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Thread: Tight front brake

Created on: 05/26/21 02:33 PM

Replies: 24

alg8er


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Joined: 02/10/09

Posts: 1217

Tight front brake
05/26/21 2:33 PM

Pulled the wheels and had new tires mounted over winter. Removal went smooth (thanks Rook! Spark plug socket saved me), but when i tried to remount the front calipers, I couldn't get the pads spread enough to fit over discs. Finally got the left side spread enough but that closed the right side tight. Opened the bleeder, spread the pads, closed bleeder. Got everything torqued, spun the wheel, tried the brakes, everything good. Put the rear on no problem. Rolled the bike out and brakes were fine. Tried to go for 1st ride today and front brake lever is tight as a drum and brakes are locked. Need new fluid so can't bleed yet, but thinking something got plugged somehow.



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cruderudy


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Location: AMR

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RE: Tight front brake
05/26/21 3:33 PM

From your description of how hard it was to press in the pads to clear the rotor and remove the wheel, sounds like the piston is binding and not relaxing after the pressure from squeezing the lever is removed. Rook says if you have aftermarket levers to check the lever pivot for binding.

Dont know what else it could be other than 1) calipers/piston not functioning correctly or 2) the lever pivot issue or 3) master cylinder rat fucked



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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
05/26/21 6:06 PM

It removed easy. Seems like while bike sat without wheel the fluid pushed the pistons out and can't flow back out to relieve pressure. Lever is oem, and zero play. Almost solid. Fluid level in master is right below max where it always is. The lever being solid and all the way out is weird. It's like the system is pressurized. Hoping flushing the system will cure it, but yeah. Thanks.


* Last updated by: alg8er on 5/26/2021 @ 7:20 PM *



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Grn14


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Tight front brake
05/26/21 8:06 PM

The calipers will alway close up when the discs are removed.That's normal.I use a large flatip screwdriver to open those back up(after installing new pads).It kinda sounds like maybe the piston bores are dirty.Maybe re-examine the pistons with the wheel off again and see if they're binding in there from not being used.I've sprayed brake cleaner in mine,the whole caliper in there and pushed the pistons in and let them come out on their own before.Push them all the way in.(without brake pads installed).No way should fluid level be different if you didn't do anything different.

". Hoping flushing the system will cure it, but yeah. Thanks."...unless the master has deteriorated over the winter and allowed some small rubber chips to get lodged in the master.Look in that reservoir.On the bottom for sediment.If the pistons are all the way out,the level should be a bit lower.Is it?
The master return hole MAY be blocked.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/26/2021 @ 8:13 PM *

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alg8er


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Posts: 1217

RE: Tight front brake
05/27/21 7:45 PM

Level is slightly lower, i think. Hard to tell. Almost at max line. No sediment in reservoir. Prying apart the pads was near impossible. When i finally got them spread enough, and mounted calipers, i spun the wheel and tested brake and spun again freely. After remounting rear wheel i rolled the bike out and tested both brakes again. Bike rolled fine. This was 2 months ago. If fluid isn't returning to allow pistons to return, why would brake lever be solid with zero play? I would think lever would be slack. Also if piston was stuck out i would expect lever to be slack. I didn't change anything but tires.



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Hub


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RE&#x3a&#x3b; Tight front brake
05/27/21 8:38 PM

At the brake master, open the bleed nipple and push the bike:
a. Caliper is no longer in pressure, bike is easy to roll.
b. With nipple still loose, pull lever in... If the lever does not move, it's a stuck master piston.
c. Calipers are still stuck with no pressure at the line w/nipple still open, then it's s stuck caliper with the lever now moving with the open nipple.

See the combo moves with a nipple release no matter at the master or at the caliper?

In parentheses, the theory goes like this: The quad ring has 4 flat sides. Statically, the quad ring looks like this (I I), meaning it's squared without pressure in its groove. Apply pressure, the piston moves against the pad, pad against the disc and the quad is now (/ /) pushed out of the groove kind of. Release the lever, the quad has memory and moves back to square (I I) again. This pulls the piston back, away from the pad, then no longer against the disc is the pad.

Water is heavier than oil so the bubbles made by heat; what is in the bubble is oxygen, right? So this water finds the lowest point at the caliper and sits under the quad ring where the groove is. The water turns to crystal kind of growth between the quad and groove. This forces the quad to squeeze the piston is one, and secondly, the quad no longer can be square in its groove but locks the piston from moving back, via help of the quad moving back to static memory, remember.

However, with a locked master lever, that master's piston should act like it's stuck and locked down the throat of the bore some. This would cause the lever to be very sloppy by the master's piston being that far forward in the bore. Kind of makes me think it's a stuck master not returning, to a stuck master's piston at the start point... being, you did not mention how the lever is sloppy before it hits the piston to move it down the bore hole...
or did you? [edit on the reread]
Say if you break the nipple loose at the caliper, this tests the lines down to the caliper. No balloon between line to stop flow from returning. Break at the master and does not move the piston, then it's the master.


* Last updated by: Hub on 5/27/2021 @ 8:43 PM *



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lytnin


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Location: St. Louis MO

Joined: 02/08/09

Posts: 981

RE: Tight front brake
05/27/21 8:53 PM

Mine is a 2008 with factory levers that every 2 weeks I had to open the bleeder at the master cylinder and closr it to let the extra pressure out because the brake lever was almost rock solid. I had to rebuild the MC and no problem since then.



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alg8er


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Joined: 02/10/09

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RE: Tight front brake
05/29/21 12:15 AM

Thanks for the help everyone! New weekend plans.



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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/09/21 6:59 PM

Finally have an update after health problems and endless rain. Popped master bleeder, lever released and on lift front wheel spun. Squeezed and released brake 40 times perfect function. Rolled up and down driveway a few times, still good. Tried to drive around the block and brake started dragging about halfway. Almost didn't make it back. Front brake locked again.
Fully bled system top to bottom replacing all fluid. Front wheel spins free again. Same procedure, test brake over and over, up and down driveway, all good. Drove about 50 feet and felt slight drag. Got it home and brake locked solid.
Bike sat about 2 weeks and now wheel spins free again. Brake and lever works normal again.
Next I'll pull a caliper and try grn's suggestion. Inspection and cleaning, but baffled why it binds slowly, and only when driving.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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Hub


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RE: Tight front brake
08/09/21 7:41 PM

I think you might want to pull the quad rings out, clean the grooves. Here's the quickie theory:
Water is heavier than water. It finds itself under the groove of the quad ring. It crystallizes and grows. When it grows under the groove it locks the piston.

So statically, the quad sits square in a groove and the ring is upright like this ( I I ). When you squeeze the lever, it pushes the piston, the quad moves in said direction ( / / ), then returns upright as it pulls the piston back returning to static upright = No drag.

What seems like heat is one factor, then the crystallizing of the locking there of. So an L kind of scribe end so you can go deep in the groove and scrape the white crust away. Brake or contact cleaner will dry and evaporate to show you the white powder still remaining. Get all of it, and try not to scratch grooves in the cutout. No sandpaper to the piston bores, but paper towels is the only abrasive on that mirror finish.

Probably new quad rings across the board, unless you want to go thru the process twice and reuse the old ones to see if that did it. Because cold and hand spun, the master's return hole is open or that too would lock the wheels, but freewheeling cold and grab a handful, no problem at the master.



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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/11/21 1:54 AM

Not doing it twice! New lines and new rings was kinda the plan, but rings are $7 each x 16 and 2 weeks out, so i figured inspect before ordering. Maybe get by with one caliper. Now I'm thinking just do all, and new pads too. Just baffling and frustrating that everything was fine before i pulled the wheel.



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Hub


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RE: Tight front brake
08/11/21 9:56 AM

Ah, mentioning just removing the wheel started the problem. My setup goes like this. After lubing the steering bearings, then on assembly, I lockdown one fork, then float the other fork while I spin the axle; finding the best static spin. You can tell when you have it. Torque it all down, recheck, you're done with wheel centering.

Next are the calipers. I have just the fork triples tight, not the axle yet. I want the right leg to float on the axle and center itself statically. So with calipers also floating with hardly the caliper bolts tight, I spin the wheel and hit the brakes. Do this a few times and I figure the leg is going to find center and now torque to 92ft, torque the pinch bolts to 12-15ft. That's the axle all locked down.

The calipers are last and these too find their own float/centering. So hand tight are the caliper bolts, this will let the caliper move. Spin the wheel and hit the brakes. We sort of found center. Hand tighten a little more, meaning, last spin you hold the brakes on. Once the hand tight finds the float, let go of the brake and torque to 25ft.

Spin the wheel and it should spin a lot longer.



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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/11/21 4:51 PM

Close. I didn't mess with the steering bearing or forks. After inserting lubed axle, wheel spun free. Then the problems started trying to seperate the pads. Everything was smooth when reassembled and torqued. Ive left calipers on cars hang for months and never had them close tight. I've pulled the front wheel off other bikes over a dozen times without any problems. I really just need more space to work. Im not as skinny and flexible anymore.



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Rook


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RE: Tight front brake
08/12/21 1:51 PM

Did you inspect the lever? Is it possible the push pin that goes into the MC isn't seated in the lever properly? That could cause the pin to be pressed into the MC a little bit all the time. Then the fluid heats up and expands a bit and you have the brakes locked.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

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RE: Tight front brake
08/12/21 11:54 PM

These 'kawasaki' calipers all close up when not being stopped by the pads.Normal.I use a long handled large flattip screwdriver and just work it between the pads tip and tip till the pads open up.Right after that,I fit em to the discs.Never a problem.If you reinstall right away,they'll stay open for a few minutes enough to slide em in there on that disc.Slave piston will do the same thing.Normal.
Hold the caliper in yer hand and work the driver in there.Tnen install on disc.(naturally the wheel has to be in there).


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/12/2021 @ 11:57 PM *

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Rook


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RE: Tight front brake
08/13/21 2:01 AM

Sounds like he got the wheel back on. The problem is the brakes are locking while he rides the bike.

Are you sure the brake fluid level is correct?



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Hub


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RE: Tight front brake
08/13/21 6:01 PM

A trick is to pull the caliper bolts and pull the caliper back. If it drags on the disc we got a problem. If we can cock the caliper both ways and push the pads in, not that bad of a problem. But if you really have to man handle the cocking, it's going to be the quad rings.

Next trick is to go take a ride and lock them up. Then break the banjo bolt loose at the caliper, It should free up. That says master. Stays locked, that says quad rings.



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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/14/21 1:54 AM

Rook, I didn't find anything wrong at lever, seems to function normally. The pads start dragging after about a block, even after squeezing the lever 20-30 times in garage and driveway. After they started dragging i didn't touch the brake lever but they keep getting tighter as im driving.

Grn, i got the wheel back on, but trying to pry the pads apart was almost impossible. I couldn't get a big screwdriver between them. Had to get a tiny jewlers screwdriver and tap it in, then a larger screwdriver, then a larger, and finally 2 pieces of flat metal and twist and pry. I was about to crack the bleeder. Thought i was going to break a pad, but finally got them apart with constant pressure. I did notice a small chip missing from the corner of one pad before i started prying. Wondering if the last shop i had install tires had the same problem.

Hub, I'll try that next. Either that or loosen axle and calipers, make sure everything is smooth and tighten again. Just in case something shifted while i was torquing things down.

Thanks so much guys. Really appreciate the help.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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david5525


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Location: Kirkland WA PNW

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RE: Tight front brake
08/16/21 9:43 AM

Your description of having to pry the pads apart and the difficulty in doing it kind of points back to what Rook was trying to point to. If the brake lever or master cylinder is in any way engaged, it blocks the return of fluid from the caliper meaning brakes are being applied. Something in the master is pushing the piston into the brake actuation position, either the pin that Rook alluded to or something in that part of the system sticking and causing pressure to build and lock the brakes. Lever released, fluid should flow back to master easily.
Keep looking, you will find it.

Dave

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

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RE: Tight front brake
08/16/21 10:00 AM

When ya got em apart,how long did it take for em to close back up?And yes,constant pressure opening those pads is fine.At least that's how I've had to do it on all my Kawasakis.Even the SXSE.
Have you taken a look in the reservoir?ANY black dusty particles or small pieces of rubber in there?It could be a VERY MINIMAL amount at the bottom showing signs of disintegration of rubber parts in the master.I had that happen WAY back.Started blocking the return function.

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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/17/21 4:45 PM

David, I hope so!

Grn, reservoir was clear, nothing on bottom. I flushed the system with new fluid and I didn't see a single spec in the old fluid. I used a clear glass bottle so i could see anything.
After reaasembly the wheel spun free on the stand, and after hitting the brake 5 or 6 times it spun free when i released lever, Good feel in the lever. Took it off stand and waited to ride. A couple months later it was locked solid. That's when i flushed.
Really confusing. 1st time brake locked from sitting. 2nd time brake was locked after trying to ride, and released from sitting. Im thinking multiple problems. Something was plugged and flush cleaned it out, AND pistons/rings are messed up. Also going to triple check lever/master.



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Rook


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RE: Tight front brake
08/18/21 7:55 PM



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Rook


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RE: Tight front brake
08/18/21 7:59 PM

At some point I'd be thinking, "New brakes." You can't miss with performance of one of the better Brembo calipers. I'd check into ISR calipers and MC. They work well and they are very light weight. They also look really cool.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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alg8er


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RE: Tight front brake
08/20/21 9:47 AM

Rook, I thought about it, but not in the budget this year.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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Rook


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RE: Tight front brake
08/21/21 11:32 PM

Me neither but being that both my MCs are damaged from the crash, I will be going to IRCs some time soon. Might as well go with those awesome calipers while I'm at it.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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