I tried to build from a zero map with the autotune. After 30 something trim adjustments I still was not happy with the way my bike was running and there were lots of cops posted up along my "tuning route". I was about one more "tuning session" away from a trip to the station.

Starting with a good map and small (1-3%) trim adjustments, my bike felt spot on after just a few trim adjustments.

Any adjustments greater than 5% at a time would cause flat spots in the mapping.

I wasn't happy with any of the mapping I did with the preloaded afr table from DJ. I adjusted the afr to 13 in the low rpms, 13.2 in cruising range, and 12.8 in the at high rpms.

Never got around to mapping for each individual gear.

Hope this helps a little.

Thanks, Dogo. That helps a lot for those of us who have not used Autotune at all.

Great to hear from you. We miss ya around here.

Has anyone ever contacted the companies that make these wideband sensors and asked them what they think of using this type of equipment in a high resonance exhaust system, with moderate valve overlap cams on a motorcycle?

Don't bother asking the dyno manufacturer, or your tuner....ask the sensor manufacturer.

Ask them about the effects of resonance, dilution, and exhaust temps at varying throttle positions and see what they tell you.

I also would ask them about recommended sensor location... When you get their response, you will think twice about who has what equipment and the accuracy of the exhaust samples taken.

Ivan :)

* Last updated by: Ivan on 10/24/2009 @ 11:14 AM *

Actually have just recently done that Ivan, and will let you know if Bosche or any of them answer. :)

Ivan, Glad to see you finally made it here

* Last updated by: Romans on 10/24/2009 @ 1:12 PM *

I did email Bosche and a few Japanese manufacturers regarding Ivan's questions, not sure how long or even if they will answer.

But I decided to ask a guy I know at Brocks who has always told me the truth and does a lot of really good tuning on their race bikes.

His reply is basically the Dynojet PC5 / Autotune / wideband O2 sensor is not fast enough to be produce a realtime closed loop. It is valuable if you do not have access to tuned maps, as a reference, assuming you know what you are loooking at in the Autotune log. Brocks thinks a map produced first on the dyno and then modified after use on a race track are in general a better solution.

I can see the point, if Autotune isn't going to do what the "big" systems do for cars (and are commonplace in high performance engine modifications these days) and you have to understand a lot more than A/F ratios to make good use of it, why spend the money to get Autotune?

In regards to the location of the O2 sensor, Brocks puts it back by the muffler on the CT series exhausts. On the CT-DUAL it sounds like you have a choice of either side.

I guess when I get around to it, I won't consider Autotune, because I don't want to mess with it.

I agree with ROOK on this-experiences from third parties can be helpful.It may be something as simple as "seeing it" a slightly different way.Even talking about what DIDN'T work can tell someone a lot about something.

^^Speaking of which, i read on another forum an interesting point concerning self tuners vs dyno tune. You need to run the bike at illegal speeds to log data for the complete spectrum of performance. That's a lot easier done on a dyno.

I have contacted two well known makers of high performance closed-loop (realtime) ECU systems for race cars and motorcycles. One has already responded with a request for make/model/year/configuration since I didn't specify ZX14 to start with.

Whatever information I get I'll post. Don't expect them to be cheap, though. The one on my ZX11 back in 91 cost well over $5,000.

I once paid the "ask a mechanic" $15 to answer a question for me. I thought that was a burn! But I don't think I'd pay $5000 for an answer. But if yuou're going to share it with us, privat, go for it!

Oh wait...I get it.

* Last updated by: Sharkey on 10/26/2009 @ 3:37 PM *

I still am only interested in the Wideband sensor manufacturer's comments.... not really interested in a whole EFI system manufacturer's comments as it is a part of their system (just like dyno a manufacturer).

Wideband sensors work well in cars with catalytic converters when the sensor is located upstream from the cat (due to more even temps and no resonance) and also with turbo applications (no resonance due to the impeller).

High resonance exhaust systems will make the readings bounce all over the place from the different effects of fresh air entering the exhaust from the back, differences in exhaust temps at part throttle vs. full throttle are just a few of the things that affect the accuracy of it's readings. The best sensor location is very close to the exhaust port, but this is not feasable for dyno shops. There is not much difference in the readings when the sensor is put into the muffler or in the collector.... the gas temps and resonance effects are still present in those locations.
This can easily be seen by looking at the maps that are made with these sensors..... the values will bounce all over the place. (the factory programming isn't that far off from a 500 rpm change or a 20% change in throttle position (looking at one cell to the next in the map). Going to the same dyno on 3 different days will give 3 different maps with this type of exhaust sampling equipment.

Load conditions are also an important factor when trying to tune..... too much load will give wrong readings too..... they need to be similar to what the bike sees on the road.... steady state tests are useless because the engine never sees that condition and tuning in this condition will get the bike too lean for max power during heavy acceleration.

Sensor temps are also important because when the bike gets hotter than it would on the road, all the sensors readings will be different than what the bike normally sees.... adjusting fuel and timing under these conditions will result in a less than optimal result to say the least.

A real EGA is still the most accurate way to tune a bike with a pipe with no cat..... it is just way more time consuming because the analyzer's readings are slightly behind where the engine is at (rpms) so it takes more time to get things matched up and the readings fairly consistent. Dyno shops want instant readings and don't want to spend a couple of days making adjustments for each bike.

Ivan

just looking at the posts regarding the jerk on the throttle, different bike I know but my old zx12r an 02 model used to have just the same jerk when trying to roll on throttle, whilst being carefull not to upset the balance of the bike whilst cornering it really annoyed me.
I took my bike to dynojet UK with this in mind. much work was done correcting amounts of fuel at lower rpm and throttle openings and this virtually eradicated all jerkiness of the rolling on, made it much smoother and obviously made for a much nicer relaxed ride even when tramping on!!!!!!!
Not sure if the 14 would respond in the same way but its worth a try.......
Regards
Grinner

just looking at the posts regarding the jerk on the throttle,

There's an old joke about a tourist stopping to ask an old hick for directions. The Hick says, "Well first you go down to the right...no, wait, you go to the left...uhhh, maybe if you started straight....Hell, you know, I don't think you can get there from here!"
Ivan, that sounds like that's what you're saying. LOL

Anyone ever tried alternate sensor location? Maybe the bottom line is that without accurate input no tuning system can work well. Or another way to look at it is that Auto Tune for motorcycles is in it's infancy. We still rely on knowledgable people to interpret feedback info and make adjustments based on experience gained from mostly trial and error experience.
I'm just thinking about my frist computer I got in 1984 or so. I thought it was the ULTIMATE!

sharkey

Maybe the bottom line is that without accurate input no tuning system can work well

You said it best :)

ivan

Ivan wrote :

Dyno shops want instant readings and don't want to spend a couple of days making adjustments for each bike.

To be fair, most dyno shops ... don't want to spend a couple days making adjustments.

Several do, and members have found the maps they provide with purchases are at least the equal of any other available alternative.

When it gets right down to it, the only thing that matters for 99% of us is, how does it run on the street and in the twisties ?

If someone locally gets a high-end gas analyzer, maybe mine could get better than it is. Or if Brocks or Fuel Moto want to take it to the track for a few days and improve the tune. Until then, the theories don't help or matter to me. :)

To be fair, most dyno shops ... don't want to spend a couple days making adjustments.

Several do, and members have found the maps they provide with purchases are at least the equal of any other available alternative.

When it gets right down to it, the only thing that matters for 99% of us is, how does it run on the street and in the twisties ?

If someone locally gets a high-end gas analyzer, maybe mine could get better than it is.

I agree !!

Ivan

So...are YOU the famous "IVAN the Terrible" I've been "hearing about"?Sounds to me like you know what you're talking about.

So...are YOU the famous "IVAN the Terrible" I've been "hearing about"?Sounds to me like you know what you're talking about.

He is. Trust him. Ivan won't let you down. Ask me How I know. I'm not a flag waver 4 any one. But...Ivan walks the talk. I ride the proof.Cheers.