Hi all

further to my "catalytic convertor" thread concerning my 08 ZX 14, I am now wondering about the secondary exhaust ports and their effect on skewing the readings of an exhaust gas analyzer.

the 06/07 models has secondary air exhaust ports feeding fresh air to the exhaust leaving the head, and supposedly helping further burn/lean out the exhaust before it got to the two catalytic convertors, one in each muffler.

for 08 Kawasaki added a third Catalytic convertor, situated in the collector, made the collector 75% larger in diameter, and increased the size of the secondary air exhaust ports by a further 20%. I am guessing the larger air exhaust ports were to try and help out in reducing the load on the new third cat so much closer to the exhaust ports, by leaning out the exhaust as much as possible before the exhaust hit the cats.

having now removed all three catalytic convertors on my 08, and installed an O2 bung in the collector for the autotuner, it seems to me that mapping for a particular air/fuel ratio using the O2 sensor and the autotuner is STILL dealing with false, artificially lean, exhaust data, arising from the fresh air added to the exhaust by the secondary air exhaust ports. That HAS to be the case, if Kawasaki has taken the trouble to enlarge the size of the secondary air exhaust ports for the 08 model year......

it appears I am still not going to get accurate air fuel readings even from a wide band O2 sensor in the collector, cats removed, unless the effect of the secondary air exhaust ports are either taken into account somehow, or the secondary air exhaust posts are plugged/closed off somehow.

does anyone know how much impact the secondary air exhaust ports have on the exhaust gas mixture reading downstream? Is there a "cheater" factor I can use in setting a fuel/air mixture, say setting the fuel/air ratio a few ticks richer from optimum calculated to take into account the effect of the adding of fresh air to the exhaust stream before the exhaust gets to the O2 sensor?

or has anyone closed off the secondary exhaust ports, if so how, and what was the result? Is there any downside to plugging the secondary air exhaust port? (other than increased emissions?)

Thanks

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 8/27/2009 @ 1:16 PM *

and if there was any doubt as to the level of my ignorance, here goes.....

looking at the 06/07 manual, what I see shown on the cylinder head is a "Clean Air" system including an air suction valve (a pair of reed valves) and an air switching valve, vacuum operated.

is that set of air suction valves the system for feeding fresh air into the exhaust as it leaves the engine, or is it essentially a crank case pressure control system? I haven't taken one of these motors apart yet to have a look.

Paul

I don't know-BUT....how did you remove the cat from the collector?(seriously).

The PAIR system works with the TPs and the IAP sensors. It has no loop to the crankcase being it draws fresh air, not crankcase air.

Hi Hub

bottom line, can I plug the so called "clean air system" in the head without casuing any problems in other systems, other than slightly increased emissions?

Hi blue07

the stock 08 collector is made of fairly thick 400 series stainless steel, and already has a stamped/raised mounting point for an O2 bung, all you have to do is drill the hole and weld the bung on, which I was originally going to have a specialty welder do before I fgured out exactly what the header/collecotr material was. Once I figured out it has to be 400 series stainless, rather than using the mild steel bung that came with the autotune (although mild steel can be welded to 400 stainless) I bought a stainlesss steel bung for $6 from the local auto speed shop, so I could weld stainless to stainless. Then "while I was at it", I used a bandsaw to cut the collector in half just behind the raised boss for the O2 bung. Before cutting I marked several reference lines so I could put it back together in correct orientation. Then I ground out the four external tack welds that hold the cat in place, and the cat came out fairly easily, in one piece, through the cut in half front opening in the back half of the collector. Odd looking thing, very heavy for its size, and very dense, it has to be interfering with flow. Then I trimmed up inside the collector, particularly the internal divider that I found, welded the two halves of the collector back together, and welded closed the four plug holes that had been used to tack weld the cat in place. Wasn't hard to do a much better job with the welding than the factory crappy job.

the collector is still over at the coaters, being titanium ceramic coated, I'll shoot a few photos of the finished collector and the removed cat when I get the collector/header back.

Cutting the collector, removing the cat, welding in the bung, welding the collector halves back together, and plug welding the four holes where the cat had been tacked, took me about an hour and 15 minutes, start to finish, at home in my rather well equipped garage, so if you were to pay a reasonably skilled specialty welder to do the welding after you cut the header in half and took out the cat yourself, shouldn't be more than about $100 or so. I have tig, mig, and stick at home, ozy/acetylene, bead blasting cabinet, etc., etc., as I restore old Italian motorycles to fairly high standards as a long time hobby. I have fairly good amateur welding skills and can do strainless, aluminum, etc.

I have read posts about people indicating they removed the cat from the 08 collector by bashing it to pieces using drills, punches, rods, etc through the two openings for the mid pipe connection, I can't imagine how much bashing and fiddling and time that would take, I would guess it would take several hours, the cat is a substantial constructionm and I am not convinced doing it that way would even get it all out in any event, particualarly its heavy/thick outer shell which is welded in place in four spots.

Paul

Here is what you do... "For Racing Purposes only":

You know under the frame right by the throttle body, you will see the fresh air hose take from the ram chamber down to the "T" of the PAIR. You will see a switch that lets the air in at that T hose in the center, on top of the front of the valve cover.

Now, you can either place a few balls into the ends of the hoses and then tie them back onto the port/valve cover receivers. Or... Make a few plates with the band saw or whatever you are cutting metal with; remove the port receivers (for lack of a better word like, hose nipples), off the valve cover. Then, cutout a paper gasket(s) for the plates you made. Remove the reed valve or keep them in so you do not burn the paper gasket up from the flame coming back up the reed area.

As far as removing the PAIR's electric air gate, I do not know if this will set a code? Others might chime in, say they did remove the air trigger box and no codes are present. Then, you are good to go by removing the electrics and hoses altogether and are left with making the plate covers.

Find a rubber plug and close off the ram hole. This hole is after the air cleaner. So, you know that means unfiltered dirt right down the engine if you do not shut her down. Without the PAIR in play; without the cats; you might sniff that one spent cylinder as it's true fuel ratio you are looking for so the 02 can adjust.

thanks very much, Hub

very valuable information for me, and absolutely "For Racing Purposes Only: not to be used on the street.

I just picked up the titanium coated header/collector from the coaters. Kind of an ugly colour, but what the hell, if it acts as a thermal barrier to 1,800 F as promised, should drop the exhaust heat considerably and hopefully lessen some of the load on the cooling system as well. Also picked up some "Engine Ice" to replace the existing factory coolant with when I drain the rad to change the headers out.

Paul

Hey laverda1200,
seems like you got the answer to your question but I'm not sure. I'm looking at the question from another viewpoint. If you put on an AutoTune system it is using readings from the antichamber in the collector before the cat. The readings willbe affected by the air being added by the secondary air exhaust system. So...does everyone who puts an AutoTune system on their bike need to plug/remove the secondary air? If that secondary air is only for the benefit of the cat then without a cat you're almost obliged to remove it. If you don't remove the cat, the cat will be damaged without the secondary air. (I read that somewhere.) I'm thinking of leaving the cat in the headder. Here in Calif. there are fines and penalties for removing "smog" equipment. I'm not really paranoid but that sort of thing could get very expensive. Not just the fines but you'd also have to reinstall all the stock parts again. Since my desire is not to wring every bit of power out of the engine, but just to have smooth performance with some aftermarket pipes, then it would be best for me to leave the cat. So the bottom line question is HOW MUCH does the secondary air effect the readings of the O2 sensor?? 2%....5%...more? How significant would it be?
I don't suppose there is an answer to this question. I'd like to hear someone say..."I didn't block off the secondary air and my AutoTune seems to work fine." That would be enough.
When you get that new coated headder on, let us know if you burn your hand when you touch it.

Sharkey

* Last updated by: Sharkey on 9/2/2009 @ 6:35 PM *

Shark, think about this. Cars have the same air chamber that dumps air into the system and that is before the 02. You have a pre-02 and a post-02 sensor down the muffler system. Would you not think that the post-02 took that cat into consideration?

So, don't you think that the cat is irrelevant, the fresh air is irrelevant as a pre-cat? You are going to bung the header before the cat, are you not? The final wet/dry splash upon the 02 after the fresh air will still be a flame front heading down the pipe before it reaches the 02.

Every move you make, you will change a few variables. You shut down the PAIR, then you read the 02 and adjust the map that way. You leave the PAIR in play, you remap for that variable. You read no cat after you pulled it out and bunged over it, there is one variable as there is a post-02 is after the cat if you left it in, then you are reading a different fuel trim.

After all those variables, how much of a fuel trim are you really going to go whole hog out on or is it so subtle, the 02 compensates either way plus/minus .0v to 5.0volts. Are we still in range no matter the bung location in that 10th of a volt read being stuck in the 0-5v range? I think so.

OK thanks Hub - For some reason I was picturing all this unburned O2 running down the headder pipes. Having this forum for reference is making me lazy. Otherwise I would read the engine schematics and see what I'm looking for.

Hi Sharkey

well, when I pphoned DynoJet again, this time to ask about the clean air system, I was basically told, "of course you should plug it, in fact, read our directions which say exactly that....."

the DynoJet guy wasn't prepared to comment on what effect plugging the clean air system would or would not have on the cat if still in place, but did say leaving the clean air system operational would skew the autotune readings, but again wouldn't/couldn't say how much.

for the titanium ceramic coatings, I have now personally tested, and yes you can touch the header with your bare hand with the engine running without burning yourself, I just wouldn't care to leave my hand on there very long : - ) and the bike had only been idling for a minute or two. Anyway, noticeable decrease in heat shed by the header, and I have now also installed "Engine Ice" to try and get the best cooling result possible.

I have a dyno tuning session booked for the early evening of September 10, will report back on results, starting with a fuelmoto pre-installed map in the PC 5 for a pair of Yosh R77 slip ons, but map not taking into account cat removed from header. My first dyno runs on this bike, unfortunately on a different dyno, gave something like 159.8 hp at the rear wheel, and 99.8 or so for peak torque, bone stock.

Paul

I plugged mine at the valve cover (no block off plate,left everything in valve cover) yanked out All the hoses etc. plugged the hole in the air box. Got custom map. Never throws a code.

Good info skiffman. Always nice to see a real answer.
Laverda, You had a dyno session on the 10th? You'll have to give updates. I started a thread asking people with AutoTune installed to share their findings. It's time to get some first hand information about this product.
I've done the same thing to my headder as you did. It's at the powder coater right now. In the interum I installed a headder from an 06 bike. I figured I could use a map from an 06 or 07 model in order to compensate for the now missing cat. The 08 map for slip ons assumes the cat is there. Basically all the maps for the 08 from DJ were awful with my change. I have Muzzy slip ons so I contacted Muzzy. They sent me a map called Muzzy full system. It's not the same as the one for M10s. It runs great with this map, except for backfire. I'll be plugging the PAIR system very soon.
So anyway how about reporting your developments on the AutoTune on the other thread?
Best of luck....