Just did another track day at Eastern Creek in Sydney last Sunday.
And I still have never got my knee down!
I have some rear sets coming and I am hoping these will put me in a better position on the bike to make this a little easier.
I know my body position is the problem and not the way the pegs are set up but do you fast guys get your knees down easily with the standard peg configuration on the ZX-14?

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/2/2014 @ 2:51 AM *

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As much as no one likes to hear it, you shouldn't be pushing for getting your knee down. It will come with the speed. Stretching to scrape a puck will inevitably lead to poor form (crossing up) and bad habits (poor line selection, swooping apexes, etc). As you get faster, you will start touching down. Just focus on your lines and add corner speed. Maybe snag an instructor for some pointers.

It can be done, though!

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Yeah, I guess I'm not that fazed about it.
Would be really nice though.
I guess I have a way to go yet and it will happen when it happens.
Or should I say if it happens ;)

Nice work with those standard pegs trailboss...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/2/2014 @ 11:57 PM *

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As much as no one likes to hear it, you shouldn't be pushing for getting your knee down.

BOSS is correct. Lose the lowers. Time to start touching parts.

It will come with the speed.

BOSS is right again. It takes time. Don't think about it just take the turns like you are literally skating and can hear this sheeeeeeee happening.

Stretching to scrape a puck will inevitably lead to poor form (crossing up) and bad habits (poor line selection, swooping apexes, etc).

All tied up in one is BOSS gets it right. Do the same thing you are doing now. Be smooth. Faster means leaning more. So without thinking, go out, take the same lines, but shave the peg feeler. Once you feel it, your first reaction is 'crossing up' or more like sitting up you spooked yourself. This upsets your form, because you are now entering body move as well. Back to being smooth when all this happens you smooth it out, not spook it out sitting up and out in turn whatever weeds.

Poor line selection is open to discussion. Ideal apex you mean? How about, whatever smooth gets you in is the smooth that gets you out. So you screw up is you really don't. Smooth gets you out of it keep finding line. As far as swooping apexes, you mean the bottom out kind? Because this is where we are headed for is step 2.

Step 1 is you are comfortable with the track, know where you are fast, where some lines give you trouble, etc. Now comes the skate. You are going to have to crank it over more and start to wear out some toe tips and side boots, plus the peg extenders. So first you hang your boots out all comfortable on the pegs, lean the bike over more and begin to 'feel the toe tag the tarmac.'

See how the cross up/sit up would make you lift the bike, but rather tuck your toe in you found the sweet spot. That, or keep your toe in it, move it in, lean the bike more and start tagging the peg extender. There is your sweet spot #2, because you have a lot left.

The peg is going to pivot up and now the pipe is going to hit. It's all back to feel, know it, stay in it, and shave parts in the skating of it. That's pretty much step 2. There was no thinking about it. Now go buy another photo and see how low the bike is, where the peg is, and how much body did your ass crack move from center don't think = Your personal body style.

Step 3 is to rub that seat like you can't sit on it you give it throttle. Auto tire cleaner, baby powder, furniture polish, you want that seat like a greased pig, plus your ass and inner thighs peppered there too.

Once again, this is practice peppering until you run this all naturally with the body lift off the bike and your own style comes in: do not think about it. Your thinking is to tag toe and run smooth doing it. Once you are in the peg shaving, you are going to salvage those extenders and buy more. Who knows how long you are going to shave these down getting there, but do not exceed the peg or the threads are junk you start shaving pegs now.

This is not some weekend you'll get it next time out who knows? You first want to hear that sheeeeeeeeeeeee under you sitting upright. You'll be far over enough to slide your ass half or a 1/4 off the seat and begin to shave with the knee, so you now know to use less bike and more knee to keep from tagging [parts] as your knee starts dragging instead.

As you get faster, you will start touching down.

The track wisdom keeps showing the same old move. Say yes to this. Every time I go out I feel I went faster and no, no one has a watch on me. If you said yes, see how slow you really are going? Hindsight said I can go a lot faster thru this corner than I thought I could: the wisdom builds.

Just focus on your lines and add corner speed. It can be done, though!

Back to basics as stated. Never sacrifice the smooth line, meaning, it's still smooth as the last one you didn't think about. There is always a continuation of the upsetup never move from the smooth. Every time that tire stem comes around there is still smooth that continues is the next stem de groble. Whatever that meant? Don'think. Listen for the shave.

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/3/2014 @ 12:52 AM *

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Yeah, of course you guys are both 100% right.
I will take a page out of your books and be patient.
I am at the scraping pegs, fairings and pipes stage.
And yes, it scares the crape out of me most times I do it.

Thanks for all the insites into this aspect of riding.

Always listen to experience and the experts...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/3/2014 @ 4:26 AM *

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If you're touching fairings and hard parts without touching a knee, it's time to work on body position. Make sure that your ass is back in the seat, 1/2 on, 1/2 off. Ball of the inside foot on the peg, heel turned in. Outside knee should be gripping the tank. Outside arm draped across the tank, inside arm bent and both hands LIGHT on the grips. This bike (even more so than many others, oddly) handles so much better with a light touch on the bars. Get your head down and inside, as though your trying to kiss the mirror.

Also, has your suspension been tuned for your weight/riding style? 14's are pretty stiffly sprung from the factory, but if your preload and damping is wonky you might be having ride height issues.

And for god's sake, take your fucking peg feelers off. Not only are they gonna startle you with a terrible sound and a prematurely folding footrest, but they also fuck up the track surface.

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Also, to repeat a piece of Hub's advice: buy the photos.

Not just to support the track photog, but also to track your progress and have hard evidence of the form issues you need to work on. Don't be afraid of asking them to focus on you a bit extra. Every track photographer I've worked with is happy to help, and loves doing what they can to improve your experience.

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Hi traiboss,
Happy to listen to someone whos been there and done that and who knows, but I thought the peg feelers were pretty integral because it is the manufactures way of saying "go any further and you may scrape bodywork that could unweighted the bike and possibly cause a lowside"?

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There are a lot of things that the manufacturer does that are not consistent with aggressive track riding. Do you leave your stock tires, exhaust or bodywork alone? Of course not. They have an obligation to cater to the lowest common denominator, and peg feelers are a great way to keep folks from getting full lean out of their bikes and getting in over their heads.

If you think the peg feelers on your stock rearsets are necessary, you're going to be mighty disappointed in anything aftermarket. Those all sit higher, with no peg feelers, by design. Performance track riding requires maximum clearance, with the rider relying on chassis and tire feedback combined with skill and experience to gauge lean angle.

On the 14R, you should be scraping things in the following order:
1. Knee
2. Toe
3. Peg
4. Lower fairing
5. Hard parts
6. Helmet/shoulder/ass/etc

With all of this in mind, you should also remember that the 14 is NOT primarily a track bike. It acquits itself well on the field of battle, but the long wheelbase and high weight aren't conducive to competitive lap times. If you're trying to chase down smaller bikes in the corners, you'll eventually get burned. Work up to your max lean slowly, and leave room for errors. These big bitches don't take kindly to mid-line corrections!

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Can't argue with all of that logic.
The peg feelers are coming off..

Thanks trailboss.
Good to talk to someone who knows.

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Can't argue with all of that logic.
The peg feelers are coming off..
Thanks trailboss.
Good to talk to someone who thinks they know.

Fixed.

As I'm sure you've noticed, there are all sorts of opinions around here. I'm just sharing what I've experienced and what I've been taught.

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Old School

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The peg feelers are coming off..

Look at the shifter tip let alone the cover that had a screw there. I ran total loss so no stator to oil loss ground thru catching one of these motherfukcers.

Signed,

NOLTT

Remember, this is just one bike of many race bikes. I would bring spare foot pegs, because they ground to a point and the more they ground the tighter I had to tuck my toes in. I had no peg and they complained it was sharp as a mother and they were right, but I still had a perch to mount one back on don't listen.

Listen, friction alone is going to take care of that ball tip you are removing. You are not about to tear up the track by tagging that much ball on the ground. The whole point is to hear/feel the shave touchdown and there is your first sweet spot where is you body?: knee in position to replace the ball, check, roger that, a-OK, you bet, gotta go, the mail has arrived, there she goes, who dat? That long oil leak you fuckedup the day.

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Mighty impressive hub.
If I was in the great U S of A and in the vicinity I'd hound you till you gave me a few private lessons.
But at this stage you are safe from my stalking...
P.S.
In the good old days the race number displays weren't particularly streamlined were they...
And you had a 3 digit number?
I would have thought number 1 would have been the pick for least resistance ;)

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/4/2014 @ 3:10 AM *

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Thanks, Yanni. Looking back, that group had decades of racing years on me or more. You had to find that deep down thing, trying to whittle down those years they had, but I was kidding myself. No dirt track experience, just a street rider showing up. That's what you needed just to be competitive with the club or pro level.

Here is the biggest block to climb and I can't teach you this. "It's in you or not." The attitude, the cockyness, the confidence, the everything rolled up in one to be #1. You either have the will to win [or plant a knee] or you are the also ran. Putting a knee down is just part of it. It's confidence on back that gets you there... as corny as it sounds.

I mentioned in the beginning:
Lose the lowers, install the balls to lock the springs on the peg tilt... BOSS is one speed with the lowers on and the balls off. We are in lean mode we want to haul ass, not tag plastic out that far or just touch a knee down, which is it? (JK) This is all about being comfortable about doing it. Some guy on utube has a knee down in a parking lot going slow. Lots of levels to choose from. The beauty is to pick and choose what you think works and toss the rest aside. So next outing think smooth, because that takes a lot of concentration and all of a sudden the knee hits without thinking: you go thru the motions of body movement off the seat, wax on wax-off-a-slide if comfortable that way. Remember, where is the line in all this?

And say you are more comfortable with a knee out turning this direction than the other. Find the first one? Practice both? I'd force you to concentrate on both. Part of racing is turning the other direction so ambidextrous is you. Back to working the mind in, so both knees are a natural occurrence. But here's the thing. All of a sudden, your stronger turning side helps from the ambi side.

Which brings this question up. Are you favoring one side more than the other?

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I sort of get what you're saying in the back half... But why would you want to lock your street pegs in place and remove your lowers? They are basically just sliders to protect your cases. And locked pegs that are stock height are going to be a problem...

Edit: To be honest, I have no idea why I'm even asking. Everything you say is cryptic at best. Have you ever tried just saying what you mean?

* Last updated by: TRAILBOSS on 10/4/2014 @ 12:21 PM *

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But why would you want to lock your street pegs in place and remove your lowers?

If you want to go thru a corner fast you need more ground clearance. You want to tag one feeler, not grind down everything. Take a large flat cardboard, stick it at the rear tire and lift the board up until it hits the footpeg. Look at the gap from the muffler when the peg is hitting the ball. Lift the cardboard as you lift the peg. Do you see the bike running out of ground clearance? The peg retracts up, the gap narrows and the pipe is going to hit or say the rear brake pedal first?

What I'm saying is, look at how the moment you hit the ball, the peg is fully extended down and the ball hits first, no retracting happens at the peg. But what if like you said, you whale into it too hard, you have a lot of clearance having the bike upright more attempting this on the ball end hitting first. Look at your photo, BOSS, where your knee is down and the gap of the ball is not even close. Look at your right peg. It has a nipple on it still. I don't think you tagged the pegs. That's the sweet spot of lean and your body is as low as it is going to go, comfortably. Look at the bike's angle, now look at the air gap with fairing on. If you fucup, look at how much more lean you have when the peg can retract up more. I'm saying the ball is the safety margin of not too much margin for error we do not use them: we tag the brake pedal for example.

Having the peg with ball, you are cleared from hitting the brake pedal> if retraction happens @ full lock. Without ball, more parts like, fairing lower, foot peg tip, brake pedal, cryptic kind of parts you should have figured out here, but I am explaining the cryptic now. Try the cardboard gap and tap.

I am saying you are not taking that bike fast until you start shaving the peg balls sitting upright says another cryptic message of knee down. Once you master that type of control, your pegs stop and your knee takes over. Ideal lean is peg hovering over the tarmac and knee touching the tarmac. Where the knee kicks in to [say] raise the bike the moment it hits; which stops from shaving ball and/or boot tip any longer. It's all about feel. What is the difference you feel a peg or feel a knee?

They are basically just sliders to protect your cases. And locked pegs that are stock height are going to be a problem...

Not necessarily. Look at how much lock movement you have, we are trying to tag a ball first. We are attempting to feel that touch. Eventually, the shave and knee are both happening together. The knee tells the shave to upright the bike off of the shave. The knee is the feeler [now] and that hovers over that turn.

There is no thinking> it happens too fast for that turn. That's the drill. Wasn't the first tag a spook and you sat upright? But then you felt the peg ride your foot up by stepping on it? Then, the shave next time was to stay in it and that told you that's all it wrote for ground clearance. That 1 degree short of lifting the rear off the ground is where you are at. That brought you back up or stayed in it? Better it made you stay in it and don't think about it: you still have control every second it's happening.

The thought is, never think you have to lift if the shaving is happening: the instinct will make it lift... If you understand [experienced] dragging things.

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I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. If my pegs touch I know the leaning is done. I keep them far off the deck when I can help it. I suppose that's a function of being comfortable running fixed pegs, but I don't need to fold them up before I stop leaning. I most certainly don't need feelers for advanced warning or anything else.

And I'm not running naked cases out there. Grinding engine parts for the sake of another degree of lean, especially on a non-race bike, is ridiculous. The 14R is capable of plenty of lean angle, but it's not winning any races.

Do as you like, man. Clearly you had your day, and I won't argue the subjective nature of your experiences or how they influence your riding.

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I won't argue the subjective nature of your experiences or how they influence your riding.

And my brake drills are just as unorthodox.

Grinding engine parts for the sake of another degree of lean, especially on a non-race bike, is ridiculous. The 14R is capable of plenty of lean angle, but it's not winning any races.

Who's going racing? If I were out trackdaying, I'd be loaded up with ball stems. I guess old style is just that. Don't your shoes tag the ground and pull them off the pegs occasionally... or is that just me?

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I'd say...BOTH you guys(Yannih and Boss)are friggin leaned in just fineLOL!!!I think like Hub said here...smooth.Comfortable.The rest will follow if it's supposed to...yes?Like that guy getting his knee down in that parking lot....some can,some can't(me).I just can't seem to get my leg out there...to bend out there...but I do scrape toes.That's about enough for me...and outta meLOL!!!You guys have fun and it'll happen...No tracks here...just the street with some nice curves and sweeps.Fun enough.I quit tryin to be Rossi.But being comfortable leaning in and rollin through as Hub says...I think that's the key right there.Good stuff you guys;)

I definitely agree with Boss about the 'crossing-up' deal.And the handlebar lightness.My bike steers and handles MUCH BETTER when I kinda get back some in the seat and lighten the weight on those bars...very different feel to the bike.Tried getting in close,I think it was loading the frontend just a bit more than it really wanted.Felt better...a lot better...sliding back a bit and steering with my palms pushing,rather than gripping.And getting tucked in a bit more.

I was looking at Boss's pics there...that's one hell of a lean with the 14 for sure....very nice;)

And Hub...nice 'mod' work on that case;)(and lever)LOL!!!

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/4/2014 @ 7:56 PM *

Hub and Trailboss,
I want to thank you both for your experienced words above.
I read what you both wrote and I have taken points from each of you.

I took "ass halve on half off, outside knee gripping the tank, outside arm draped across the tank, head position kissing the mirrors and light grip on the bars" from Trailboss.
Sorry Trailboss but I took "reinstalling the peg feelers" from Hub because I actually agree that it's a safe sweet spot that you can learn to consistently drag with control instead of being spooked as a great learning method.

I also took stay smooth and don't force the knee down issue from both.

I went for a ride today on some great twisties and employed the above.
While I didn't scrape a peg feeler or get a knee down, I really noticed the difference with getting the body low and way to the inside of the turn. The draped arm across the tank and head position towards the mirror gave me a confident turn feeling that I haven't really had before.
I also felt for the first time that I was starting to get towards being in a position that with some more practice and confidence the knee will touch on its own accord.

Really appreciate it guys.
I'm pretty happy right now.

Funny thing is the above advise was not a real surprise to me so why it took you guys to remind me to try it all to a proper level is a complete mystery!

We are strange creatures...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/16/2014 @ 2:27 PM *

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Well, so much for peg feelers.
I finally received and installed a set of rearsets.
Trailboss should be happy...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/17/2014 @ 1:36 PM *

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Slowly but surely...

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I'm happy as long as you're learning and progressing your skills. Get after it, dude! Looking good!

Keep in mind that with the rearsets, you'll have less warning before hard mounted parts start touching.

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