I was comparing stats on liter bikes from shootouts done over the last three years and a disturbing trend seems to be emerging. With the notable exceptions of the '08 CBR 1000 which has dropped to a svelte measured dry weight of 410 lbs and the even lighter Ducati 1098, most of the liter bikes need to go on a serious Jenny Craig diet. They have gained 15 to 20 pounds compared to literbikes from just two years ago. Most of this is in the exhaust system and a lot of the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of our government bureaucrats as they mandate ever tighter emissions and noise compliance standards. This also affects driveability as they have to run crispy critter lean down low to get by those same standards. This is effecting all the bikes regardless of engine displacement,just look at the differences between the '06/'07 ZX-14 and the '07/'08 versions. Heavier catalysts are needed on the '08s to meet emissions and blubbering rich A/F at high rpm are spec'd to keep the catalysts alive. I imagine a lot of the torque dip at 3000 rpm can be contributed to a lean A/F ratio. Another trend I see is thinner and thinner structural margins in the frame backbones and swingarms to compensate for weight gains elsewhere. How many instances have we heard of lately where frames are cracking in the steering head or other areas? Speaking of trends, the liter bikes keep pushing rpm limits to stratosperic new heights to win the horsepower wars that sales are so dependent on. Over the last few years, peak engine torque figures have barely budged but peak rpm and horespower keep climbing. The problem is few riders are capable of using that type of high rpm power and it's of little use except at Maxton. In Motorcycle USA's 2008 Smackdown, the 139 BHP Ducati 1098 lapped quicker and outran in the quarter mile all but the aforementioned CBR 1000. Some of those same literbikes had as much as a 20 BHP advantage but the Duck put them all on the trailer. It begs the question, are Italian Stallions stronger? Just some things to ponder.

Kruz

Hey Kruz,

Interesting observations. Frankly, if the weight additions are held to the exhaust systems then there really isn't a huge problem as for many, this is the first thing to hit the floor of the shop.

my 2 cents.

Kruz
You are right on the money, remember how much the stock systems weighed. My mind is a little fuzzy, but I think if a guy changed out the stockers for say an alien head system. You would save yourself around 20lbs on the scale, granted it wasnt all enviromental stuff, but it did fatten up the bike. The sad thing is the government is doing this everywhere, a good example is diesel pickups. You should see the chit they put on the new trucks. They actually have a piece of the muffler that is like a catalytic converter, but it actually contains a filter system that pulls the diesel particulates out and then burns them up internally (filter regeneration). You can imagine what this has done for reliability. Just wait to see what the next four years bring.

* Last updated by: hamr56 on 3/20/2009 @ 4:41 PM *

That's why the '04-'05 zx10r is still the best litre you can buy.
Only 375lbs!!!

Of course emission control devices, traction control, ABS, and other doodads on the newer bikes are gonna add weight. That's just something we are gonna have to live with. They're easy enough to pull off and/or replace if you don't want 'em. Since this trend will make the factories shed weight in other areas, that would be tougher and more expensive for us to do to our bikes ourselves, I think there is a plus side.... as long as it doesn't interfere with the bike's structural integrity as Kruz eluded to.

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/20/2009 @ 4:49 PM *

I noticed the same thing the last few years. I dont think people look at weight much anymore because they know it is all in the exhaust. Plus the new fad for a awhile was the under tail exhaust and that adds alot of weight. The new bikes are a lot less street freindly than the old sport bikes but that is what people want. The kawi zx9r is practically a cruiser compared to the new zx10.

Dogo, that's a tastefully done 10R. It's really sharp.

Dogo, did you restore it after the crash you had? I remember on the old forum you had a little mishaps with it. I love those years zx10's. its the best year of that bike so far.

That '04/'05 ZX-10r probaby respresents the pinnacle of race replica development, one of the most track ready bikes ever made. Remember how it dominated Master Bike year after year? So what happened? The '08 ZX-10 puts out a few more HP, gained a few pounds, the question is, is it really any better? Or is it a step backward? Sometimes the manufacturers seem to take one step forward and two backward. Case in point..the '08 ZX-14. On paper it should have been a Busa destroyer, in reality... not so much, somewhere, something got lost in the translation. Partly to blame is the ever increasing web of government regulations the manufacturers must deal with. These things are always regressive, they tend to add weight and make less horsepower, just the thing we don't want....thanks Uncle Sam! Secondly, sales in the 600's and to a lesser extent the liter bikes are driven by consumer demand for constant change and of course high placement in the all important magazine shootouts. What difference does it make if those same shootouts are track biased when statistics show a whopping 95% of these motorcycles never see a track? Change for the sake of change is not always good, why throw the baby out with the bath water, reinvent the wheel so to speak? What we need is change we can believe in! Hmm.... where have I heard that one before? Every two years the Big Four come up with a "new and improved model", better this, more of that, an extra injector here, 30% increase in chassis stiffness there, 2mm off the swingarm, 10 grams off the wrist pins...you get the idea. Is the result any better as a motorcycle? Sometimes, sometimes not. We can't argue that horsepower ratings keep going up while ET's in the quarter mile keep falling but are these motorcycles really any better, any more fun to ride, any faster around a track? I like to look at the development of the Porsche 911 over the years as the way to do it right. Here's a machine that has undergone a slow evolutionary process over the years rather than a revolutionary process and it works. The 911 has always been at the top of the sports car heap from it's very inception yet it has always remained true to it's own roots. You can look at a 1959 911 and a 2009 model and you can see they share the same genetic code (even though not one single part from a '59 would fit on a '09). Ok, I'm done, just thinkin out loud!

Kruz

What drives me crazy is that the MSRP of a 600 is more than the MSRP on my 03 R1. Yet my R1 makes 30 more hp and weighs less than the new 600. To me the 600's havent changed much in 5 years other than the seating position being more uncomfortable with a more racier look. The great part is that you cant buy a bad sports bike now.

Thanks Jay. Wish I could take credit, but I bought it that way.

Yeah Hoopie. I had it all back together, plus a few extra goodies, a few weeks after my crash... My ego is still recovering though! ;)

I think the third generation zx10r has some definite refinements over the first generation (like mine). The rawness of the first generaton is what has always appealed to me however. Like you said Kruz, "one of the most rack ready bikes ever made." Which also seems to be the #1 thing the judges of Masterbike are looking for. I'm very interested to see where Kawi goes with the 2010 zx10r. I'm wondering how the lack of a race team is gonna affect development.

I think the third generation zx10r has some definite refinements over the first generation (like mine). The rawness of the first generaton is what has always appealed to me however. Like you said Kruz, "one of the most rack ready bikes ever made." Which also seems to be the #1 thing the judges of Masterbike are looking for. I'm very interested to see where Kawi goes with the 2010 zx10r. I'm wondering how the lack of a race team is gonna affect development.

I try to watch AMA and World Superbike every chance I get. The one thing which is the same at every race is not a single green bike is in the top 5, and most often, not in the top 10.

Go to an AMA Supercross, though, and green is on the podium almost every time, very often first place overall.

Roll back 5 years, and we saw some green machines winning or placing top 5 in World Superbike.

Not sure what Kawasaki are doing, because there is no doubt they could do much better in Superbike if they wanted to, assuming they could get a couple good riders who don't throw the bikes away in the first 10 laps every race.

I try to watch AMA and World Superbike every chance I get. The one thing which is the same at every race is not a single green bike is in the top 5, and most often, not in the top 10.

Go to an AMA Supercross, though, and green is on the podium almost every time, very often first place overall.

Roll back 5 years, and we saw some green machines winning or placing top 5 in World Superbike.

Not sure what Kawasaki are doing, because there is no doubt they could do much better in Superbike if they wanted to, assuming they could get a couple good riders who don't throw the bikes away in the first 10 laps every race.

But the first gen zx10r seems to always be the bike to beat on the local circut.

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/25/2009 @ 10:16 AM *

I was just talking to one of the moderators on the Fireblade.org site, Dogo. An experienced rider, he has both an '07 and an 08 CBR 1000RR and prefers his '07. This despite the fact the '08 has won just about every literbike shootout in '08. Buy your bike, modify it to suit the way you ride and then the rest is up to you. I think I must have dug up every literbike shootout on the '07s and my CBR got a lot of seconds on the track portions and a lot of firsts in the street section. Anyway, I'm happy, if someone beats me through the twisties he's a better rider.

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/25/2009 @ 2:41 PM *

I was just talking to one of the moderators on the Fireblade.org site, Dogo. An experienced rider, he has both an '07 and an 08 CBR 1000RR and prefers his '07. This despite the fact the '08 has won just about every literbike shootout in '08. Buy your bike, modify it to suit the way you ride and then the rest is up to you. I think I must have dug up every literbike shootout on the '07s and my CBR got a lot of seconds on the track portions and a lot of firsts in the street section. Anyway, I'm happy, if someone beats me through the twisties he's a better rider.

Kruz

Or he's just ridden those twisties before. ;)

Couldn't agree with ya more, Kruz. I waited four years to pull the trigger and get a zx10r. Wanted one from the day they came out, but also knew I would not be completely happy if it was my only bike. When I had a little extra $$$, and could "justify" a second bike, I already knew what I was gettin'!

Glad to hear you're diggin' your new CBR. I know you hung around the fireblade forum a while before you pulled the trigger!

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/25/2009 @ 3:10 PM *

Dogo wrote:

Or he's just ridden those twisties before. ;)

Man is that ever the truth. I won't even go fast on a new section of rode until I have ridden it a few times and have a rough idea of my speed and can pick out my braking markers. Sometimes you only get one chance to screw up in this game.

Kruz

have also my mind set on the new blade as a second bike...at least until i saw this...!!!

its a special edition, only 50 to be made for the german market!!
http://www.visordown.com/news/images/Ninja-WhiteEdition.jpg

Looks nice Jafo, besides paint, are they doing anything special to it?

Kruz

as far as i can tell they arent doing anything else john, its being listed at about 400euros over list which is the price of a paintjob!!
looks great tho!!

Yes it does, I still think the '09 Blade would suit you better though. Any word on whether Honda ever figured out the oil burning issue with the '08 Blade and got it sorted? That's really the only thing that kept me from buying one.

Kruz

the word here is it has to do with the type of piston rings they used, there were only a few probs and probably had to do with how individual owners ran in their bikes!
ive met quite a few riders and without exception theyve all said its an awesome machine.
im happy enough that any issues are sorted, just need to rob a bank now!!

.......oh wait, they have no money either!! LOL

Well, I'm very happy with my '07, in fact I may leave this bike stock except for a fender eliminator. The bike makes such smooth power I don't think I really need anymore and I like the subdued howl of the twin exhaust when you step on it's tail.

Hopefully things will turn around for you and you can make that trip we talked about down in San Antonio.

Kruz