I don't think they are incorrect, provided you add in the bearing weights as I did. But my point was that the bSTs are not ALWAYS the best solution for the ZX-14R, as some other notably less costly wheels come veyr clsoe to their weight.

Jim G

Add .40 lb. (0.181 kg) with Worldwide Bearings ceramic bearings
Add .45 lb. (0.204 kg) with Worldwide Bearings steel bearings

Bearings are about a pound and I'd say that is close to static weight because they are right on the axle rather than out on the spokes or rim.

After adding the stated weight of bearings, RapidTeks are 7 lbs for a front and 9 lbs for a rear according to Brock's information. That's about 25% lighter than my Carrazzerias with everything except rotors, rotor bolts and sprocket. BSTs are roughly 80~100% more expensive however.

I have pics at home from a Hayabusa owner with the traditional design BST rims on his scale. It appears the front has bearings because I see the red race. The rear, I cannot tell because there is a spacer over the race but I assume the bearings are in the rear wheel as well. The front with bearings and rotor carriers (I see at least one carrier, I assume there are two) is actually 1 oz lighter than the weight Brocks states. The rear is almost exactly 1 lb lighter than what Brock states for the lightest 5 spoke rear BST!

It was 3.85 kg for the rear and 2.50 kg for the front. The wheels are each hung on the scale through a rotor bolt hole. I see bearings on the front.

I will definitely get confirmation of weight from Brock's before I lay out that kind of doe though. Thanks for raising the possibility that the stated weights might be a bit misleading.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/4/2019 @ 10:15 AM *

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Yes, good to get the confirmation, via email not verbal, from Brocks. My BST wheels for my R3 ended up weighing about a pound more than everyone told me they would.

Jim G

Argh!

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Rook, I emailed RC Performance and a couple other suppliers of the Catalyst Drag seat. Chuck Bowyer at RC provided the most complete answers to my questions on the Catalyst seat:

1. What is the weight? 2.7 #'s

2. How much does it lower the seat height versus an OEM seat? 2" or more lower

3. Is it quick attach / detach, or ? (i.e.how hard /slow to switch back and forth with OEM seat?) Very easy 2 bolts at rear need to be removed as they secure the drag seat to subframe

4. Requires ONLY the removal of the OEM seat? (i.e. other bodywork stays undisturbed?) Only your factory seat unit needs to be removed

Look at the implications of this:

1. The OEM seat on my Gen 2 ZX-14R weighs 8.1 lb, so you can save 5.4 lb! Do note however thta Catalyst itself says the weight varies, and one other supplier weighed one that was 3.0 lb.

2. You can get 2" lower for lower center of gravity, which helps both dragracing and normal handling, as well as just keeping the bike balanced upright.

3. Not exactly "quick detach", but not bad. You COULD swap back and forth with the oEM seat.

4. No other parts other than your seat need to be removed or added when changing over.

The only negatives I have found so far:

1. Hard rearward acceleration can cause the rear mounting bolts to crack the fiberglass seat base. Many vendors suggest a metal reinforcement pate be installed to help hold the seat forward.

2. The seta comes with primer finish only, so you need to get it painted. Mid-gloss Black is probably the best color.

3. There is NO foam padding. You could alleviate this by adding a thin seat for the rider (driver) like you see on most sportbikes that have a separate rider and passenger seat. This would add back 2 to 3 b if done right, but you'd still be down 2 or 3 lb. in weight.

4. Not sure how good it would look away from a dragstrip.

Jim G

2. The seta comes with primer finish only, so you need to get it painted. Mid-gloss Black is probably the best color.

I suggest Krylon semi-gloss black spray enamel. After a couple weeks of curing it matches the rear view mirror paint perfectly. Easy to apply a good looking coat. No need for a pro painter unless you are doing gloss. Cover the paint with black memory foam.

4. Not sure how good it would look away from a dragstrip.

It will look like a race bike.

I love the skinny waisted look. Only think is I would really prefer to be able to sit farther back as well as lower in the seat. If they are not using the OEM seat lock, they could have made the seat longer and it would look better and be more useable for me.

I think it looks good as is but I doubt very much it will be comfortable. If you aren't too heavy, it might be ok for an extended ride. I'd do it. I may try making my own one day.

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My stock seat weighs exactly 5 lbs. I took it to my local upholstery guy and told him to take as much out of teh drivers portion as he could, leaving me enough for teh cover to survive and not wear too rapidly.. IIRC I gave him a hundred bucks... I bought a used stock seat and now can easily switch back and forth.

* Last updated by: chrly on 2/11/2019 @ 3:11 PM *

Rook , scanning your stuff here for ideas :) but I came across one that needs consideration.. If you are going to race at a track, I would suggest leaving coolant overflow as is (at least on Gen 2) as tracks frown on coolants going directly to ground and have seen a "dripper" pulled off teh start grid.

chrly: I took mt Gen 2 (2017) seat to the local custom auto upholstery guy this morning, and he is going to take at least an inch out of its height in the driver's portion.

I am doing this mainly to enhance my ability to reach the ground easier (I am about 5' 8" and have a 29" inseam), along with ordering a set of footpeg "offsets" to move the footpegs rearward to get them out of where I want my legs to be.

But i figured Rook would want to know the weight of the Catalyst seat, as the BIG weight reduction there is much larger than his ounce-at-a-time current remaining weight reduction opportunities.

Jim G

Here's another reply from another Catalyst seat supplier, that did not anseer all the questions, but has good info in it on mounting the Catalyst seat:

Hi James, thanks for your email.

1. What is the weight? 3 LBS 0 OZ

2. How much does it lower the seat height versus an OEM seat? I do not have this number for you.

3. Is it quick attach / detach, or ? (i.e.how hard /slow to switch back and forth with OEM seat?) The Catalyst seat has two notches in the front to fit where your factory seat latches and two pads at the rear to bolt to the factory subframe.

4. Requires ONLY the removal of the OEM seat? (i.e. other bodywork stays undisturbed?) I believe this is true. I'm sorry I have not personally installed the seat.

5. What is the “Tailbone” quick release your website mentions? It is a quick release system for the rear of the Outlaw and ProStreet Tails. I am working on a version to fit the Drag Step Seat, but it is not yet available.

6. You are going to have a “seat brace” available for this soon? Not soon, sorry. Your best option is to use the seat brace from OSR.

Thank you,

Todd Heiser
Dogwood Racing
321-228-1105
www.dogwoodracing.com

This illustrates how you have to get info from multiple sources to get a complete picture.

Jim G

Here's the winner of the "poorest answers yet" award. This is not a joke. This is the actual reply I got, copied and pasted to here:

James,
Thank you for reaching out.
1. What does it weigh? This a great question we have not started to weigh items and logging the information.
We do plan on starting to this but it has not started yet. We can see if we have one built... Details to be seen

2. Its about a could inches.. I was never truly measured out. But was design with Drag racing in mind.

3. Yes, Would in theory fit rear oem bodywork.

iOneMoto
1.772.388.9621
The home of SharkSkinz, TighTails and Catalyst.

Incredible. The part is made for drag racing and they actually don't even bother to figure out how much it weighs??? And they can't tell you how much lower it positions you? (It's only one of the prime objectives). And they have never actually mounted it onto a ZX-14R to see how it fits with OEM parts??

If this is the design mentality and skill, no wonder the seat is cracking in service . . .

Yikes.

Jim G

My stock seat weighs exactly 5 lbs. I took it to my local upholstery guy and told him to take as much out of teh drivers portion as he could, leaving me enough for teh cover to survive and not wear too rapidly.. IIRC I gave him a hundred bucks... I bought a used stock seat and now can easily switch back and forth.

Looks good chrly. I'll bet if you saw the back off, that will drop it another 3 lbs. You have the front seat lock to secure the seat. No need for the rear seat lock ---or the rear seat. That's my plan.

Rook , scanning your stuff here for ideas :) but I came across one that needs consideration.. If you are going to race at a track, I would suggest leaving coolant overflow as is (at least on Gen 2) as tracks frown on coolants going directly to ground and have seen a "dripper" pulled off teh start grid.

Duly noted, chrly. It's easy enough to put back on but then again, I could say that about a lot of things and it would all amount to a huge project.

i figured Rook would want to know the weight of the Catalyst seat, as the BIG weight reduction there is much larger than his ounce-at-a-time current remaining weight reduction opportunities.

I'd still do the ounce / time mods but the seat is a priority.

If this is the design mentality and skill, no wonder the seat is cracking in service . . .

That reads very much like an auto-translation to English. I'm sure ( I would hope) they are not the manufacturer of Catalyst bodywork but just a dealer. Yes---If I could be in that business, I would know everything about everything I carried...but that is why I probably would not make a dime. Sad.

This is a lot like my frustration with 11-present BST wheels fitment to 2008 Hayabusa. No one knows for sure if it works. Am I the only one in the world who ever wanted the lightest set of BSTs for my busa???

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/13/2019 @ 6:44 AM *

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Sawing off the passenger seat section won't work with the Gen 2 seat because:
- The entire seat - rider and passenger - is one piece
- If you saw the back half off, there is no transition piece bewteen the front half anf the rear cowl - just a big "hole"!

My Gen 2 seat is at the local hotrod-custom- motorcycle upholsterer right now, being "scooped" to lower it at least one inch (I have a 29" inseam). And, I took off the cowl instead and that way at least saved the 1.17 lb that the Gen 2 cowl weighs.

Jim G

Sawing off the passenger seat section won't work with the Gen 2 seat because:
- The entire seat - rider and passenger - is one piece
- If you saw the back half off, there is no transition piece bewteen the front half anf the rear cowl - just a big "hole"!

Don't quote me but I am pretty sure all seats are interchangeable between Gen 1 and Gen2.

The front seat lock is right behind the back of the riders seat. As long as you leave the seat lock pins on, you can get rid of the rest. i would plan on getting rid of the pins and the lock too. remove the lock and put a plastic spacer in there and bolt the seat down. That's almost another half pound.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/13/2019 @ 2:45 PM *

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I notice that the aftermarket seat makers differentiate between Gen 1 and Gen 2. I think the problem arises because even if the mounting is the same for Gen 1 and Gen 2, the specific shape of the seat, and the specific shape of the rear seat cowl, are different. You can't mix them.

I suspect that you may be "correct" for a different reason though: IF you use BOTH a cut-off Gen 2 seat and a Gen 2 cowl, then VISUALLY the combination might LOOK fine (at least until you get pretty close) BUT rain, or a bike wash, would flood the critical electronics housed under the cowl, because the Gen 2 has no selaing provisions once you lop off the rear portion.. Plus, you obviously cannot just "cut" the vinyl upholstery. You have to recover the driver portion entirely, which is costly. Even if you have the required skills to recover a seat (I for example do not), you still need an AIR POWERED stapler (a manual stapler can't drive the staples properly through the plastic seat base).

I really think that if you want to go the weight reduction route with the seat, your best combination of cost and appearance might be to buy a Catalyst seat/fairing, paint it black to match other back parts on the bike, reinforce its underside with metal plate against cracking (both vertically and under hard acceleration), and then add an upholstered driver seat that looks like the driver's seat on any of the true sportbikes, so that you are not sitting on just fiberglass.

With that approach, you minimize costs (because your OEM seat is saleable), you get your center of gravity lower, you have shorter reach to get your feet on the ground, and you actually lose 2 to 3 lb.

I can't take that approach without also keeping the OEM seat, as my wife wants to be able to come as a passenger, so my "best" solution, which is a big weight compromise, is to simply take off the seat cowl and scoop the driver's portion of the seat an inch or more lower. I save the 1.17 lb of the Gen 2 cowl plus a tiny bit of foam weight reduction. :)

Jim G

Rook: Here's another example of really bad info from a seller:

The OEM kickstand on the ZX-14 apaprently weighs 1.16 lb.

There is a simple NON-adjustable kickstand on eBay, which SHOULD be lighter than an adjustable one, as you don't have 2 thicknesses of tubing involved. I asked the seller what it weighs and if it supports continued use of the factory kickstand's safety switch.

The answer I got on the weight was "1 kilogram". This is about twice the weight of the OEM STEEL kickstand, and is totally preposterous.

The seller ignored the question on whether or not the stand supports the use of the safety switch. :(

Sigh . . .

It's a miracle you got enough good info to drop 75 lb off your ZX.

Jim G

Rook: Here's another example of really bad info from a seller:

The OEM kickstand on the ZX-14 apaprently weighs 1.16 lb.

There is a simple NON-adjustable kickstand on eBay, which SHOULD be lighter than an adjustable one, as you don't have 2 thicknesses of tubing involved. I asked the seller what it weighs and if it supports continued use of the factory kickstand's safety switch.

The answer I got on the weight was "1 kilogram". This is about twice the weight of the OEM STEEL kickstand, and is totally preposterous.

The seller ignored the question on whether or not the stand supports the use of the safety switch. :(

Sigh . . .

It's a miracle you got enough good info to drop 75 lb off your ZX.

Jim G

Are the kickstands different on Gen 1 and Gen 2, or for individual model years?

I'm asking because I see many kickstand ads on eBay which show "compatioble with" tables with ranges like 2006 - 2013, and other model year ranges. Are these because there really are differences from year to year, or simply because a kickstand compatibility tables was prepared in say 2013, and never updated?

Some of the kickstands look really wild and "spindly" when you look closely. Like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/312332330963

(Notice all the cutouts in it!)

Then, there are these, which would SEEM to be lightweight because they are not adjustable:

https://www.sixty61.com/KAWASAKI-ZX-14R-BLACK-2006-2016-CUSTOM-KICKSTAND-p/a3064ab.htm

But I cannot get an accurate weight from the seller!

Jim G

BUT rain, or a bike wash, would flood the critical electronics housed under the cowl, because the Gen 2 has no selaing provisions once you lop off the rear portion.. Plus, you obviously cannot just "cut" the vinyl upholstery. You have to recover the driver portion entirely, which is costly.

Yep, you would need to be very careful washing the bike no matter what year the seat or the bike was. If you get caught in a heavy rain, you're screwed. I already have a bunch of non waterproof gauges out on my handlebars and have a penchant for using racing slicks on the street. I avoid rain like the plague.

As far as re-covering the seat after chopping it, you leave the vinyl cover intact and yes, you would need to staple or fasten it securely somehow. Looks like chrly's upholsterer just glued his down across the front where all the padding was removed. I believe Goop silicone adhesive would work very well for this. IDK about the sewing and the stapling...there would be a way to do it but it would be labor intensive for a person with no experience. If you have more $$ than time, buying a catalyst would be an option. I think an upholsterer might be a bit cheaper and you would end up with the same result in weight loss.

your best combination of cost and appearance might be to buy a Catalyst seat/fairing, paint it black to match other back parts on the bike, reinforce its underside with metal plate against cracking (both vertically and under hard acceleration), and then add an upholstered driver seat that looks like the driver's seat on any of the true sportbikes, so that you are not sitting on just fiberglass.

I think that would all add up to about the same as the OEM seat's weight.

(because your OEM seat is saleable)

I easily talked my Ebay seller down to $70.

It's a miracle you got enough good info to drop 75 lb off your ZX.

LOL I didn't know most of it until I received the products.

Some of the kickstands look really wild and "spindly" when you look closely. Like this one:

Yeah, that one is a doozie. No thanks. Looks cool but looks pretty unreliable.

Then, there are these, which would SEEM to be lightweight because they are not adjustable:
https://www.sixty61.com/KAWASAKI-ZX-14R-BLACK-2006-2016-CUSTOM-KICKSTAND-p/a3064ab.htm
But I cannot get an accurate weight from the seller!

The outer tube on my adjustable is hollow of course. I think that one would be about the same weight as mine. Rule of thumb, if it's billet, it will be about half the weight of steel....usually. I have a cheap Chinese billet gas cap that is the same weight as OEM.

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Rook, I just had to laugh at the latest seller reply, which just now arrived, for:

https://www.sixty61.com/KAWASAKI-ZX-14R-BLACK-2006-2016-CUSTOM-KICKSTAND-p/a3064ab.htm

They say it weighs THREE lb, despite the fact that aluminum weighs about 1/3 what steel does per cubic inch.

I asked them HOW they "weighed" it. :)

Jim G

Rook

As far as re-covering the seat after chopping it, you leave the vinyl cover intact and yes, you would need to staple or fasten it securely somehow. Looks like chrly's upholsterer just glued his down across the front where all the padding was removed.

Not glued, just a good upholsterer ;) He lft just enough foam on the seat so as to prevent early wear.. I have ridden on it all day, couple hundred miles without discomfort.

* Last updated by: chrly on 2/14/2019 @ 9:23 AM *

They say it weighs THREE lb, despite the fact that aluminum weighs about 1/3 what steel does per cubic inch.
I asked them HOW they "weighed" it. :)

I got an answer like that one time and they told me it was the shipping weight. Anything under 3 lbs is still considered three lbs. Not a very helpful answer.

He lft just enough foam on the seat so as to prevent early wear.. I have ridden on it all day, couple hundred miles without discomfort.

I am going to try the same thing. I also like the way the back of the seat has that concave pocket. It looks like the seat was designed to be the shape you made it.

I'd have to try it out but it seems like I might have more room to slide back and flatten down on a stock seat. The back of my rear end actually is a little bit on top of the seat cowl when I tuck in atop the stock seat. If I scoop all that foam out, it'll lower my rump but it isn't going to let it slide back as far.

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It is important to ask ALL the questions! here's why:

I emailed the folks with the "3 lb" aluminum kickstand expressing my disbelief, ad sure enough, I got a reply that "Dalia" was pretty sure that the warehouse guys had simply looked up the automatically generated "ship weight" which as you suspected, is a minimum of 3 lb. Dalia assured me they would now instead ask for the specific part weight alone (which I had emphasized in the first place :) ).

She wrote back to me a couple hours later that the real weight is 0.75 lb. This yields a 0.4 lb saving versus OEM, AND has the advantage of being stronger than an adjustable kickstand.

This kickstand is by far NOT the cheapest. It costs $115 US.

Next obvious question was shipping cost. The site promises free shipping to The U.S., but warns that internaitonal shipping of course is not included in this offer. Fair enough.

So, I used the website's cart system to get a shipping quote to Canada via USPS (which also turns out to be their ONLY international shipping option. Good thing I asked. It $44 to ship to Canada! That's about 40% more on top of the part cost.

Here's how the total real cost to me would stack up:
Kickstand $115US
USPS $44US
Total US = $159
Total converted to Canadian dollars, including the 2.5% conversion fee added by the credit card issuer = $197CDN
Plus 12% Canadian Federal and Provincial tax added at Customs =$24
Plus $10 import service fee charged by Canada Post = $10
= total $231 CDN.

Oops.

That's a bit much . . . :(

And why can the Chinese sellers sell it for about $40 CDN INCLUDING shipping from HONG KONG??

Sigh . . .

Back to the drawing board . . . :)

Jim G

Ouch. Modding a Canadian bike is expensive.

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Other ideas for weight reduction:
CF rear subframe, about half stock 2.5# total.
CF lowered gas tank, about half stock, 4.5# total.
CF clip ons (458 grams / 248 grams)
CF engine access covers (372grams/190grams)
CF air filter cover (CF versions are less than half stock weight 70/32grams)
CF fixed rearsets
CF one piece tail with glued brake lights less than half stock.
CF generator cover, less than half stock.
CF crankcase breather cover with catch can, less than half stock.
CF levers, damp vibration, weigh 1/3 stock
CF motor mounts, about 1/3 stock
CF fan brackets, 1/3 stock
CF one piece race front fairing with a single hid headlight should save about 9#, the aftermarket HID is about 1#, stock headlights are about 9#.
Berringer rear brake setup (1389 grams / 835.74 grams)
Bored throttle body with secondary butterfly and stepper motor completely removed.
Custom front subframe with piston style steering damper incorporated weighs about half the stock setup.
Aluminum 7075 (134/48grams)
Ti clutch spring perches
Ti axle,
Ti swingarm pivot
Ti motor mount bolts
Ti clutch nut
Ti drive sprocket nut
Brilotech brake rotors, .5 - .75% of stock rotors. Rear (1100 grams /570-420race grams)
Minimized keyless upper triple clamp,
Lightweight sprocket cover/clutch mount (1250 / 732 grams)
Brock's adjustable window lowering links are almost half the weight of stock suspension links

Minimized tone wheels weigh about 1/3 stock..

I'm going with a two piece seat with bolted down and more aerodynamic rear cover, with the seat cut down and only one seat lock, moved forward.

That's about it off the top of my head..

* Last updated by: CoolBrzBlu on 2/21/2019 @ 11:21 PM *

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