Don’t neglect to check those valves Boys
After 3 track days in the past year and 15000 miles on the ODO I decided to follow the recommended service and check and adjust my valves.

I have to give major credit and thanks to Rook for his instructive picture tutorials on this task and others necessary to get er done. Never having done this maintenance on this bike before it took about 5 hrs to the point of measuring the valve shim thickness.

All of the exhaust valve clearances were at the min .22mm or a bit tight. One of the intake valves was tight, 3 were at the min of .15mm and the other 4 were near the max of .20mm.

Now it seems the hardest part in completing this task is getting the fing parts. None of the dealers in LA have the parts and all quoted 3-5 days to get them, I guess not many riders get this service performed at the stealership either so no parts in stock. They OEM Kawi parts are expensive, +$10 each from bikebandit.

Next task after the top of the engine goes back together is throttle body sync and adjust.. Might have a shop perform this task because of my lack of a multi-channel air flow gauge but then again buying one, and the right angle screw driver would be cheaper than renting a trailer and taking the bike to the shop.

The hardest part will be unlacing the cams from the chain, changing the shims, replacing the cams, and finding out you're STILL out of tolerance.

Tight valves that are still in spec... are still in spec. If you re-shim be sure its necessary.

Have not done the synch yet but have all the tools. You need a manometer and the right pilot screwdriver. Must be phillips head.

glad the tutorial helped. Sorry if some pics were missing. I intend to get everything updated and posted properly some day soon.

I'm running out of band width according to Photobucket. You can only share so much and then....IDK....I guess we will se what happens.

Tight valves that are still in spec... are still in spec. If you re-shim be sure its necessary.

Hagrid:

I did wonder about this, and I'm certain there are varying opinions, depending on which side of the "shop time labor costs" food chain you're on...

So, I'm thinking that, if I'm at the dealer's shop getting the "full service" maintenance treatment, they check valve clearance as part of this service (at, I think, 16,500 miles).

The cost is reasonable for that service, (in my opinion) considering that amount of labor to perform that check.

BUT, let's say *one* valve is out of min. spec. tolerance, and for giggles, we'll say it's an exhaust valve thats too tight (the most likely scenario).

So, they have to tear down to do at least that one (and quite possibly, charge no more labor than the standard "full service" shop time to perform that much service).

Now, let's say that the rest of the exhaust valve clearances are "tight", but they're right at min. spec. clearance. So, tight valves that are still in spec ...are still in spec.

But, you and I know that, in 5000 more miles, they *wont* be in spec any more. They'll likely be too tight...

But, it will take all that work to get to that one out-of-spec valve.

I'm asking, does it make sense for me to ask the shop to "center up" (around the mid-point) the tight valves while they're in there? ... and also tell them that part of the work is on my dime, at the going shop rate, for as many additional valves that need to have their clearances centered (within reason, where it makes sense. ie: the valves we know will become too tight, shortly). That way, I think, they have a stake in taking their time, getting it right, not rushing it, and I get a better job done.

I get a beter job done, and I wont have them tearing into it again in 6 months because *one* more valve went out of spec...

What do you think? Would they go for it? Or, would they just tell me "they're tight, but in spec., we're not touching them."

mebbie,

I am Joe-A customer. I'm going to request my valves are on the wet side, not see how close I am to the dry side. So lets take a glass of water and fill it half way. That says shims are at blue-book spec. However, we ride in with a 1/3rd remaining on one exhaust side.

What about our other shims that measure all up and down that 2/3rds full [of halfilled], still in spec remember. So I have 1 or 2 ready to go within 5,000 miles and yes, a lot of work to pull cams, if not twice, you remeasure and the chart or you were lets say 4 times or twice was the cam pull.

Slow, if I were to waste half the day at it either way you look at it, I'd request my glass be filled rather than speck. Having a lot of the shims cleared on the 'loose side,' so it [has a chance to sit on the seat and cool] with that much more water to cool in; it's that much water down the extended interval; it's a drop in hp; a gain in grunt. It dials in down the road [later] to book [even] is the level of the glass that slowly evaporates as the pounding we give it.

Request loose times 16 shims.

Hub:

That's a really good idea. I understood all of it, and the rational for "make'em on the loose side", too. So, I did not read any nay-saying in there, and so I believe that you think the shop will be OK with it, too, as long as the extra work is on my dime.

Now, I will add that the secenario you described (1/3 full, 2/3 full), everything is in spec with that scenario, and they (the shop) dont touch anything because, well, it's all within allowable tolerances. It's a bunch more work to change anything, so, if all the valves are within manufacturer's tolerances, they won't go in to change anything...

*BUT*, if just one is out, and they need to crack it open, then... this would be fair game.

Thanks for the input, Hub.

Bob

meb, If nothing has changed in the flat rate manual, 'full service' means set valves/check valves. If say for example, 4 valves are [2 on the ex, 2 on the in] it still says, "I'd like for you to check for your accuracy, and when you find those out of spec in the 2/3rds empty range, the others are within spec, just blueprint it via the book's middle of the glass level.

However, on the extreme we have say a soft-seating going, then we want a request to select a range of 2/3rds full on the reset. This way, all your valves are @ 2/3rds, not the within spec of 1/3rd below level. Now, think of these guys as your valves opening:

Imagine these guys are set at 1/2 glass full. They are pushing sequence all even = Balanced "Smooth." So right out the gate, this is base setting 'smooth set.' We do not want cylinder 1 @ 1/2 - Cyl 2 @ 1/3 - Cylinder 4 @ 2/3rds and so forth. This is where a seasoned dealer comes in.

I believe if I'm not mistaken is remembering 9's as the size? So you want to see the shim selection in the 9mm size? Someone chime in if I have the 14's shims out-sized. So you either hunt for a lot of dealers with used shims or a dealer that stocks 9's?

So for this fine 'smooth tuning' you want that heat to pound cold valve with lots of water gap ~ Blueprintit ~ Dry it some for top end work brings a hotter valve. The next move is sync the different change in flow. Other than set the points... Oh shit I'm getting so old, I had a seen your condenser lately? And having your hands tied like forever, compression is your only adjustment. Think about that. Can't jet it, can't set the ign. And I mean right out of the crate, tune it.

Year done! And if that does not take the hum out of the bars and mirrors, blueprint the engine'$ balance even more.

Hub:

I'm grateful for your patience with me. I've understood your viewpoints, and advice. What I'd like to further ask you about is the "how to", and "what can I", negotiate with the dealer's service manager when I approach for a full service.

I'm asking because, tho I'm likely competent enough to do the job myself (and I really want to believe that and retain "control"), I have to consider how to keep the peace with the wife, because I get very upset at myself when I break stuff (or, things dont go as I want them to go), and I become hard on those around me. 40-60 hrs of my time to perform this service for the first time, with me becoming increasingly ill-behaved (and, beer does not fix this, in me), .vs a weekend of the cycle away at the dealer getting serviced for some cash-ola. I know where the bargain lies :)

So, if I'm the "by-the-book" service manager, attempting to have my service dept. be the income-stream I want it to be, I *think* I would look at the "in-spec" clearance tolerance, and consider "out of spec" tolerance to be "not in spec" by the book:

According to the Service Manual (pg 46, sect 2-23):
"Valve Clearance Standard:
Exhaust: 0.22 ~ 0.27 mm (0.0087 ~ 0.0106 in.)
Intake : 0.15 ~ 0.20 mm (0.0059 ~ 0.0079 in.)
"

(I know you know what these numbers are, but I wrote them here for clarity, (not insult).

Now, back to the original scenario for a moment. Let's say I've got *one* ex. valve at 0.20, and the rest are "in spec" tolerance at 0.225. (*just* within limit)

So, if I'm *That Service Manager*, I could / would tell my customers:

"Hey, one valve is "out of spec", at 0.20, and we're gonna fix that for ya.", and do no more.

Hub, what I think I've read from your reply above is that, you believe that a read of that same manual says that if those "in spec" tolearances are on the side of "2/3 empty", then the repair shop should reset them all to approximately the same clearance value/number...

So, here's what I'm asking: Is this the difference between a "good" repair shop, and a "technically correct" shop? That is, the "good" shop can be expected to reset valves that are technically already in spec (according to the limits shown in the service manual)?

Or, is there something else I'm missing? The "something else" I can think of being:
I'm not understanding / mis-intepreting the service manual guidance.
I'm not asking the service manager something I should be (and you probably know what is is, and I dont. You just know it because you've done it already so many times).
I'm not negotiating with the service manager correctly, bacause of the lack of understanding on my part.

Let me try to sum this up. I read your guidance (your replies) above, and I'm a bit confused about how to apply it.

What I think I read is that you believe, that the service manager will agree to reset valves that are technically within tolerance, just because he's a "good guy".

What I dont understand is, is he a good guy because he can be (to treat me well), or because I dont understand how his shop *has* to apply the service manual tolerances spec? (ie: 2/3 empty = considered out of spec = must put back in spec, preferrably around 2/3 "full").

Does this make any sense?

Hubster:

Never mind, I think I understand.

If the shop is going in for adjusting any of them for being out of tolerance, then make'em all 2/3 full, on my dime.

Yup, it's expensive at $10/shim. Yup, it'll be worth it.

Thanks for the help.

Bob

Just A quick update on my Valve Adjust project.

Can’t get the Fing parts … a few simple valve shims are unobtainium. 1st Bike Bandit says they have all the parts in stock so I order them online only to get an email saying 2 of the 4 shims are back ordered and they don’t know when they will come in. So I call the big box stealership Del Amo Motorsports and they tell me they can get the parts in 1 day. Soooooo … more than a week later and the dealer parts wiener calls today and tells me 2 of the 4 shims are back ordered and they are going to try and get them from someone else, wtf!! It gets better; they then ask me what size are the shims??? They are the Fing big Kawi dealer in LA.

This leads me to conclude that almost no one gets their valves adjusted at the stealerships in LA and even thought getting parts in a pain in the ass, I am so glad I decided to DIY because the stealership clearly don’t know what they are doing. Really amazing that in LA where there are lots of bikes, there are not shops or independents capable of doing basic maintenance tasks or supplying common parts.

I believe if I'm not mistaken is remembering 9's as the size? So you want to see the shim selection in the 9mm size? Someone chime in if I have the 14's shims out-sized.

Crude:

Did Hub describe the correct size?

Almost, the valve shims are 9.48 mm dia, the kawi dealer called them 9.5s so I guess that what these are known as. Into the 2nd week of trying to get parts ..... top of the engine apart and still waiting

Crude: Did you get your parts yet?

I'd bet that the service department has these shims sitting in a drawer on top of a shelf someplace. The parts department likely doesn't inventory such a item but the service department would.

These shims are the same size that Kawasaki has used for nearly 25 years. I'd go down to the local dealership and take the dimensions and part numbers that you need and get the service guys to dig through their drawers.

I had a similar situation when I adjusted the valves on my Honda CBX. My local Honda dealer said that they didn't want to fool with getting parts for such a old bike so I grabbed the service manager and asked him if he minded going through his shop and looking for shims. Sure enough, we found boxes of what I needed. Some shops will simply let you exchange the shims for the correct thickness.

I did try the service dept route but to no avail, the local place Del Ammo Motorsports is like the Wall Mart of bikes, quads and jet skis. The service dept manager said he couldn’t help me ….

I did finally get all the KHI original parts which include shims in .0005 mm increments, hey; I’m an ME and work in aerospace so I want what I want just perfect. It ended up taking over two weeks to get these parts. I got the shims in and the cams in no problem. Got the top all buttoned up, with an additional washer on all cover bolts. Thanks to Rooks guides and Hubs recommendation I used the GM engine sealer and so far so good. I added a new APE cam chain tensioner after I saw Rooks procedure for adjusting the factory original one!

But, I did screw up and put the rubber engine cover on upside down and didn’t realize it until I went to mount the fluid bottle and one of the tapped holes was covered ….oh well. So have not started her yet. Tonight I hope to disconnect everything, by far the biggest PIA in this job, pull the TBs, flip the rubber cover and get her back together. With a bit of luck I’ll report back tomorrow.

So tonight I finally got everything all put back together correctly and after a small bit of drama everything is fine.
When I started the bike there was a terrible racket, like I left an Allen Wrench under the valve cover … wtf over?

After thinking about it for a bit I suspected the cam chain. The APE install process is to insert the unit, rotate the engine while screwing in the tensioner post and then back if off ¼ turn when you feel contact with the chain ramp. What I did was stick a depth caliper in the mount hole and measured the distance to the ramp then set the APE to that distance and install. I started the bike again, turned in the APR tensioner about ¼ turn and the racket disappeared, issue resolved.

In the end, other than taking 3 weeks because it took 2 weeks to get parts I’m glad I did the work myself. I got to take all kinds of really cool stuff apart! I know a lot more about this bike and I’m totally intimidated to do the throttle body sync now. It will be kinda easy to hook up the sync tool and measure baseline data, but actually adjusting the pilot screws will be a bitch to impossible and I got the Motion Pro fancy right angle 2 ft long screw driver. Two of the screws look adjustable with a normal amount of cussing and wrench throwing but 1 looks hard to get at and the last one is impossible and is hidden behind several wire bundles and connectors. I hope measure, pull the TB’s out again, tweak a screws, re-install and repeat is not the way to get this done!

Sure would be nice to talk with someone who has done this a few time on a 14.

Cheers