This is a follow-up to a previous post on "new-to-me '08 ZX14".
Finally got the beast out to 2 Wheel Dyno Works, which is about 50 miles from where I live. The bike had just over 15K so had them do everything appropriate for that mileage, including the valve clearance check. All the valves were a little tight, so I'm glad I got that addressed. I am the 4th owner and not sure what was done prior to my buying it this past June. Consequently, had them change all fluids, including clutch, so I had a maintenance baseline. Air filter was a washable type, so they just cleaned it.
Nils put it on the dyno and determined it was running quite rich. It has Yoshi carbon fiber mufflers with the baffles inserted. Bike had a Power Commander 3 installed when I got it. A tune picked up almost 10HP to ~175 at the top end, and a little torque. Below is the dyno chart. Red curves are after the tune. Nate the office mgr's statement was that these are very good numbers for a Gen 1 with this exhaust. They predicted I would see better gas mileage, but the jury is still out on that until I ride it more and fill it a couple of times. Overall, I'm really happy with the bike and how strong and smooth it runs.

Good job on getting the bike all sorted out, its nice to know everything is now good for many miles and years to come. When my Gen 1 was due for the 15K valve check/adjust I found similar results as you. I also learned trying to get or buy the correct shims that around LA almost no one does this maintenance because of the cost (~1K) they just trade in for a different bike.

Nice dyno results, I had similar results and what I remember the most was how the throttle response was so much cleaner and chrisp.

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I'd like to see the air-fuel graph too...

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Glad you got her done. Wish I would have known your visit, would have stopped by to say hi. Bout what I got with my Yoshi slip ons. Nel's is awesome for adjusting fuel to match accessories. Did he change the flies to open at a lower RPM and up the rev limiter? Nel's got me up to 183 with a Hindle 4-1 exhaust and pair block offs. Bonus is the 30lbs weight reduction.

Dave

That does sound very healthy for a 11 year old bike or even a brand new Gen1!

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Thanks, everyone, for your comments and questions. I forgot to mention that the valve cover gasket had been leaking a little so that was replaced with updated version. As all of you know, the early Gen 1's had an issue with the gasket needing a redesign.

around LA almost no one does this maintenance because of the cost (~1K) they just trade in for a different bike.

. The valve work did cost a bundle, that's for sure. I can see why some less committed owners would just pass on this maintenance to another owner. When I bought the bike it had 14K so I knew from lurking on this forum that the valve check was coming soon and planned for it. I'm real glad everything now is fresh and tuned so I can just ride it. It was expensive but worth it to me to have someone who knows what they are doing turning the wrenches.

I'd like to see the air-fuel graph too

. I did not think to ask for this so will email the shop and see if they have this info.

Did he change the flies to open at a lower RPM and up the rev limiter?

I will have to ask about this too. Sorry David, it never occurred to me to let you know I was heading to 2WDW. If I go that way again I'll let you know. Failing that, we can meet somewhere next spring/summer.
Thanks again

In response to a couple of questions, here is more info as furnished by 2Wheel DynoWorks:
1)

I'd like to see the air-fuel graph too

air/fuel results are now below HP/ torque curve...

Could someone please explain what the air/fuel graphs are showing, as related to the HP/torque curves? I have a vague idea, but welcome input.

2)

Did he change the flies to open at a lower RPM and up the rev limiter?

response from 2WDW-The secondary throttle plates DO now open quicker on the bottom end of the RPM range. The rev limiter has NOT been changed (there would be no reason to with the baffles in place).
just to clarify, from 2Fast4me ... The baffles are in the Yoshi mufflers. With them out it was too loud for me.

* Last updated by: 2fast4me on 11/6/2019 @ 3:15 PM *

Could someone please explain what the air/fuel graphs are showing, as related to the HP/torque curves? I have a vague idea, but welcome input.

Here's what I think and someone please correct me if I'm wrong:

The red line is the AFR they tuned your bike to run at. Looks to me to be about 13.5 AFR. The blue line is what it was running at before the tune.

The higher the AFR number the leaner the AFR is. Your bike was running richer before the tune. The before and after numbers look normal according to what I know about the Gen1. I would not shoot for leaner than 13.5 or you may be burning it too hot. ...and 13.5 is where you should make the best hp anyway so no need to go leaner. You might actually loose hp by going too lean.

I heard that running rich makes better torque so it may be desirable to have a lower AFR number down low. Most maps you look at do have multiple AFR numbers. They are designed to produce optimum engine performance at various throttle positions and rpm. I still have not figured all of this out though. Your map probably DOES have multiple AFRs. This graph is only showing 100% throttle. Your smaller throttle positions might have a richer AFR in the low and mid range.

When I tuned my bike, I shot for 13.5 across the board (all TPs / all rpm). I could not tell much improvement from the base map which had multiple AFRs.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/7/2019 @ 6:23 AM *

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I hear you on how loud the bike can be with baffles out.

The air/fuel graph is showing dashed line is optimal ratio of fuel to air. The blue line, your base line run shows your bike was a little off in the upper RPM. Probably because the slips flow a little better. By remapping the fuel through the RPM range and getting the optimal ratio, the red line on the adjusted run that's where the gains come from. I don't know if Nel's tweaks timing.

Dave

Ah-- I see there is the blue line and the the dashed line AND then there is a third line running over the dashed line. That third line shows the correction from the blue line. So he's got it dang near perfect on the dashed line.

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Thanks for posting the A-F traces.
Coupla things...while he says the RPM limit wasn't raised, the red trace extends 500 RPM's further than the original (blue) trace. I presume this to be co-incidence or that he rolled off the throttle earlier.
I was curious as to what the stock A-F looked like and would guess it's lean at lower RPM's to pass EPA emission testing. I'd also guess it richens up as a safeguard against engine damage although 12.0 is pretty darn rich.
Dirty air filter maybe or purposely done by the factory to compensate for changes that occur when ram air comes into play. If that's the case, what happens to the new tune when ram air takes over?
Finally, leaning out the mixture gained 9 HP at about 10,000 RPM's...a nice gain...
Most importantly, how does the bike feel now and have you gained any fuel mileage?
One of the guys mentioned timing changes...most of the flashers do incorporate timing changes in their tunes.

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If that's the case, what happens to the new tune when ram air takes over?

Nel's has high flow fans tied into his dyno aimed at the front of the bike to simulate the effect of ram air.
The yoshis flow better causing the engine to also run leaner so Nel's probably still had to add more fuel to hit those AFR numbers which means the fuel economy still will suffer a little.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone.
I've ridden the bike a couple of times since bringing it home from 2WDW last Friday. I can't say it runs dramatically better; it ran well before so I was not expecting a big improvement. I probably ride less aggressively (hence the handle 2fast4me ) than most if not at all of you, so what improvement there might be at upper RPM is still unexplored territory. It does seem to pull a little smoother from lower RPM. Engine vibration, which was low anyway, might be slightly improved. Again, the difference is not great.

Fuel mileage change has yet to be determined. The fuel "Average" on the display actually dropped a few 1/10th's since the 2WDW tune but I am not assuming that is necessarily accurate. I'll have to put a couple of tankfuls of gas through it before I really know about mileage change. It was getting 37-38 when I bought it this summer.
The bike has a washable air filter, which 2WDW cleaned even though it was not very dirty.

When I bought the bike the baffles were out of the Yoshi's. I put them in to quiet it down a little. Do you think adding the baffles changed the AFR? Is it possible that when I added the baffles it made the engine run richer?

while he says the RPM limit wasn't raised, the red trace extends 500 RPM's further than the original (blue) trace. I presume this to be co-incidence or that he rolled off the throttle earlier.

I noticed this too but don't have any explanation. I have never taken it near redline, so can't tell you if it is now higher than before the work was done.

Those numbers are a good start, but you can get so much more out of the old girl.
I had my '08 ECU flashed with Woolich software and custom dyno'd - results were a mind blowing 192.6 HP : 115 NM torque.

* Last updated by: Yackou on 11/7/2019 @ 10:03 PM *

I can't say it runs dramatically better; it ran well before so I was not expecting a big improvement. I probably ride less aggressively (hence the handle 2fast4me ) than most if not at all of you, so what improvement there might be at upper RPM is still unexplored territory. It does seem to pull a little smoother from lower RPM. Engine vibration, which was low anyway, might be slightly improved. Again, the difference is not great.

Thanks for the honest review. I concur with you whole heartedly on all of your observations. Like you, I do not ride my 08 hard but for short bursts so it is difficult to say if the max performance is much different after autotuning from a very well respected base map. The bike was always good before tuning and after. Yes, the low end where I ride all the time is definitely smoother. It will now pull hard from 2000 rpm in 6th gear at WOT where it bogged before tuning even with the good map I had. The flies open throttle response is smoother (I have flies out but there is still a slight zip at about 2700 rpm). I've never tried a flash but my opinion on tuning based on what I have tried is that it is not the magic bullet so many people have touted it to be. It helps, yes and I would say it;s worth a few hundred bucks but it's not going to transform the bike. Nels, Woolwich, Guhl, Ivan...they all know the same things about tuning a 14. Some are a little more aggressive and some are more safe. As far as dyno numbers, they differ from one to the next and sometimes by a lot. A dyno gives a good idea of how much improvement the tune made but I wouldn't compare your bike against another unless it was same day same dyno.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/8/2019 @ 6:43 AM *

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I was curious as to what the stock A-F looked like and would guess it's lean at lower RPM's to pass EPA emission testing. I'd also guess it richens up as a safeguard against engine damage although 12.0 is pretty darn rich.

HanksZX,

These charts aren't with a stock fuel map, 2fast4me's bike came with a PC3 from a previous owner with a map already loaded.

...unless Nels tossed the old map and started with a zero map in the PC3. I would assume that is what he would do especially if he was flashing the ECU. I would want the stock values reprogrammed without any PC3 mapping. That way, if I ever wanted to adjust the map, I would know the numbers I put in the PC3 were my numbers and all I had to do to go back to the flash is zero everything.

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This is almost identical to the dyno curves I got on my 2006 ZX 14 which was tuned by Ryan Schnitz. I had a Brocks pipe and stock air filter. Ryan considered these very good numbers for a otherwise stock ZX14 with a pipe at the time.

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