you do not feel confident with the mod, there are a few ways that will work just as well without an array of tools.

2. GPS Code Triggering. There are plug-in devices out in the aftermarket, or you can set the code by using a resistor. The resistor is used so as not to short to ground and blow a fuse, nor is this to set the other code being the GPS is tied into a few other sensors as a group to cause/effect a code to safely backup itself. Difficulty to set the subs to open is category "1" in execution. This will cause your gear select window to show a number (6) in the window. If there is a swap in wires to trigger, then the next code will set in the dash, showing you there is a problem with said sensor. This is normal and what you did was code to the redundancy. No harm, no foul you might say.

3. Remove Subthrottes/shaft/hanging hardware. This is probably the most difficult to disassemble and reassemble, so lets call this a "4" as in difficulty to execute. This sub-gutting is more extreme and will flow the best. There are less parts in the way to restrict the air from flowing. The shaft is one more part in the way of filling the cylinder as soon as possible. Notice that air fills that shaft space. That is that much faster that space the shaft took up is that much faster the air is without the shaft in the way.

4. Subthrottle Shaft Locking. Difficulty to execute is rated a "1." This is the least intrusive of all the sub plays you can make. This is where you remove the choke system that the subthrottle uses for it's cold choking. This opens the main throttle a little so there is a rich fuel set to start on cold engines. By removing the tiny 'E-clip," you can pull the choke assembly off, then ratchet the subshaft open. You will have to remove the subshaft's actuator or else when you turn the key on, the gears inside will strip being the shaft cannot set itself open for choke or running function. You do not want that; being you would have to buy the whole throttle body unit. The actuator is not rebuild-able. You would now have to make the shaft stay open somehow.
This is the least difficult and the quickest way to return back to stock. Yes, you will lose your dash display.*

Note: When setting any other sub mod than removing the screws from the flies, there is no code set on the dash, nor do you need to increase the fuel as in installing a PC to re-trim for a lean condition. The factory has you covered either way. You have to understand air speed and what you just did so you understand you changed the air going in. The telemetry knows where/how to trim the fuel being you removed the restrictor plate. Did you lean out the air or did you let more air in is there is so much air the cylinder ingests and that was the same air with the subs only it moved a little quicker in. Where is the lean?

Here is #4 Sub-mod:



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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bgordon

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Grand Junction, CO

Joined: 07/19/09

Posts: 1520

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/06/09 10:46 AM

Thanks for the post, Hub. It's GREAT to see you here! -bg

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/06/09 2:31 PM

Your Welcome, Bg. Let's start another chapter in the legacy of the 14. It might take awhile to settle in like the old forum. Either way, as long as you are waiting to build up a member base; I'm going to throw the tech your way. We will squeeze every angle out of the bike and bore those that are not into wrenching. They can have it done or they are going to miss the fun.

Drag race, road race, street race, track-day, touring, street riding in general... Street prep, race prep, touring prep is to say we have you covered mechanically too. Say we have you covered to enjoy your ride no matter how you sit on it is twist up the smiles. If you do not have the passion for riding and bikes in general, you are going to have a boring time here.

If you think your bike is going to control your wallet you making big mistakes, I've made a few for you to save some $$$ is feed your savings account for the next world beater. We have mods but more mine are stock. I run a stock bike so I am sitting in the cheap seats. Thing is, my bike runs to the point I do not want to mess with it. They run that well.

But, like you, there is always room for smoothing out the rough spots of a production bike. My end is give the bike a high performance tune-up. I do not tune bikes. I stay bone stock is beat the tuned bikes if you can imagine. To beat them is to join them.


* Last updated by: Hub on 2/18/2009 @ 8:06 AM *



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bgordon

Forum Administrator

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Grand Junction, CO

Joined: 07/19/09

Posts: 1520

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/06/09 2:35 PM

PERFECT!

Thanks, Hub. -bg

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JayFell


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Location: Brooklyn, NY

Joined: 02/09/09

Posts: 144

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/09/09 8:44 PM

I'm here to get raw and refined data off of Hubz, er Hub. But there was this guy on some other site named pissear.....


* Last updated by: JayFell on 2/10/2009 @ 5:50 AM *

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bgordon

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Location:

Grand Junction, CO

Joined: 07/19/09

Posts: 1520

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/10/09 7:42 AM

I'm here to get raw and refined data off of Hubz, er Hub. But there was this guy on some other site named pissear.....


We are VERY fortunate to have Hub's participation here. No question about it... -bg


* Last updated by: bgordon on 2/10/2009 @ 8:14 AM *

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/10/09 7:14 PM

http://www.smokinvette.com/corvetteforum/showthread.php?t=8585 If you wanna laugh; read what is under my name. This is a good troubleshoot ending post. Read the guy's answer at the bottom. His friend solved it. Makes sense. And now you have a tuning tip. Look at how that injector was working that ECU.

I am banned from most of the websites if you google, 'cntrhub'... They come up empty or a few I clicked onto, deleted my stuff. Some did; others did not. I learned just now from that old vette post. They banned me, I usually am too busy to go back being I am on another forum trying to solve the engine or trying to walk out that telemetry learning curve I am still green at. See the leaned out hindsight? Did you read that thread? It sure walked in the absolute cause and effect of the original symptom; once it was figured out.

Here, they know me...http://hondachopper.yuku.com/topic/16477?page=1

Here again, we get into some good heavy duty posts. They lock them once they are saturated. Then send them off to FAQ. Look down at the bottom page of this url. I am going to run this valve adjustment along with the book's way. See who is more accurate using the feelers. http://hondachopper.yuku.com/forums/9?page=6

Since the chopper place is SOHC CB750 only, it tells others to see it's sister site where it has more models and years to ask questions over there. The chopper guys, they do not tolerate any other model and usually lock a thread within 3 posts or so. I like it that way. It works out well. Knowing that only that specific engine family will be discussed. It is one big trivia stop. You know what parts work between years and what will not. So, it's very hard core; which keeps the riffraff out or it would be filled with DOHC and all Honda cc sizes being chopped.
Before the other 14 site shut down, we had a few hard core guys that wanted nothing to do with any other bike but the 14. So, I do not know what to expect here? I don't mind, but others like the two guys mentioned, they spoke up and out-voted me. So, for those two guys that made comment, I might send out a rant like the chopper guys or the two old 14 posters at the old site. Whomever shows up with another product to discuss, I might shout one out for those 2 old boys is keep it all 14.

BTW, You might have to hit a lot of Honda chopper posts to see if I am peppered in the FAQ. If you have a carb style bike, you could universally use the 750 data or just read the abstract to follow the fundamentals. Yeah, better you learn DFI first. Then you step backwards in time.. You will be so happy you are injected.

Guys! Pisser says, Thanks for the kudos/accolades, too... I am just having fun like everyone else with their bike(s).



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Rasher


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Joined: 02/23/09

Posts: 23

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/23/09 1:55 AM

Just ditch them, I have posted here on this:

http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=97584856-1372-66AE-3B3ABAF67C8A84DD



Flies Out \ PC3 \ Autocom \ Kwak Tall Screen \ Helibars \ Kawasaki Rack \ Givi Panniers and Top box (Ugh!) - Quick Detach :-) \ Tank Bag with Power - Magic! \ Novus Rider GPS (Camera Warning System)

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JDC


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Joined: 02/22/09

Posts: 404

RE: Subthrottle Mods
02/28/09 5:25 PM

When I removed mine on an 08 there was a slightly more lean mix then with them out... slightly. About 1/2 to 2/3's of a point, meaning from a 13.1 to midhigh to high 13's. No big deal. And that was only for the initial RPM spike in the low end, 3-4 K largely.

I have put them back in, and also left them in after installing the ATP turbo. Very nice. Some folks had considered they might interfere or cause issues under PSI, but near as I can tell the PSI and flies like each other.

And yes, it is fun to be confused by Hub again! LOL :)


* Last updated by: JDC on 2/28/2009 @ 5:27 PM *

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gumbybob


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Location: Litchfield, NH

Joined: 02/11/09

Posts: 132

RE: Subthrottle Mods
04/06/09 10:30 AM

Has anyone opened the flies like HUB's #4 technique suggests? (See the picture)
Seems like a really easy AND SAFE way to avoid stripped screws on the flies and a WHOLE lot faster.
Looks like it would only take a few minutes and no taking the bike apart to get to the flies.

Plus it's reversible....




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