Does anybody know if the stock injectors in the zx14 will support a map for e85 ? All the info I need is what size and type would be one step up from stock ? My cobra and my 5.0 both run on e85 and my tuner can map the bike he just does not know what the limitations are on the stock injectors. I would need roughly 20% more fuel. We are fairly certain the fuel pump will be ok. Like I said if no one knows at least someone might know from running a turbo or nitrous what one step bigger injectors would be and where they could be purchased. Thanks !!

Can't answer your question about injector size but if you have the time, I have a question or two.

Is E85 the same thing as E15? i.e.; 15% alcohol and 85% gasoline? Why would you want to run it? AMA is dead set against E15 without motorcycle specific testing. Is it 85% alcohol? Sorry to be so ignorant; looking for some education here, that's all.

Perhaps you and your tuner have more expertise that convinces you of its efficacy in newer bike engines and are "fairly certain" that it is harmless to the systems involved in its storage delivery and use? Accepting that to be the case for the sake of discussion, what is the desirable benefits of burning it?

Thanks for any clarification.

2006 = Most fpm of the 14 family I assume. I may be wrong. Size? Technically I do not know that either? Search for the color/body/letters/numbers/pin receiver design/spray hole numbers/spray design face/o-ring part number matches other injector. Or close enough and then AFR the header. The size I hear but cannot verify as fact, but this size has been said to be a 440cc size.

2008 = Again, technically can be swapped between years. Body style is the same. Pins clip up to other wire harness. Spray holes are different, where the '08 has 12 spray mist holes, the '06 has 10. This size I hear but again, cannot support if it's fact is this size is a 330cc size injector.

2010 = I have no clue? It all depends on color/letter/number to narrow it down.

2012/3R = The injector bodies look like ZX-10 injectors. EAT258 is for a 2013. EAT286 would be a number off of a ZX-10 injector. So if someone has a 2012R can look on the #1 injector body, if you see 258, then both use the same injector.

That's all the trivia I know so far.

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/9/2013 @ 8:08 PM *

Accepting that to be the case for the sake of discussion, what is the desirable benefits of burning it?

I think the theory goes, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy. I just think a little different. Anyway, the theory goes, 'you cannot create or destroy a corn kernel.' So you tell me the benefits is if I locked you in the bathroom, you ate a couple ears of corn, sat on the porcelain throne, letter rip, now you sit. Hold on, we are going to get to your bennies in a moment.

Okay, where were we? Oh yeah, so say your next seat at the throne the next day is you drank a glass of gas. Shithere for a moment. We don't want, well maybe we do want that urine smell and while that drink may have given you gas, forgive the pun, but do you sort of sea how a fish might survive chewing on corn, but swimming in gas may not be beneficial for the little fishy?

And is 85% alcohol going to kill the engine? Tuned right, no. If you took a pound of corn and a pound of gas, who has more energy? And if you need bigger jets for more corn to equal the power?

1. Forever abundant is corn.
2. Limited are the wells [do dry up] correct?
3. Corn makes more oxygen is the harness.
4. Corn pollutes less.
5. Oxygen has a lot of water.
6. Moon over my yam me is I can sea again is the bottom too!

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/9/2013 @ 8:45 PM *

"And is 85% alcohol going to kill the engine? Tuned right, no. If you took a pound of corn and a pound of gas, who has more energy? And if you need bigger jets for more corn to equal the power?"

Well, yeah that part makes sense. I know that tests I did with my vehicles, when the corn boosted gasoline first became available at a cheaper price for a higher octane level, showed a decrease in mileage that more than made up for the cost savings in price. I was paying 10% less for the E-10 and getting almost 20% less distance from each gallon! Avoided the stuff till I had no alternative at the pumps.

When you get that engine tuned right for 85% alcohol, what kind of rpm and power can it produce at what fuel cost?

I think the AMA is concerned about dumping the stuff on the market and bikers using it by accident in engines not tuned for it and also isn't there an issue with the effect of the alcohol on the plumbing/ delivery systems and some storage devices/fittings (tanks and gaskets)? I don't know the answers but..............

My main question was what benefit makes anyone want to use it in the first place; I know it (E-10) has made corn farmers where I grew up very comfortable if not rich beyond their imagination in recent years. I am also persuaded that ecologically it is a disaster because the energy it takes to produce it outweighs the return and leads to increased pollution over real oil based gasoline. Unless I personally had a source at a discount, I wouldn't want to buy it and even then I would be contributing to decreased air quality and increased thermal release; or so it would seem.

On a possibly related note, I had the enjoyment of converting a 65 Pontiac three deuce carb V-8 to run on propane waaaaaaay baaaaaaack in the late 60's and found that the vehicle ran smoother and the car demonstrated a higher top speed but the acceleration suffered and the mileage was poorer.

Ass to the shitter? LOL, don't know what that refers to or how to reply so I'll ass ume that the point is correct and leave it at that.

Cheers!

* Last updated by: PaulAB on 4/10/2013 @ 4:40 PM *

Ethanol is more tolerant of compression stress. A boosted engine fueled by ethanol exclusively can take advantage of very high boost pressures and realize greater returns than an equivalent gasoline fueled engine.

My main question was what benefit makes anyone want to use it in the first place;

e85 is an amazing fuel. Let's break down why:

It has more oxygen in it than gasoline, much more. This allows you to get more oxygen in the combustion chamber than you normally would. Even though this oxygen is bonded to the rest of the ethanol molecule before combustion, it's still burned in the cylinder, just like nitrous. The stoichiometric ratio of e85 is approximately 9.6:1 and gasoline's is approximately 14.7:1, so not only do you have more fuel to burn, but more oxygen, too! This is why most cars will make 15-20% more power on e85 than with even the highest octane race gasoline. (Chemically, the most power you could make would be 27% more than gasoline, but that's hard to reach due to other restrictions).

It reduces intake air temperatures four times more than gasoline when injected into the air fuel mixture at proper air-to-fuel ratios. This is because alcohol requires more energy to evaporate than gasoline does and you're also injecting about 35% more of it into the air fuel mixture than you are with gasoline. To prove this to yourself, imagine (or actually do it, safely!) dipping your fingers in gasoline and placing them in front of a fan. Your fingers would get pretty cold. Then imagine dipping your entire hand in alcohol and placing it in front of the same fan, it would get much, much colder.

e85 has an American octane rating of approximately 105, but the American test for octane rating (MON) uses a preheated air-fuel mixture at 300 degrees! This means that they inject e85 into the air and then heat that mixture to 300*F. This is why the commonly known octane rating of 105 is innacurate for e85. Preheating the air-fuel mixture doesn't accurately model intake temperatures that are so significantly lowered by e85 in real world applications. Because of the heat-lowering effectiveness of e85, it's more accurate octane rating is between 112 and 118. Because of this you can run higher compression, more boost, or both!

It burns faster than gasoline. At a 1:1 air fuel ratio, gasoline burns at 26cm/sec and ethanol burns at 41cm/sec. As you lean the air-to-fuel ratio, Ethanol continues to burn faster than gasoline. This is a major advantage over gasoline because it allows you to use more retarded ignition timing while still extracting maximum power out of the fuel. Retarded ignition timing is good because it allows you start the powerstroke later and harness the mechanical advantage the rod has on the crank as it's tilted rather than directly above crank. This also significantly reduces the shock the piston, rod and crank experience when the explosion happens before or during top dead center.

In our cars it lowers oil and water temperature about 15*F and exhaust gas temperatures by 200*F! A colder engine is a longer lasting one!

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/10/2013 @ 6:22 PM *

Study finds that environmental impact of corn-ethanol E85 is 23% to 33% higher than that of gasoline; environmental problem-shifting
16 March 2012

When 12 different environmental impacts and the regional differences among 19 corn-growing states are taken into consideration, E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) blends made with corn ethanol from dry mills show a worse total environmental impact than gasoline, according to a new study by a team from the Universities of Minnesota, Troyes (France), and California, Santa Barbara.

In a paper published in the ACS journal Environmental Science & Technology, the authors reported that if the impacts are aggregated using weights developed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), overall, E85 generates approximately 6% to 108% (23% on average) greater impact compared with gasoline, depending on where corn is produced, primarily because corn production induces significant eutrophication impacts and requires intensive irrigation. If greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from indirect land use (iLUC) changes are included in the analysis, the differences increase to between 16% and 118% (33% on average).

whole article

* Last updated by: alg8er on 4/10/2013 @ 9:43 PM *

A guy I know has an LSR-type racer with a big-bore kit and bored throttle bodies that has run 219 mph. He runs E85, but the motor ingests a prodigious amount on each run. So yes, it is possible to run E85, but it's not real feasible on the street.

Romans,alg8er,Danno:

Thanks for the replies!

alg8er info confirms what I had read elsewhere and Roman's physics and chemistry is clear and explicit. So, Danno, I would guess only blown applications are of overriding merit and certainly not a choice for the "eco-conservatives".

That temperature differential tween input and exhaust is indeed significant in the application and I fully appreciate that.

Happy OH powered trails and dreams to you all and thanks for the free education.

E85 has a higher stoich so it burns faster than gas , so in turn it uses more fuel to go the same distance . I stated in my first post that it is usually about 20% more but can be a touch higher in some applications. It's new to the motorcycle world but as far as it being feasible on the street it's being done anywhere where it is available at the pump. Most tuners for cars have the know how to tune for e85 if its available to you. What they claim at the pump is that it is a minimum of 70% ethanol. Different blends at different times of year not to exceed 85% although anything higher is better. The simplest way to explain it for everybody to understand is if you have an engine that will detonate with a certain degree of timing (spark knock) e85 will let you go past that point and then some. I have been able to run so much spark advance that the engine will actually lose power then we back it back off a couple degrees. E85 also runs considerably cooler as well so cylinder temps stay way down. Race gas is very expensive !! Even leaded 110 from Sunoco is around $6.75 a gallon. I just purchased e85 from a speedway gas station for $2.82 !!!! So even though I will burn 20-25% more fuel its cheaper than 87 octane and I can squeeze every last drop of performance out of my engine and be safer than $7 dollar a gallon race fuel because my engine runs cooler as well.
Now everybody is gonna say "why isn't everybody running it" ?????
1.lack of availability (this is by far the biggest reason)
2.access to someone who can write tunes for e85
3.they just don't know about it

This fuel is very street friendly If you have pumps in your area , just think of all the vehicles that say FLEX FUEl on their bumper !!! E85 mixes perfectly with pump gas obviously , I've had a tank of e85 in ran it down low and not had access to an e85 pump and pulled in filled up on 93 , plugged my Sct handheld tuner in and swapped my tune (takes 100 seconds) and started my car and drove off no problem.
You will gain horsepower even if you don't touch the timing but obviously if your paying for a map or tune you would want the most you can get.