Hello everybody, i recently had my stock cams degreed and head work with valve job fifteen thousand milled off the head im not no mechanic so I figure I would ask some of you guys if these numbers make sense and exactly what gains will i get bottom or top end, 108 106 are the numbers he told me.

Sweet. 13.5 to 1 Sound about bang on?

Thanks for your response, I forgot he also removed the crankshaft balancers. I went on a ride yesterday, kept it under 4,500 rpms small vibration nothing that i can,t live with.

108/106 is a bit much i think.

I'll have to check, but i'm pretty sure i ran a nearly identical setup (ran a thin gasket instead of milling the head) and i believe i ran 105/106

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Ok so if its a bit much what would it hurt in the engine,or will the bike run slower or what. Sorry if im asking alot of questions but I need to learn this stuff, thanks for all you guys help.

stock cams degreed

How much did all this cost?

head work with valve job

Valve Job? I hope he is well equipped because these are tiny valves with an even tinier 45° ring. So, this should have 1 or 2% leak down and did you have that checked before they threw the plugs in?

fifteen thousand milled off the head

That drops the head down, loosens the cam chain and throws off the cam timing.

im not no mechanic

And I am no tuner, but I can observe what is being done.

if these numbers make sense and exactly what gains will i get bottom or top end

Cam degree is an art. There is no exact number you aim for. Just like dynojet says there is no exact A/Fratio to aim for.

108 106 are the numbers he told me

And because I am no tuner, I'll show you the basics as I see these numbers. If we take a pie cuts, throw numbers at it like at 6 to 12 0'clock, we start from 0 and work our way around the clock to 12 or 180° and then from 12, we say 180 down to 0 is 6 0'clock. If we sit on the bike, place the clock on the right side crank, we have both clockwise and crank rotation to view as this theory goes.

If I open the intake at 108 I've opened the valve sooner. Look at it like that. On the exhaust side, the exhaust valve opens at 106 degrees. If you look at the concept like this, you can see the intake is going to open sooner [than at 108] rather than later, like if at 106.

108 sets the air to move sooner and has a little momentum. 106 is the exhaust stroke and at 106, this side of the 360° pie is going to open the exhaust sooner. This shortens the power stroke, which still [was] making leverage power, for as long as possible. But you open the valve sooner, cut the power down, you lost top end, but feel the grunt on the bottom end. Just think if you were switched to 106-108. < Then top end would be these type of numbers to run and this would ruin any bottom end grunt.

With the compression gain of the head, the valve being closer to the piston, the shaved part disrupting the flow part of stock cam opening and closings, the added friction [higher compression] that may or may not heat the water jackets more from a little mod, but little things do a lot. So, if you sense no extra heat, the buzz of no balancers, wait till you hit 5,000 rpm. It should stop buzzing altogether IF you had the balancers. If it buzzes more, then you might want to get those balancer parts back from the original owner.

Any of this make sense as to what has been done to the bike?

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/4/2010 @ 9:21 PM *

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Thanks Hub, that cleared alot of things up for me. What happen is I spun #1 rod bearing which messed up my crank and of course rod. So I also bought a new crank, piston rod, and bearings also oil pump,new cam chain,and APE valve springs and retainers and everything mentioned early milling of head porting, valve job, cams degree and sprockets. (Total cost 3,000) So if I'm understanding you correctly with this set up I'm going to lose top end but gain bottom end. I was kind of hoping it would be the opposite, more top and less bottom its already hard to maintain out the hole. I wonder how much of a horse power gain if any? I know you only really find out with a dyno but I hoping for 5 to 10 hp gain, what do you think.

So if I'm understanding you correctly with this set up I'm going to lose top end but gain bottom end.

Again, we are running into the art of the tune. You are going to throw fuel at one bike, download that map and think it works for your bike is just call it, "close." Same goes for the high speed setup. Maybe the bike likes 108/106 with the combo and she runs so-so down low. I just do not know without the plumber cleavage taking a whack at it. Butt, you can tell the difference from the way the bike ran ~ Pre #1 rod, right? Are you still installing the engine in the frame still? Sounds like we are without that question yet, or did I assume the bike is together and you are not impressed with the running?

I was kind of hoping it would be the opposite, more top and less bottom its already hard to maintain out the hole.

I'll trade you bikes then. I'm starting to get excited. I doubt you'll get away from that problem????

I wonder how much of a horse power gain if any? I know you only really find out with a dyno but I hoping for 5 to 10 hp gain, what do you think.

I don't know without that leak down. Maybe the shave could have one valve run lower at one bank, the other far bank has a higher rise with less compression as the [other] far one< Kind of variable. The valve cuts are another variable. How deep in the pocket is the one valve laying now after the cut? Are the valves as close as the factory at that 45° cut? With stock cams and just a bump more compression, I think 10hp is too much with nothing done to it than your list. You have to keep moving the cam timing to gain the best top end possible is how I would attack it.

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Once again hub I appreciate your input, yes the engine is in the same frame, and it feels stronger, but I haven't really put it to the test yet, I'm trying to put 3 to 5 hundred miles on it before i nail it. I have about 200 miles on it so far and I still haven't been over 4,500 rpm yet. I'm 6'3 225 suited with 1.58 60ft i know i need to work on that, with a 17front and 43 back sprocket. Best Time so far 9.52 at 144mph. Hope to run some 9.40s now.

Your welcome for the output, FM86. That is a good sign, the bike feels faster with little input. Like I said, I leave the cam timing to the pros. Looking back, it was amazing to watch my tuner change the cam timing when we were trying for top end mph at some drag strip. We had the place all to ourselves. I used to roll through the starts to get a running jump for the most top speed. We were setting the bike up for Daytona. He asked why I didn't start at the line each time he changed the cam timing? I said I wanted to save the clutch for the race... I just did not want to smoke a clutch and clean the thing up like spotless is pull it all down; rather than eat something at the line. Anyway, it was fast and I blew a rod in practice on the banking. Such is racing.

Can you see how the constant cam timing changes, were to gain the most top end? That was what he was chasing, knowing where we were going. He is one of the masters and I should have looked over his shoulder for tricks. But there are no tricks in racing. Just that common sense stuff like dynojet tells you it is not some set ratio, as is no a set cam timing. Especially when each time, we kept getting higher and higher mph numbers, until he found the best cam degree between both cams. Sound easy now, with the injection squirt and the cam degree work? Getting down with the 60ft is feed the snowflake what it wants, not some $50 map or one off the net. That map tune was for that bike being that snowflake with whatever pipe as; no pipe makes the same HP numbers. No head flows the same out of the same casting.

Didn't you hear #1 whistle before it blew? Squealing all that dry metal about to weld itself together and bust through the case? Lets say, I know the feeling. Good luck this season, fordm.

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Thanks Hub!

Hello Hub,

I finally have 350 miles on my bike now, I took it up to about 5500 rpm and the buzz got worst, I don't know if this is as bad as it's going to get,or at some point in the upper rpms it with smooth out. I sure hope so because I like the response of the bike without them. If not I'll wait til I get some cash up and Have them put back. I might as well put cams in it sense I'll have to remove the engine again. I wish this Idiot hadn't remove them.

Interesting. Well, fm86, your welcome, I think? Too bad we didn't have this conversation when the engine was down. Without starting the inertia up initially, I bet that thing spins as fast as a bmwRR. Butt, seat of the pants says we buy two bikes. One specific for each job.

The reason the 14 is the way it is. The compromise is to have smooth power, but not real out and out power. Sure, they made plenty of power to push that heavy bike and moving parts, but to remove the engineering as most do and then find out it is more for a specific purpose and not the overall package the factory offers, you are now screwed!

Racing rpm's may show the bike smooth out. I just know, I start to rev near 5K rpm, this thing smooths out even more! But, I can imagine the response difference being slight enough to cause a facial grin. Like you said, you can live with it or run one season with it, pull it down for the winter, check things out as you reinstall the balancers.

The only other out was to balance the parts to the crank throws, meaning, you chase about 85% of the balance point or close enough say is the average [aim] measurement to that percentage. Like, to visualize it, we weigh the parts off the crank throws. Machine 4 lugs that weigh the same for each, [piston-rings-pin-clips-rod-bolts-rods-bearing inserts-oil weight] > figured-in. Now you install the lugs. Start at the lowest point at 6 0'clock, turn it 12 0'clock position, then drill holes in the crank till the position is balanced no matter where you place the crank, she does not move. Same deal [almost] as balancing a wheel. That should have been your compromise, we discuss one or the other, meaning, keep the counter-weights in, or lug-up. That is what he should have done or told you > WOT would happen! Now make the decision; you using the bike more for street miles than race miles.

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Hello Hub,

That seem to be the same response I get from everybody that it should smooth out in the higher RPM's. Anyway I did bump it once and it went up to 8000 to 9000 rpms before I could blink my eye.(I did smile) I can't wait to really get down on it.

hey slowninja,what did u come up with on your degreed cams?you said you think it's 105 ,106.stock is 106,106.i was wondering if one degree would have a great effect on horsepower?about 2 put bike back 2gether and went with your guestermation at 105,106 setup.hopefully,this is on the money,so get back at me and tell me what u think?