Hey fellas-
Maybe you can shed some light on this: Having just purchased the Brock's CT Single, I do have the Brock's supplied street (pump gas) and race ( oxygen added race fuel) maps. I have NOT began my tuning process for this changed setup.
My previous config had Two BRO's m2 carbon slip ons and I used the stock head pipe (heat wrapped) with the divider trimmed back to allow o2 sesnor signal.
I happen to have a tankful of 100+ octane oxygen added race fuel in the bike right now. With the prior setup, it sure ran crazy good the one outing Ive had w that fuel and current map; a dynojet supplied map for the slip on config. I had made a few runs in the beginning of having the pcv / at 200 setup, accepted the trims and have been running trouble free since, leaving the at on.
Ok- here is my question- would the oxygen added race fuel cause the at/ pcv setup to run richer than usual? Not that I am having any negative effects or sooting. Just curious and wondering if my thinking is in the ballpark?
Clearly my upcoming tuning runs will be with pump gas, but I am left wondering if using the good fuel is wasted if
A user fails to switch to a race gas map before take off?
Further how would a race gas map differ? The added oxygen requires or allows more fuel use per intake?
Thank you for any help you can give...

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I had made a few runs in the beginning of having the pcv / at 200 setup, accepted the trims and have been running trouble free since, leaving the at on.

First, are you doing runs, or just riding before accepting trims?

If you just ride the bike like DJ says, you will probably get bad trims below 3200 rpm and I can't say how accurate they would be above that being that some or all of those trims would be recorded while rolling off throttle. This is normal riding, not a good tuning run. I did my first AutoTune adjustment "just riding." min/max trims were set at +/- 10 so couldn't have changed the map much after I accepted adjustments. It seemed to improve the flies open response but this is not what Romans told me was proper. It is in fact, wrong for the reasons I mentioned above-- off throttle exhaust reverberations and fuel dumps. Autotune will probably work very well for the cruising zone of the map even if you just ride the bike. If you leave AT ON, that will keep your AFR running at your desired number in the cruising zone. AT does not work very well for making corrections on the fly outside of the cruising zone although if set at +/- 15, probably will not hurt much either UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS.

I would not count on AT to self correct for race fuel, nitrous or boost outside of the cruising zone. In fact, I might even shut it off for those situations because proper AFR is probably more critical. If I am running a lean AFR with nitrous, I would not want AT accidentally leaning it out more in the upper rpm where I use my nitrous. That is how AT works, accidents back and forth---correcting + and - until it hits the AFR number you have in that cell of your map.

A tuning run is instant snap to desired TP at low rpm and hold until the bike stops accellerating then instant cut to 0% TP. DO NOT touch throttle, decel at 0%, accept trims. That way there is no possible way the fuel cut or reverberations or back and forth on the throttle can cause errant trims. Repeat this several times until you get all 0 or +/-1 for trims and I think a +/-2 here and there is probably acceptable.

Maybe you know all that. This is tutelage from Romans. As mentioned, just riding the bike seemed to work ok for my first adjustment but like you, I did not keep adjusting my map this way. It's not possible to get the map perfect in one or two runs. That I have seen with my own eyes. Autotune is too slow for that and that is why tuning on the fly doesn't work outside of the cruising range.

Ok- here is my question- would the oxygen added race fuel cause the at/ pcv setup to run richer than usual? Not that I am having any negative effects or sooting. Just curious and wondering if my thinking is in the ballpark?

Oxygenated fuel would burn leaner. You have oxy in your fuel on top of what is coming in the the intakes, right? So there is more oxygen in your AFR. AT would sense that and try its best to compensate (but maybe not entirely successful if you just ride the bike). So if AT was accurately sampling your exhaust from oxygenated fuel, it would ADD fuel to compensate for the leaner burn that must be happening. ...but if it adds fuel, it is adding oxygenated fuel. Every time AT adds fuel to compensate for extra air, it also gets more extra oxygen which is the only part of air AT really cares about. With enough runs, AT should eventually get the AFR right with oxygenated fuel. The more oxygen in the fuel, the longer the process would take.

Clearly my upcoming tuning runs will be with pump gas, but I am left wondering if using the good fuel is wasted if
A user fails to switch to a race gas map before take off?

Most definitely. The more air that is in the race fuel, the farther off will be the map made with ordinary fuel.

Further how would a race gas map differ?

The race gas map would be richer than a pump gas map. The confusing thing is that as the map adds more fuel, it also ads more oxygen so richening up the AFR is adding A (or O to be precise) as well as F. I presume there is proportionally far more fuel in the race gas than there is oxy. If there was a lot of oxy, seems to me you might never get a proper AFR because you can't control the amount of air that comes in by throttle. All you can do is control the amount of fuel. If the fuel already has a huge amount of oxy dissolved in it.....?? AT will keep adding fuel to compensate which adds even more oxy! At some point, (if stock injectors are physically able to flow a high enough volume) a balance would be reached but seems possible that could pack too much punch for a stock engine. You may require timing and compression adjustments if that gas contains a real lot of oxygen. --All just musings. That race gas can't contain that much oxygen or no one would bother with turbo. Just run oxygenated gas.

but anyway, the oxygenated fuel mapping would be richer than pump gas mapping even if you were using the same target AFRs in both maps. Oxygenated fuel with intake has more oxygen in it than pump gas with intake so the race fuel map needs to be richer to balance off the extra oxygen. How much extra oxygen there is in the fuel could have a big impact on the mapping.

The added oxygen requires or allows more fuel use per intake?

Very simple. Your cylinder can only hold so much volume (1441cc divided by 4 cylinders = 360.25cc). If your AFR is 13 parts air : 1 part fuel, your cylinder will hold 25.73 cc of fuel and 334.54 cc of air. That proportion should give you your best power with an acceptable safety margin for cylinder head temp. So that cylinder is limited to whatever hp 25.73 cc of fuel can produce. How to get more power??? sneak a way to cram more of that 13:1 ratio in there. AIR has a lot of STUFF in it that doesn't burn, most notably, CO2, H2O and god knows what else depending on the air quality. SO that 334.5 cc of ordinary air is not as good as pure oxygen which is the only part that really burns. Put pure oxy in your mix and now you can put more fuel in for a bigger BOOM! The extra fuel displaces some of that crappy ordinary air so you maintain your perfect 13 : 1 ratio while remaining within the confines of your 360.25 cc cylinder. Nitrous works the same. The basic principle is that you are creating a higher proportion of oxygen which allows you to introduce a larger amount of fuel which eliminates some of the normal, oxygen poor air.

Now how turbo works is beyond me because it is definitely all normal air. It doesn't drag on the engine but it does restrict the exhaust so I don't get how it results in a net gain but it does.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/7/2018 @ 9:11 PM *

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Up to you, bro but I would be careful about that race gas unless you have a very good idea of how much oxygen is going in your motor. Run the Control Center AFR gauge on your laptop or use a POD-300. Also be aware, your stock compression and timing has its limits. Seems unlikely oxygenated gas would pack as big a wallop as nitrous or turbo but IDK.....I have only tuned pump gas. Stock everything is ok for that but you start gaining big hp, you need lower compression and less timing.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/7/2018 @ 6:33 PM *

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Now how turbo works is beyond me because it is definitely all normal air. It doesn't drag on the engine but it does restrict the exhaust so I don't get how it results in a net gain but it does.

Basically it scavenges wasted/unused energy to turn the blades/gears/blades to increase intake pressure and stuff more air into the cylinders so you can squirt more fuel and still be stoichiometric and when burned generate more power... muuuuhhhhhhhhhahahahahhaha

Beside burning your $$$$ its free energy

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Apparently the extra air pressure results in more of a gain than the restriction of the exhaust. The engine doesn't need to suck air in, it's pumped in. It's still normal air and the space inside the cylinder is still the same. The law of conservation of energy is still the same. ...but who am i to argue?? If it works, it works. MWAhahahahaha! I must have it someday!!

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Clearly my upcoming tuning runs will be with pump gas, but I am left wondering if using the good fuel is wasted if A user fails to switch to a race gas map before take off?

If I watch my vacuum gauge in mmHg's, 760mmHg is equal to 14.7 psi or normally aspirated in cc volume in that cylinder.
If I look at my vacuum needle when the bike is turned off and not running, it reads 0 or 14.7 in atmospheric. If I WOT the throttle I can watch the needle be pulled to 0, or 14.7 is that same number in the normally aspiring part of the theory.
So therefore, one has to dispute there is 'more air' being pushed in when the intake valve closes. Nature fills a void within a balance = Atmospheric. The speed has to be in the sonic way of balancing, i.e., filling that void in a 'no more or no less' fashion which is back to atmospheric.
So therefore, a liquid and air in said AFR proportions have been measured by vacuum, speed, and temp, just to add a few calculating variables for said fixed 'Target.'

If you look at the oxy mix with the gas, the 'target' vs. the sniff of the 02 is going to automatically add or decrease the injector's opening and closing time in the calc, once the sniff is known.
If the target is 13.1 AFR, autotune will set the mapping for said temp of the day, and altitude.
So therefore, a morning map runs richer and should be saved for a sunset kind of track time. A hot day says lean or hot air has expanded the molecules.
So therefore, one would switch to autotune for a hot run at it, and target a leaner AFR than 13.1. Then switch the saved morning map for the later at night runs.

Further how would a race gas map differ?

Race gas wise, you're just packing more of a faster heat making compound to speed up the expansion rate. The AFR may not change that much or it may... only your AFR meter knows for sure.

Turbo and supercharge wise, these are fan blades that 'push more air' into a cylinder chamber in a linear sort of way. To do this, they first have to meet 14.7 psi and then it begins the pressure change for 'more air.'

Autotune wise, the bike has to be turned up in rpm increments so as to fill the cells for a full map change. You'd have to call tech or search how many runs down the track you'd need to complete a map to save for that kind of racing map covering the full rpm range.

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Thank you Hub, Rook, and Crude'-
All have good inputs. I am so excited to do actual comprehensive tuning runs!! Running the race gas just had me puzzling over the whole oxygen sensor effect of that fuel. I can tell you with certainty that my machine ran very well on that stuff. WOW! My target afr's right now are 13.1-13.2. This will all change when the tuning is complete. The Rook detailed Romans inspired tuning process seems to have sll the bases covered. I am anxious to see the target afrs in the Brocks racing gas map. Now on this turbo talk-I have always leaned toward blowers instead of turbos. The whole running off the crank rather than pushing an impeller with the exhaust just appeals to my mind. No turbo lag.
I dont see anyone talking about superchargers, so does that mean there is no such animal for a big Ninja?

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I dont see anyone talking about superchargers, so does that mean there is no such animal for a big Ninja?

TC = Exhaust driven.
Roots Blower = Belt driven.
SC = Gear driven.

The loophole for lag-free turbo application is to add an electric motor to begin the linear sooner for the bottom end. I raced a turbo equipped back in the day. It was heavy and its only advantage was down the straights.
A roots type has the unit in between the carb and head, then driven off of the crank. I had the honor to work with Jerry on a project but aborted it due to time restraints between race dates, plus a few nagging problems with the unit. It was too heavy and not practical for a road race bike. I would assume the compressor game would still be at the top end range. https://www.racingjunk.com/news/2015/03/04/remembering-jerry-magnuson/.
The SC type installed on the H2 is the way to go. The gear reduction ratio can spin the blade over 100,000 rpm, and this too takes the linear trail and can act quicker due to the gearing. The exhaust has to build up, the belt has to be fixed or you'll shred it off, but the gear driven can spin up the blade sooner.

so does that mean there is no such animal for a big Ninja?

That means the 1000cc H2 uses a light weight SC setup and runs a smaller engine bore. The trend in the auto field is to run turbos and squeeze the bore size down for emissions. You turbo the air to regain the power you lost in the bore size.
The way to go is use an electric motor to pack the bottom end due to the linear-lag, then turn it off when the SC/Roots/TC kicks in.

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Kawasaki has had a SC 1498cc motor in their jet ski for several years.

Rook: found something you can do with the Busa motor.......

Busa Motor + Jet Ski

https://youtu.be/W-uz-iR-wbw

Holy cow!! What kind of ponies does that monster make?
300+ !?

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I can tell you with certainty that my machine ran very well on that stuff. WOW! My target afr's right now are 13.1-13.2.

If I recall, Romans said the best AFR for the Gen2 was 13.5~13.7. It was a leaner AFR than the Gen1. Most maps will have different AFRs for different ranges of the map. This is probably to accommodate the various situations we are likely to ride in the street use. A race map might have less variety in target AFRs. I tuned for all 13.2 and it was not a great deal different than Romans map which has many AFRs.

Yeah, saw that already. I'd love to own a watercraft but I think I'll keep the busa for a land machine.

Holy cow!! What kind of ponies does that monster make?
300+ !?

I'm sure. 300 is no big deal for a turbo 14. Romans has boosted them to make over 300 hp on a stock engine with no problems. He kept increasing the boost pressure but he never found the breaking point--not that I know of. I'm sure he kept it under 400 hp. I have heard of 600 hp turbo bikes.

I think the issue with a supercharger on the 14 was cooling. The 1400 cc watercraft have no trouble cooling because they are cooled by the lake water rather than needing an onboard cooling system. People don't seem to complain about turbo lag with these bikes though. They're a lot lighter than cars and run at higher rpm so turbo works pretty good. You can run twin turbos like Hub mentioned but I don't hear of many bikes doing this. Really only heard of it once and IDK if that was even the case. They didn't show the engine so it may not have been turboed at all. Check youtube. Not much on twin turbos but plenty on turbo.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/8/2018 @ 3:48 PM *

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Yes that was the point of the target afrs comment. The supplied map from DJ runs those afrs.
Once my Tuning session goes down I aim to have those afrs more in the slightly leaner numbers reoommended by
Romans /Rookster diy. Yeah HAHAH That jet ski pilot laying flat and digging in, even lunging forward as he hits the throttle is quite a tell. That thing squirts across the water pulling some serious Gs.

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..just remember, tuning the top end is risky especially at the smaller TPs. You need to go pretty fast pretty long. The smaller TPs don't accelerate like WOT so you need lots of road and be willing to hold 'er steady for 20 seconds or so. 30 or 40 seconds would be better if you really want to hit the max rpm of smaller TPs. I don't have the balls to do that around here. There is a way to cheat. I've broken runs up to address a half or a third of the powerband. It works but it requires more runs which means more chance you will be seen on the road.

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When you mentioned Romans using diff afrs through his map did you happen to glean his logic driving this approach? Was he noticing what ratios felt / ran better at what TP or rpm?
Is there some fundemental truths about afrs a newb tuner ought to know concerning this?

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When you mentioned Romans using diff afrs through his map did you happen to glean his logic driving this approach? Was he noticing what ratios felt / ran better at what TP or rpm?

That's where I left off in my explorations into tuning. Actually the path has split into several directions but the multiple AFRs is the most mysterious. If Romans would get into these discussions more, that is probably the #1 question I would ask.

Is there some fundemental truths about afrs a newb tuner ought to know concerning this?

What I do remember Romans saying was rich for best torque, lean for best horse power. In addition to that, there is the cruising range where running quite lean might be considered desirable for fuel economy in a street map. I would need to look at more maps to see if there is a trend in the "AFR curve." I would bet there is. Also look at some race maps to see the dif in the AFR table from a street map. The AFR table is the real magic in a map. All the fuel table is is the adjustments to achieve those AFRs. There might be more to it than that but I have no indication AFR tuning is any more complex than use a good AFR table for your application and adjust fuel to achieve those AFRs. I've had a tuner tell me it's not that simple and Autotune will only mess up a good flash...of course, this is a guy who makes a living doing dyno-tune flashes so I take that with a grain of salt. If Autotune makes the bike hit his AFR numbers better, I don't see how this could be the case and there was no explanation offered.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/9/2018 @ 4:56 PM *

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Perfect. Good answers. My mind is working like yours in this regard.
Checking trends will be telling. Wringing my hands with anticipation.
Sadly I wont even get started for weeks. Much wrenching ahead of these procedures. This weekend is trailer fab, mod fest. Should end up with a pretty functional enclosed, ramp door trailer for the track days...

* Last updated by: ironheadmike on 2/9/2018 @ 7:17 PM *

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Sounds nice. Is that a trailer with a door and ramp or does the door drop down to make the ramp?

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The whole back opens bottom hinge and is a ramp.
Not a fancy store bought job but it will do.

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Heh--well you won't be riding the trailer so it doesn't need to be fancy as long as it gets er done.

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I love reading these tuning threads

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Stay tuned. Chapter II, Timing is coming this summer!

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/12/2018 @ 3:10 PM *

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Hey guys, sorry I'm late. Recently I have turned my attention to Turbocharged Snowmobiles. Managed to go from 190hp to 275hp. That's fun let me tell you lol. Also the HellCat has gone from 707hp to 1050hp. My brothers car made a little more. But that little more had a cost. His #2 pistons bounced down the track. Motor is out as we speak. So I can tell you what not to do here lol. But I'm still burning gas. Not to worry. Always looking for the next new Boosted toy.

In the thread above Sounds like Ironheadmike has been doing some digging and found the info needed.

Stay tuned. Chapter II, Timing is coming this summer!

Ahhh, The Holy Grail that few talk about. Massive Massive subject. Keeping it simple will be really hard to do.

After owning Seven ZX14s and Now with Zero, I must say I'm missing the ZX14 in the worst way. I do have my Eye squarely fixed on one. Should the deal go through Turbo will be installed the Next Day. I will post all steps. Pictures may be a problem with photobucket holding us ransome.

Talk Soon
Rick

Ahhh, The Holy Grail that few talk about. Massive Massive subject. Keeping it simple will be really hard to do.

AFR tuning actually turned out to be a lot simpler than I expected. I know there are all sorts of offshoot topics but for the guy who just wants to refine his fueling, it's not so bad. Timing, I think should be a lot simpler. Assuming it's a stock bike or one with basic mods, there is no "finding" anything. It's the same numbers for every Gen one and a little different set of numbers for a Gen2 but all are the same. One bike doesn't need a little different timing to optimize it. If that is he case, we don't have the technology readily available to the sportbiking public to monitor this like we do with AutoTune. SO, it's on map fits all. There are a few offshoots right away like addressing the multiple stock timing maps/gear and "Why not just do a TRE" but I can deal with that all in a tutorial that is less than one page, I think.

What we are really wondering about is the whys and hows of multiple AFRs in a fuel map. If 13.6 makes the best power for a Gen2, why not just paste 13.2 in all the target AFRs and tune for that? Go richer down low for better torque and lean on top for best hp? But what about in between??

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ROMANS!
So glad to see you here. I too love having my eyeballs flattened. Just curious on the turbo zx14 plan;
Is it a drag race application mainly, or a I have the fastest machine everywhere I go thing?
Does that giant jump in HP likely create putting the power to the ground issues like high powered autos?
Hope to pick your brain further soon enough.

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AFR tuning actually turned out to be a lot simpler than I expected.

When we started this talk in The Romans Flash Thread I thought it was going well too. My belief was I could teach all of you not to "Need" anyone else. That was until a forum member was revving his bike to Redline In neutral. In his garage no less. Then I realised explaining things like this can go very wrong. And they did. Bike to the shop.

Timing, I think should be a lot simpler.

Really,,,, ? Think of it this way, in my Engine where is my Maximum compression stroke ? In most engines it ranges from 5 to 15 degrees after top dead center. Ask yourself what happens when your timing is pushed to far ahead. Keeping it simple.... If you move your max compression stroke to far forward at what point does your engine run backwards ? Or you have your Max Compression at top dead center. Symptoms, claims your head gasket ? from here you get told Mechanic bullshit and order studs and springs.. which will help. But Now pistons Rods get a beating and they go. Now add bad fuel. Ya, To Far ahead has a price. Boost A whole other Animal. Nos plays here too. Power adders change Dynamic compression.

My brother ran only 2 degrees more timing than I did. I flat out refused while my car was still strapped on the Dyno. His car pulled 850hp to the wheels, mine 833hp. That 2 Degreeses cost him a very very expensive motor. I would like to think lesson learned but,,,,,,, Horsepower Greed Claims Many Willing Victims.

I don't know buddy. This could be allot tougher than you think. Very Crude above but I'm keeping it simple. I know you and you will do your research. Will make for a good read. I will help if I can but all my timing map pics are locked up in photo bucket.

It's the same numbers for every Gen one and a little different set of numbers for a Gen2

No the Map for the Gen1 compared to Gen2 is very different. Gen1 map has a hole in the bottom End. Also runs to much advance up top. I hate it. It can be fixed. Which is why I always told you Rook to pull timing before you spray that bike.

When playing with timing maps best results can be achieved with short term and long term data logging info coming from knock sensors. which we don't have. UGH !

What we are really wondering about is the whys and hows of multiple AFRs in a fuel map. If 13.6 makes the best power for a Gen2, why not just paste 13.2 in all the target AFRs and tune for that? Go richer down low for better torque and lean on top for best hp? But what about in between??

First Gen ZX14 ran the track fastest with 13.1 13.2 AFR. Second Gen 13.8 If I was picking one AFR for both bikes it would be 13.5 For whatever reason they both sound better here. Engine sounds and smells happy. just my opinion.

If you run rich best torque every where in the prm rage your just wasting fuel fouling plugs etc
If you Run Lean best power you can run to hot. Now remember we are talking every day street bike.

So glad to see you here. I too love having my eyeballs flattened. Just curious on the turbo zx14 plan;
Is it a drag race application mainly, or a I have the fastest machine everywhere I go thing?

Street Bikes are my thing. I ride them everywhere just like all of you do. No matter how long or how far. After having a 500hp bike I doubt I will go that route again. Not that I didn't absolutely love it, but it is really alot of Flipping Power. Not to mention Expensive. No street tire can hold it. If doing a thousand foot burn out at 150mph is your thing have at it. Words can't describe. I will Always Love Boost. No more Fun on two wheels can had if your riding a Boosted ZX14. Promise !