I only plan to spray for fun.

Fun is a good word. That's why were all in this.

My bike has a mps spyder dry kit. It has 40hp jets in it. I have a pcv. I don't have any kind of autotune capability yet.

IMO you don't really need Auto Tune. You can do manual Edits. This is of course if you know your AFR. Very Important.

What would your suggestion be as far as pulling timing? Would a flash benefit me? Thanks for your help!

Now this is a tough one as it covers a wide area with many variables. ,,,,,, If it were my bike. I would pull 2.5 if I was spraying 40. Now this is based on the Gen1. 80-100 shot I would run 28 degrees. Now I base this on what My bikes have already done. Pulling timing cost horse power while normal street riding. Pull 1 degree for you you may gain hp. 2 degrees you may start to lose 1 or 2hp. When I pulled 4.5 I lost almost 10 hp. Keep in mind I was already making 280 so brought me down to 270hp. All relative.

The above being said you can understand were I'm going. There is a horse power cost to play here. Losing two horse power you will never notice. Dyno Talk.

So whats best,,, well if it's only once and awhile I would say spray your 40 shot but be sure to use a good quality fuel (c-16). You may have heard people say "Race Fuel Is Cheating" but in fact this the best motor insurance you will ever do. Pour it and worry less. But it's NOT CHEAP. Cost will add up fast.

The flash has many benefits and can be custom built for your needs. So you have two approaches. Make the timing changes based on using pump fuel or buy race Fuel.

These are broad statements but should give you lots to think about.

So when you pull timing is it all across the rpm range or building a timing map that only pulls it in the upper revs? In your opinion is pulling timing going to allow me to spray a bigger shot safely on an otherwise fully stock engine? So even without autotune I need some way to data log my o2 readings across the range. Then if it's good on the map I have only add fuel in the 100% throttle range? I have the map that came in my bike and also have all of brocks maps. Looking at them on the computer the brocks is a little leaner up top than what my bike came with but not much.

D, the timing curve Romans described to me for NA was across the whole rpm range. I would assume that would apply the same for a NOS timing map but as you said, something more drastic probably has to happen for the range where nitrous is used. 6,000 rpm and up. I'd get the map switch and flip to the NOS mapping only when I needed it.

If you want to log AFR, you will have to get an o2 bung. I have a nice AFR gauge here with bosch sensor and integrated data log module. Cost me about $90. To log data through the PC5, you will need both Autotune and the POD 300. ~$600

I'm sure you're correct about only needing to make fuel adjustments to the 100% column. That's all you use for NOS but you might want to tune for NA as well. Doing manual edits, even to just the 100% column is going to be a slow way to tune with no experience.

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Yea that's kind of what I was thinking. With no experience tuning of any kind I think I'd feel better with autotune and the pod 300. What do you use to pull timing? The pcv is strictly fuel correct? I thought possibly if I had a way to data log I could send the log to a tuner and him tell me what fuel trims to do. As I said. I do t know how that works. Possibly would take lots of back and forth that could be done on my own. I'm still a long ways from doing anything. Just trying to learn all I can before making any purchases.

With no experience tuning of any kind I think I'd feel better with autotune and the pod 300

If you only wanted to tune the 100% column from 6000 rpm and up, that's still about 20 cells. NOT easy to reference between the trims table and the fuel table. Unfortunately, you can't overlay two tables or even have both on the screen at the same time. So you just accept all trims and let AT do the math. Then go do another run and repeat the process until your not getting any trims.

With no experience, you could make small adjustments safely checking AFR right after. Manually adding or subtracting a few units from your fuel table is no big deal. It's not dangerous if you add or subtract a bit too much. Autotune even does this and that is why you must do several runs--to allow AT to correct itself. The deal is that AT is a lot faster than you are and it has no choices to make. It applies the trims to the fuel table with 100% accuracy. Autotune eliminates the frustration of human error.

If you go with a datalogger, you will have to view the log file which is a list of time and AFR. Then change tabs to compare that to the fuel table which is a matrix of TP and rpm. Confused already? Think having two laptops on the bike now starts to make sense? Before we had Autotune, I'm sure that was the only way to self tune. You could do it too but it would be a slow cumbersome process. Then again, you only have those 20-some odd cells you're worried about. My opinion is that datalogging and manual adjustments will be much, MUCH more meaningful after you understand how Autotune does it. That's the stage I'm at right now. Even a pro tuner would let his equipment do all it is capable of before making manual edits.

If you have Autotune and a laptop, you don't need the POD for anything except for datalogging. ....and if you just let AT do the tuning, datalogging is probably not essential right away. Datalogging is valuable for finding spots in the map that AT has not fixed yet--and you can see exactly how much these spots need to be fixed. You restrict your AT by selecting min/max % trims for safety but that will also restrict AT from fixing some cells that are way off. you might have some bad spots that don't get worked out until you have done many runs. ...so data logging is good for positively identifying these areas instead of just letting AT whittle away at them slowly. I see some lean spots way up high in rpm on my data logs. I would never see them on an AFR gauge. They are probably only a few tenths of a second but I believe they should be fixed before going to nitrous.

Just trying to learn all I can before making any purchases.

that's the way to go. learn first, buy second and avoid the expense of upgrading to what you should have bought in the first place. As long as you have people willing to run their yappers, you can save a lot of $$.

I thought possibly if I had a way to data log I could send the log to a tuner and him tell me what fuel trims to do.

That would be what a tuner would do after dyno tuning. Check the dyno tune against the real world. If it was a tuner who was very familiar with the stock mapping of the 14 and the map you are currently running, no doubt he could nail it down pretty close after a few datalogs were viewed and manual adjustments made. Probably a lot cheaper to just let him tune it but if the map you have now is good, your idea could work. If you're going to go that rout, you might as well try it yourself first. You'd just be adding a few units of fuel at a time and then checking AFR again. Basically doing what AT does albeit a lot slower.

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...and if it's just those 20 cells in the 100% column you care about, manual adjusting isn't such a bad idea even for a beginner. You will need to buy a data logger though. I would do a run without NOS to see how rich it is (should be) and from there decide if it is safer to tune smaller jets first and work up to 40 shot. I think Romans said 40 shot was ok but we have not seen your AFR with the map you currently run yet.

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That was my thoughts as well. Data log to see where I currently stand. If my afr is good or close then could manually add to the upper rpm 100% column to tune for nos. I've read somewhere 15% more fuel would get close with a 40 shot.

I've read somewhere 15% more fuel would get close with a 40 shot.

If that is true, do not forget that you already have the stock fueling adjusted. So are we talking 15% of the stock fueling or the adjusted fueling?

Also, I am not so sure if the numbers you see in the fuel table are +/- percentages or +/- units of fuel. I believe they are units of fuel. The stock fuel table is expressed in units of fuel and theoretically, there is no max---if you put in bigger injectors and a higher pressure fuel pump you could double the flow you have stock--if that is what you need for some kind of crazy boost setup. Now the Trims table---that I believe is expressed in percentages. When you see a trim of -2, that is saying 2% less of the total units of fuel resulting from the stock fueling and the PC5 map.

Hypothetically speaking, the resulting fuel number of the stock fueling and the PC5 map could be 250 units for some cells and others might have 80 units. You see how 15% might be a very different value in terms of units of fuel for some cells than others. It would be convenient if all tables had a max of +/- 100. Then percentages would work for all the same way...but it's not that simple.

This is one topic I do not have clear info on. It's an idea in my head but it was explained to me by Dj and I can tell this for sure, arriving at a particular number of units of fuel is more complex than inputting a percentage. I never had to deal with it because I let Autotune do it's thing.

I still think you could manually edit if that is how you want to go but I would start off a little more on the conservative side. Don't throw a 15 in all your cells even if the AFR is PERFECT for NA. I'd probably Try to make the mapping rich for nitrous and cut back after you see how rich it is. Don't start off from the lean end of the spectrum. If 15% is about right, you will need to find out 15% of what for each cell. You might be able to use the trims table and put a 15 in each cell. IDK if you can do that if you don't have Autotune enabled. Tje trims normally come from Autotune but if manually input them and applied them to the PC5 map, it might work.

just some ideas. I've never tried this. Like I said, I just left it up to Autotune.

the safest thing would be to start tuning with smaller jets so that you can't go dangerously lean. That's what i plan to do.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/26/2017 @ 4:43 PM *

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Hmmmmm well that sounds like a lot more to think about... I'll do some more studying I guess. I thought all the numbers in the maps were percentage figures! That indeed makes things more complicated

I'd ask Dj to explain. I asked about it because i was noticing I was getting a trim of -2 and after I applied it, the map cell number it was applied to was one less, not two. This was not always the case. Dj told me you might see this with Autotune but it is not a discrepancy, it's just thr result of applying a percentage to number that is not 100. You know, 1% of 100 is 1. 1% of 150 is not 1. Probably will be my next call to Dj to clarify that but I haven't had need to do it yet.

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I am certainly no expert when it comes to dyno tuning and ECU flashes but decide to pull the trigger and get my Kawi flashed by Rick...I have 2014 with Two brothers slip-on , PCV and Dynojet quickshifter.
I met with Rick on a beautiful Saturday morning, got him to do his magic and on the way home I was smiling from ear to ear...! I got to say: WOW...what a difference! Smoother and crazy throttle response ,its like riding a different bike!
Now that I got my quick shifter dialed in almost 100% its really fun to ride! No doubt the best performance investment I could get! And on top of that ,Rick is a great guy to deal with ,answered all my questions and explained every single step of the process...!
Thanks a lot Rick!!

I was just thinking about that guy a half hour ago! This must be motorcycle telepathy. How lucky you are to be able to meet with him in person. Glad you're happy with your new tune!

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How lucky you are to be able to meet with him in person

You got that right! And he is only 45min drive away...( 20 min on the 14!)

Good deal man. I had the same setup on my 2012 zx14r when I got it in 2012. We had a couple of issues , but we got them fixed. My bike ran awesome with his flash. I ended up getting in an accident 2 years later and parted out some parts of my bike. I sold the ecu to a guy in Hawaii, rick re flashed it for him and he dragged raced his bike for a bit. Well guess what I recently got another 2013 zx14 and lo and behold same ecu came up for sale. So yeah its on its way back to me .. Can't wait to put it in and be rolling. Finishing piece I need on my new build. So yeah I have a lot of faith in what he does. He's also a great guy and always willing to help out.
Pick of new to me bike

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That's a real rocketship ready for launch and a sweet looking bike!

* Last updated by: cruderudy on 6/16/2017 @ 10:49 AM *

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Nice looking ride! White not available in Canada... :-(

,Rick is a great guy to deal with ,answered all my questions and explained every single step of the process...!
Thanks a lot Rick!!

No, Arek1200 Thank you ! The chance to meet a fellow ZX14 enthusiast won't be missed. I'm so happy you like it. I also hope showing every step of the flashing process didn't bore you too much. Sometimes I can get a little carried away Lol.

My bike ran awesome with his flash. I ended up getting in an accident 2 years later and parted out some parts of my bike. I sold the ecu to a guy in Hawaii, rick re flashed it for him and he dragged raced his bike for a bit. Well guess what I recently got another 2013 zx14 and lo and behold same ecu came up for sale. So yeah its on its way back to me .. Can't wait to put it in and be rolling. Finishing piece I need on my new build. So yeah I have a lot of faith in what he does.

Hey Blkcasper, good to see you are still working with the 14's. She looks sharp. I would love to own a white 14. Luv it. congrats.

Rook how's the spray project going ?

It has progressed not at all. I'm sure it will be a snap compared to the oil gauges project. Main problem with that is that the oil switch hole is so small, you can't find any standard fittings that will go in it. I worked down the fitting I'm using with an adjustable die (what thread pitch was the problem to solve on that one) and it will be going in tomorrow. Hopefully all ports seal or I'm riding it with a leak until I can figure out what went wrong.

All that needs to be done on the nitrous is to hand carve bottle brackets. Many hours but I'm a lot more comfortable with that sort of thing. Maybe I'll just rig the brackets I have and save the carving for a winter project.

* Last updated by: Rook on 6/19/2017 @ 10:13 AM *

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Yeah I'm can't leave these zx14s alone, love them. Still have my zx10 and the blk zx14r also. Guess I bee. Luckier than I thought the last few years. The 3 girls together.

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Have you made a Hellcat faster than a 14R yet?

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Romans how you doing on the surge issue? I remember you telling me you were going to look at a solution this summer.

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Have you made a Hellcat faster than a 14R yet?

No, But "Not" giving up. My brother and I are continuously raising the bar. (NOS Soon) Currently I'm at 836 hp and he is at at 850hp measured At the wheels. So roughly just under a thousand crank. The power this motor lays down is truly motorcycle fast. But on street pavement we can't hook. Even with street slicks the car is one scary scary scary ride.

To date I've only raced one bike when my car was stock.(GSXR1000)That Race was more of a Draw At 199 mph where I let up. My wife was screaming with feet on the dash,,,, she was not a happy camper. I didn't want to race but this clown with her in the car but this guy wouldn't let it go. So I had to, surely you understand. Seemed so weird me being in a cage and some one else on the Bike. World was not wright. See pics.

LOL that was me on my pre-Fathers Day ride! LOL I was all geared up and on the busa and the guy with wife in the big fat tired vette in front of me wouldn't budge! LOL I did put on a show for them though. LOL Wife spun her head in terror when I shifted to second and screamed up on them! They probably thought I was an ass but it was fun.

Keep at it on those Hellcats! All that power is exciting. You might never beat a bike at the start but I have no doubt you probably could fly past them on the big end right now. Seen it done with an old Supra. That is the car I dream to own someday unless I find something better by the time I can afford a hobby car.

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