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Thread: Dead head

Created on: 01/06/20 04:27 PM

Replies: 50

rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

Dead head
01/06/20 4:27 PM

Pictures are from my ‘06 that I bought new in ‘07. It has 35K on the odometer. I was going to work cruising at about 6000 rpm when suddenly power decreases and it begins making a loud tapping noise. I pull to the shoulder and it dies once I let off the gas. I was able to start it and keep it going as long as I gave it throttle. I kept the rpm’s under 4000 and was able to limp the 5 miles back home. This happened about a year ago and the bike has been sitting since. I finally started working on it last week.
I’ve never raced the bike and have only got near redline a handful of times. Pretty much all I do is commute on my bikes.

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/06/20 4:29 PM


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yannih


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Location:

Queenstown New Zealand

Joined: 11/08/12

Posts: 1659

RE: Dead head
01/06/20 4:50 PM

Very sorry to read this.
Unfortunately I know exactly how you feel (see below tow links).
All the best with the way forward...


It Will Never happen to me

2006-->2009 Engine swap



2012 Metalic Spark Black Kawasaki ZX-14R.
Yoshimura carbon R-77 slip ons,Custom dyno ECU flash,Striker rearsets,Hyperpro RSC steering damper,HM Plus quickshifter,ASV C5 levers,Hel SS transparent red front/rear brake and clutch lines,Kawasaki/MRA vented spoiler screen,Carbon heel guards,R&G radiator guard,Powerbronze carbon rear hugger,ZX-10 front fender with fender extender,Yoshimura frame sliders,M-Factory rear stand stoppers,Escort Redline radar detector,Techspec tank grips and tank protector,Versys 1000 fender eliminator,Kaoko cruise control,Moto red oil cap,Oxford heated grips,Red magnetic oil drain plug,Red and black Bagster Spider rear seat bag (for touring only).

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/06/20 6:00 PM

Thanks for the links, Yannih. Glad you got yours sorted out. I'm swapping my motor too, but for a 1441 out of a wrecked 2017. I've found a few posts from people who did the same and if I want to use my existing harness/ECU, it looks like I'll need to get holes drilled for the cam and water temp sensors. I've already purchased the motor off ebay and it should arrive by the weekend. They also included the wiring harness/ECU but I haven't been able to find out if all the things my bike is lacking - ABS, traction control, different lcd display, etc. - will play nice with the new harness/ECU. I'd prefer to go with the Gen 2 harness but I can't find anyone else who's attempted it on a Gen 1.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/07/20 7:22 AM

Drill something into the OEM?

Let the cam sensor harness dangle. Water temps use different part numbers. Swap out the water temp sensors. Keep the OEM harness and ECU. You'll code with the later harness. ABS is used and the ECU will be pinned differently. Make it easy like yannih did.



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/07/20 1:13 PM

The couple threads that I've seen regarding the swap said to drill the hole for the cam sensor and modify the water temp. I'd love to keep it simple and not have to do that but not sure it's possible. They also say to use the gen1 sprocket cover.

http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=70287&pagenumber=1

http://zx1441r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3307


* Last updated by: rep94401 on 1/7/2020 @ 1:14 PM *

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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 19087

RE: Dead head
01/07/20 4:42 PM

That seems odd. The exhausts are crushed but the intakes are untouched. ...and only one cylinder effected. This wasn't a timing problem. Is it possible that both shims flew out at the same time? Doubtful. I can see one but both would be too big of a coincidence.

I like the idea of swapping in a Gen2 engine. It will take time but no hurry. I do not think they will be making a Gen3 anytime soon. I'm planning to go with a Gen2 motor myself someday. Seems like changing over to the Gen3 ECU along with all the other electronics would be the easiest thing to do. Please keep us updated. I'm subscribed. We haven't had anyone here do a Gen2 to Gen1 motor swap yet. I'm very curious how it would go.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE flies out, full Tsukigi Cannon exhaust, BMC race filter, Muzzy's block off plates, Super Sprox 17t output sprocket, AFM 45t rear sprocket, EK zzz 530 chain, Gilles Tooling axle adjusters, PC5, Romans map, AT-200, Ignition Module, LCD-200, Speedohealer V4, Glow-Shift gauges, Illumiglow 210 mph clock faces, HM PLUS quickshifter, Factory Pro EVO Shift Star, RC's oil pump cover, Moto-D magnetic oil drain plug, MIT billet oil filler cap, Shorai 14A2 Lithium battery, Spiegler SS clutch and brake lines, HyperPro RSC steering damper, LighTech fuel tank cap, Vortex rearsets, lightweight mudflap bracket, FP Racing preload adjusters, Ohlins FGRT807 forks and KA544 shock, Carrazzeria Tri-R wheels, Bridgeport 90° valve stems, CZ 320mm front rotors, Galfer rear wave rotor, Pazzo levers, ProBots Dzus fasteners and many other bolts replaced with aluminum or Ti, Vortex mirror blocks, CRG bar end mirrors, LSL frame sliders, axle sliders, billet bar ends, 2WheelWorkz muffler

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/07/20 6:04 PM

The shim for the exh. valve furthest to the end fell to the side when I removed the bucket so not sure where it was sitting prior, but the shim was still centered on the other broken valve. I agree that it wasn't a timing issue because I drove it another 5 miles home without any further loss in power or damage to the other cylinders. I did find a valve keeper that was lying on the spring seat so I'm assuming that's what failed.
I'll keep this post updated but my local machine shop is slow. It's pretty much a one-man operation and last time I took a head to him for a valve job it took a month and me having to call him a few times. Even then, he didn't complete it until an hour before I showed up.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/07/20 7:36 PM

Got it. Looks like this was more an exercise using a cam sensor for 'who fired last?' I guess at one point they may have played an emissions kind of game. It might have been for sequential firing? Not a lot of cranking over until it starts. Starts right up instead. Do you need it? No. Will it code? Yes. Will it run? Yes. Stick the sensor in the harness and zip-tie it up on the harness and expose it to air. Or for an experiment, place a 400 ohm resistor in between the two wires at the cam sensor main harness side of the connector.

Start variables:
1. WOT the throttle with key on, no start. Then start the bike. Does it run? Yes. Leave resistor and sensor out of the loop.

2. Did the bike start? No. Connect the sensor and try starting it. Did it start? Yes. Keep the sensor connected. Turn the key off. Do not WOT the throttle. Did bike start? Yes. Leave sensor in place and tape it off.

3. With resistor in place did the bike start? Yes. Did the bike code?* Yes. Turn the bike off. Restart the engine. Did the bike start? Yes. Goop glue resistor in place.

* Code Concept:
The sensor sends analog (many) inputs. This means a coil winding and a pass at those windings creates a magnetic field. A slow pass is one electrical pulse. At high speed, there is a gradual incremental pulse entering as it changes the pulse as the speed increases = Many inputs. This shows no code when the sensor has the ability to send an analog signal up that wire to the ECU.

The second sort of input is when the sensor fails, is not plugged in, or the signal is out of range. So digital means one. Or the concept of this being a single input over and over and does not change that pulse to many different high and low rpm inputs like a sensor does. So when we cross the ohm resistor to make it act like a sensor, yes, this is reconnected, but the signal is going to constantly read 400 ohms over and over. When you grasp the two differences, you can play with the binary numbers.

For example, 1 is that single ohm number entering over and over and it codes. If no sensor or resistor was in the connector and was left open like it is, then there is no input at all and the ECU reads this as 0.

A. Code: Because there is nothing connected at the connector for the one wire up the ECU.
B. Code: Because the resistor and the cam sensor are there dangling but connected; still sends a digital input.
C. Code: Because one wire is out of the connector and does not make a complete loop.

Where A is going to crank until you find it's idio as to how to start it.
*Where B is the book saying, 'connect the cs wires thru an ohm meter and is the resistance 400 ohms?' This is where the book's abstract says something about recognizing the 'last good known value.' When you light that up for the first time, the ECU saved the last good known value when the key is turned off. So for sure you can start the bike with the sensor in place and there is the good known number. If it codes, maybe the body bolted to the head acts the ground.

Code wise, 'we take precautions and limp the HP.' That does not seem as something in the injection loop that might limp the mapping, but only a dyno knows for sure. A pc can override it. A flash can override it. Would the speed sensor hack into a limp map mode? Would the cam sensor, ABS? My guess would be full power mode. It's more for startup and emissions than it is for FI input like throttle, subs, vac, water type sensors that would more limp the power some.

If it were me, I'd say fuck it and plug in and zip the cs and call it a day. I'd have a good known wink-wink.

Make sense theory hackabilly wise?


* Last updated by: Hub on 1/7/2020 @ 7:44 PM *



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/08/20 12:21 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, Hub. I read through it a few times and think I understand most of it. I tend to shy away from messing with the electrical connections. It seems like every time I try to troubleshoot something electrical on bike, car, whatever, the readings never seem to match up with what the manual says it should.
I'd love to do as you say and just say f' it and mount the motor in the bike but there's still the problem with the water temp sensor not being compatible between Gen1/2. Apparently it's smaller on Gen 2 and the electrical connection is different. Since I have to take it to the machine shop to get the hole enlarged to accommodate the gen1 sensor, might as well get the cam sensor drilled too. It's going to be so much easier to pull the head while the motor is still in a crate rather than after I've got it mounted in the bike and everything attached.

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/27/20 1:33 PM

I took the heads into the machine shop last weekend to have the work done. I've taken some pictures of the differences. The shop is going to drill a hole for the cam sensor and increase the size of the one for the water temp sensor.


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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/27/20 1:33 PM

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/27/20 1:35 PM

The black sensor is off the Gen 1 motor and has larger threads and a different electrical connection than Gen 2.


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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/27/20 6:53 PM

Cam chain tensioner holes are different.



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Badzx14r


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Joined: 03/17/09

Posts: 1914

RE: Dead head
01/27/20 9:06 PM

i hope you have a fob key to go with that gen2 ecu


yeah you lost one valve due to retainer failure and that valve or some piece of metal from it took out 2nd valve. my drag bike did it last week sucks donkey did balls


* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 1/27/2020 @ 9:10 PM *



“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!”

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 8:31 AM

donkey did balls have
large and heavy each were they
they were not you nuts?



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Badzx14r


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Joined: 03/17/09

Posts: 1914

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 11:38 AM

donkey did balls have
large and heavy each were they
they were not you nuts?


if anybody knows nuts it be hub


* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 1/28/2020 @ 11:41 AM *



“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!”

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 4:57 PM

An attempt a Haiku



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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 5:07 PM

Both sensors read out the same so just pull the terminals out with the right tool at the main harness, run them on the male ends of the sensor and use goop glue to keep them in place. Less machining the better. See if they have the cam tensioner that came with the head. Both are different designs, unless it interchanges? You'll know either way.



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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 5:36 PM

I bought a complete '17 motor so I have the correct cam chain tensioner for it. I'm not using the Gen 2 ecu...I'm using all my original electronics except for some of the things that will easily interchange like the spark plug harness and a couple others I saw that look to be the same. The shop quoted me $250 to do all the machine work, which is in line with what it cost one of the other people who did the same upgrade.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12087

RE: Dead head
01/28/20 8:08 PM

Gen2 is 1441cc and yours is a 1352cc. Why not plugin the [later] longer stroke engine.



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Badzx14r


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Joined: 03/17/09

Posts: 1914

RE: Dead head
01/29/20 6:14 AM

.I'm using all my original electronics

that's what i do . i even use a gen 1 head has a smaller combustion chamber for more compression



“If you're afraid - don't do it, - if you're doing it - don't be afraid!”

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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 19087

RE: Dead head
01/29/20 7:06 AM

Keep the this thread running all the way to the end of the build. We will make the Gen3 engine right here!! I'm subscribed.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE flies out, full Tsukigi Cannon exhaust, BMC race filter, Muzzy's block off plates, Super Sprox 17t output sprocket, AFM 45t rear sprocket, EK zzz 530 chain, Gilles Tooling axle adjusters, PC5, Romans map, AT-200, Ignition Module, LCD-200, Speedohealer V4, Glow-Shift gauges, Illumiglow 210 mph clock faces, HM PLUS quickshifter, Factory Pro EVO Shift Star, RC's oil pump cover, Moto-D magnetic oil drain plug, MIT billet oil filler cap, Shorai 14A2 Lithium battery, Spiegler SS clutch and brake lines, HyperPro RSC steering damper, LighTech fuel tank cap, Vortex rearsets, lightweight mudflap bracket, FP Racing preload adjusters, Ohlins FGRT807 forks and KA544 shock, Carrazzeria Tri-R wheels, Bridgeport 90° valve stems, CZ 320mm front rotors, Galfer rear wave rotor, Pazzo levers, ProBots Dzus fasteners and many other bolts replaced with aluminum or Ti, Vortex mirror blocks, CRG bar end mirrors, LSL frame sliders, axle sliders, billet bar ends, 2WheelWorkz muffler

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
01/29/20 1:41 PM

Gen2 is 1441cc and yours is a 1352cc. Why not plugin the [later] longer stroke engine.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing and why I need to get the head to work with my '06 electronics. I'm going to swap out everything I can considering it's 11 years newer and 30K less miles.

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rep94401



Joined: 01/05/20

Posts: 22

RE: Dead head
02/25/20 11:58 AM

Nothing new to report...still waiting on the machine shop to start on the head. As mentioned previously, he's pretty much a one-man operation so he keeps telling me he has other stuff to take care of first. When I talked to him last week he said he hopes to have it done by this weekend.

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