I had the opportunity to take a run up 'n down a local mountain.

I noticed that my cycle wanted to "cant" to the right when my arms were off the steering (with the throttle locked to a set speed), instead of going straight ahead.

When I bought the cycle, I inspected the chain and it was not centered on the rear sprocket. I then asked the service manager if he would "fix" this detail and center up the chain on the sprocket. He indicated this was correct, and proceeded to oblige me.

But, after about 30 minutes, he came back and pronounced that he was unable to do this. When he attempted to center the chain on the sprocket, the rear wheel would then be out of alignment by a substantial amount (approx difference between right and left side guide was 1/2 of distance between two guide lines). He also tried centering up the rear wheel on the same two guide lines, but then the chain was somewhat strongly pulled to one side of the sprocket. Nothing he could do would center the rear tire on the cycle center-line (using the same, equal, guide line on either side), and at the same time, adjust the chain so to center that up on the rear sprocket.

The best he could do was a compromise: Reduce the non-centered-ness of the chain so that it was not severely pulled to one side on the sprocket, and at the same time, set the rear tire so that it was also not centered, but now mis-aligned from centerline.

So, now I strongly suspect that this is the reason for the cycle doing this "cant" when it should go straight.

My opinion is, the chain should be centered on the rear sprocket (and the service manager tacitly agreed), but I find no such instructions in the service manual. I read it pretty closely, and I see inspections for stretch, and for "tight-ness", but none for centering. I also see inspections for centering the rear tire on the guides (and warnings are given if this is not done).

So, now I wonder if I have a warranty claim for service or not, against the chain pulling to one side on the sprocket, if the tire is centered.

What do you guys think?

From your post you indicate that you are not the original owner? So I offer the follow:

Bent or misaligned rear swing arm?
Non factory sprockets, spacers, etc?

Spyglass

Well...this to me sounds...very odd.I've been using the hash marks for years...NEVER had a weird rubbing chain on a sprocket.I'm not sure what you mean by centered.IS the sprocket a 530?And the chain...the same?It will have a bit of spaceon either side at any given time because it's not supposed to be tight against the teeth on the sides(the inside roller area and inside plate side) there.It will move back and forth just a bit.As to the bike inherently 'leaning' to the right.EVERY one of my Kawis did(do) this.My zzr,my zx12,my zx14,and my 14R...it's not pulling...it's a balance thing.(IMO)...I just weight the left side peg just a smidgen to set er back balanced again...and she stays perfectly straight and vertical until my weight shifts again.I think it's the motor doing it.OR..the caliper on the rear is weighting he right side of the bike just enough to cause this.IDK...I know what you're talking about though...and I seriously don't think it's final drive related at all.I can set my throttlemiester...at any speed...remove my hands...and virtually EVERYTIME...she'll lean to the right...not turn...but lean lightly.I just reposition myself and focus on RELAXING on the seat and all...sometimes holding the tank at the back top sides there...and that will balance her nicely.When I begin to 'tense up'...she'll lean like that.IDK what it is.Never was a problem however.It'll lean left as well if I get my body position just off center there a tad...yup...same deal.Unnoticeable amounts of body weight not being centered straight along the bike's axis...that's all it is.

Line yer hash marks up....make sure your spacers are in there...she's most likely fine.If you're seeing wear marks on either side of the teeth tips or anywhere there...then the wheel is misaligned for sure.But if you're seeing normal wear...you wheel IS fine...lined up okay...and your hash marks should confirm this...by looking straight through the axle...and noting the hash mark...then going to the other side...look through the axle(get that light circle centered)and check the mark....If they're both at the same spot..you wheel is FINE.And you chain alignment is fine.

"So, now I wonder if I have a warranty claim for service or not, against the chain pulling to one side on the sprocket"...no.You do NOT have a warranty claim.It won't PULL to one side or the other...it'll WEAR on one side or the other(of the teeth)...if the wheel isn't equal on both sides.It HAS to be IF those marks are equal.The teeth do not fit the links between the inside of the plate purposely.They HAVE to be able to move a tiny bit for wear reasons.Otherwise...the plates would just grind the teeth off(on the sides) like no tomorrow..not to mention the heat that would be generated from that.Sounds like your chain is fine...and your sprocket is fine.These acrobatics your mechanic is doing is completely not necessary.It's a very simple adjustment...the axle alignment.

"But, after about 30 minutes, he came back and pronounced that he was unable to do this"...correct...it won't happen.It's made to move a tiny bit side to side.

Check your hash marks...and check your sprocket teeth wear pattern...that will tell you all you need to know.If you hash marks are aligned...the sprocket will be fine.

The ONLY way it could be messing up and actually STAYING rubbing on one side of the sprocket...would be IF the spacers were not on the correct sides.Bu since I've never actually replaced the spacers in wrong...and tightened the whole thing down...I can't say for sure that even THAT would move the sprocket off center where it is with the spacers in there correctly.I honestly don't know if you COULD tighten everything up with them in there on the wrong sides?I suppose you might be able to?One IS longer than the other...goes in deeper than the other...so...IDK.The distance from the hub and the inside of the spacer flange I think is actually the same on both sides...regardless of which goes where...but,if the part that goes into the hib somehow was not going far enough in...THEN...you could have a sprocket 'off center' of what it should be by that amount?Maybe that's what's going on?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/26/2012 @ 11:58 PM *

Aligning the wheels will tell you if something's off from the swingarm pivot to the rear axle. Hash marks are not always true and aligning the sprockets doesn't always align the wheels. If everything is right, both should happen at once, but due to accidents and/or production tolerances, this isn't always the case.

My method for wheel alignment is to use two long straightedges. Set them up as high on the wheels as possible. Measure to the rear rim and get front and back measurements the same on both sides. Then you have to go back and forth adjusting the rear and turning the front until all four measurements to the front rim are equal and are 50% of the difference between the rim widths more than the four measurements at the rear. At that point, the wheels are in line and the chain can be adjusted for tension by turning both adjusters equal amounts (I use the bolt flats) in or out. If, after having done this, the sprockets are not aligned (chain isn't centered) you have other issues.You'd be surprised how far off the hash marks can be.

* Last updated by: Danno on 8/27/2012 @ 5:46 AM *

Grn14:

IS the sprocket a 530?And the chain...the same?

Yes, and yes. OEM parts.

I'll look for the spacers... I've had the cycle serviced all of one time, by some gray haired guys in the back, at the dealer. I suppose they could have forgotten about the spacers, (put them in wrong) *but* I've had this issue since purchase. *I* think the sprocket is mis-aligned to the output shaft, and now I've got some info that suggests what might be the reason (something I can to go to the dealer service mgr with), which is: the spacers, which you've described (above). Thanks!

It will have a bit of spaceon either side at any given time because it's not supposed to be tight against the teeth on the sides(the inside roller area and inside plate side) there.

I agree, it should be this way. But, the chain is always "hard" to one side of the sprocket, and never moves away from that side. I'll look for sprocket wear, but I would rather the dealer fix it before it's prematurely worn. ...and fix it under warranty. So, I get the idea of how things should be, thanks.

The balance thing, that interesting info. It's exactly as you've described, for me too. Guess I wont blame the wheel misalignment yet.

@Spyglass:

I'm the original owner, but thanks. No damage, never been down. I suppose it could have been bent during shipment...

@Danno:

Thanks Danno. This is a big help. I'll make this check before running to the dealer service mgr. (if indeed I need to after I'm done).

Measure to the rear rim and get front and back measurements the same on both sides.

What's the "from" reference point?

Actually, I'm having difficulty with the service description above. Is this procedure in the service manual? Is there another online resource (link) that shows some pictures of what's going on? I'm certain I can do it, but I'm not clear yet on the procedures...

Did you check the front sprocket?See if that's where it should be...or worn any?It really can't misalign with that nut on there...but the teeth could have some wear...This is odd with a 2012 doing this.IDK...sounds odd anyway...If nothing's been removed...like that rear wheel...IDK HOW it could get off like that.You don't suppose MAYBE the rear sprocket has somehow warped and caused some runout?IDK...maybe just make sure it's true like ya would with a wheel rim.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/27/2012 @ 1:17 PM *

"but I find no such instructions in the service manual". That's because it sits where it sits,everything good if the parts and alignments are correct.....but rubbing on one side exclusively isn't okay.It shouldn't be doing that.You're gonna see wear marks on whatever side it's hitting on.Anything like that happening?If not....maybe it's okay afterall.Just a thought.

Can you get it up on a rear stand and check the wheel rotation drag?The chain position may actually be okay...long as it's not grinding off the sprocket or binding the wheel itself.I still say line up the hash marks.Start there and check your wheel rotation for binding and noise.You shouldn't have to align this bike now...I can't see that.I'd be more suspect of the rear sprocket itself...having a small amount of equal runout...though I don't know HOW that could occur.

I know this is far fetched...maybe impossible...but...is it possible the motor is somehow 'off' to one side 'just a fraction of an inch where it shouldn't be?IDK if that could happen....maybe misaligned somehow when they tightened up the frame /engine mounts or something?I guess if there was a washer(s) missing or something it conceivably could be off?Definitely a 'long shot'.But ya never know...some of em had loose bracket bolts that actually fell out.That's some serious stuff right there.Those assemblers are just people also...they aint perfect.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/27/2012 @ 1:37 PM *

Hey Mebgardner,

Nice you can at least rule out abuse, being the original owner.

I think the first thing you need to determine is that the frame and swing arm are true. Then move on to the rear wheel, spacers, sprocket, and dampener assembly. Then front sprocket and spacer. Check to make sure your chain is not bent (does it lay straight if you open the master link and lay it along a straight edge) Is your rear sprocket warped (they actually mention this in the service manual so it does happen, and if your wheel alignment was been out for a while I would think your rear sprocket has probably suffered, easy to check if you take it off and lay it on a flat surface). I can see 2 new sprockets and a chain in your future.

You can see that there are enough piece in the puzzle to introduce an alignment issue of not assembled correctly.

Good Luck and hopefully it is a cheap and painless fix.

Spyglass

What's the "from" reference point?
Actually, I'm having difficulty with the service description above. Is this procedure in the service manual? Is there another online resource (link) that shows some pictures of what's going on? I'm certain I can do it, but I'm not clear yet on the procedures...

Imagine the two straightedges held tight against the rear tire as high as they will go. Center of the axle would be ideal, but that's not possible. Then, measure to the flat vertical section of the edge of the rim front and back on both sides. If all 4 measurements are the same, you're ready to start. If not, you need to do something to make them all the same. Usually the tire is good enough to make this happen, but not always, so you have to check. Then, turn the front wheel until it's parallel to one of the straightedges. Check the front and back measurements on that side to be sure and then look at the same two measurements on the other side. If both sides measure the same (again to the flat, vertical part of the outer rim) then you're golden. If the two sides are different, you need to move one side of the rear wheel and check again until all four on the front are the same and the number is equal to the back measurements + 50% of the difference in wheel widths.

@Danno:

OK, thank. That's clear, got it.

@EricR:

Nope, I've never seen anything like that tool before. Did you buy that to investigate some similar issue? I own a bunch of tools, but usually they wind up in my garage because I needed it.

Yeah, mine rests on the inner side of rear sprocket, but hard up against it..

@Grn:

I did have it up on a rear lift this weekend, doing chain clean 'n lube. I checked the drag, nothing out of the ordinary. No grinding, no binding. I tried to center the chain up on the sprocket. The service manager told me, when I first showed it to him (at purchase time), he said "Dont worry, it'll center as it gets broke in." I believed him, he's the expert... 2500 miles later, it's no better. So, I tried to center it on the sprocket by adjusting the rear wheel centerline, using the hash marks. It went just like the service mgr described it, when he tried it. I centerlined the rear tire looking at the (not reliable, I get it) hash marks. Much worse chain alignment than I started with, so I put all the adjustments back where I started.

Anyway, I inspected for unusual wear on the chain and sprocket. I did not see any, but figured 2500 miles wont make alot of wear.

@spyglass:

Yup, there's a bunch of points to cause this issue.

Well fellas, I'll try the easy stuff you've kindly suggested. I'm not taking this thing apart to perform the detailed checks. It goes for (possibly warranty) service for that. I'm trying to get a feel for how concerned I should be about this. I'm thinkin' as long as I dont see abby-normal wear, and there's no bumpin' and grindin' goin' on, then mebbe... mebbe I let this go. IDK.

I can do the alignment checks given here, that I can and will do...

Thanks, guys!

Ya...I think it's okay actually.But I'm not there...so....

I went out just now and looked at my spacers.Okay...the right one is about a 1/8 inch or maybe a shade more 'space' between the collar "under flange",and the hub.The left side is quite a bit closer to the hub...visually...you can see it's sitting closer(the underflange).This tells me IF those spacers could possibly(and they could) get reversed...wrong side...that the sprocket would effectively move to the right.And you say the chain is 'riding' against which side of the sprocket tooth surface?I don't however know IF it would be possible to tighten the axle nut....and have that caliper aligned 'enough' on there to not cause rubbing from the pads.It could be.There IS a 'backout' distance to those pads in there.It may be possible to install the spacers wrong..and still have the wheel roll without binding...IDK for sure.I'd check those spacers FIRST.Before anything else.The distance to the hub with those sounds about like the 'distance' the chain is riding against the sprocket(meaning...'not lined up').The right one is the longer one...the left,the shorter barreled one.(I think)...you can definitely tell by looking at that diagram...HOWEVER..that one above isn't showing the spacer configurations.The spacer diagram is on page 10-2 of the service manual.Showing the right and left axle/bearing/spacer deal.I can't actually tell which spacer is 'longer'...but you can see the flanges are definitely different.If I had to guess...I think the right spacer is the longer one.Pg 10-8 shows the installed spacers...HOWEVER...the right side one is appearing bigger in diameter because the pic is a blow up of the sensor ring.If you 'scale' it down...to the actual size compared to the sprocket pic...the diameter is the same.It could be deceiving a bit.I think your spacers are in the wrong sides.EASY mistake for a mech to do if he hasn't worked on a lot of 14's.They fall out when tire change time comes..and the guy will 'sometimes' find the spacer and just think they're both the same.They're NOT.

In the earlier 14 manuals...you CAN actually tell which one is longer....though it's very subtle in the diagram.I wish I could remember which side is the longer one...sorry.I think the right side is.

And yes...for sure...IF the chain was rubbing on that sprocket,you would see wear on one side or the other depending....way before 2500 miles.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/27/2012 @ 11:52 PM *

@Grn:

{QUOTE] you say the chain is 'riding' against which side of the sprocket tooth surface? [/QUOTE]

The right side, just like would happen if what you suspect is true...

@EricR:

I bought that tool today, from MotorcycleSupersports.com. Oh Look, A have a need for another tool... Funny, my wife says I dont need anymore, I'm already such a "tool". :) Luckily, she was smiling when she said it.

I think I'm reading that you and Grn disagree about the collars being able to be re-assembled incorrectly, He says yup, possible, EricR says Not Possible.

It's OK. I'll make the three easy checks: wheel alignment a-la Danno's straight edge / string instructions, collar inspections voila Grn's excellent instructions (and another inspection for excessive sprocket wear) , and then the sprocket alignment when the wiz-bang new tool shows up. I'm pretty sure I'll learn something.

If I learn that all appears to be OK from these simple checks, I'll probably follow EricR's good advice:

Don't adjust it to be too tight
Keep it well lubed
Listen for unusual noises
Ride the bike
Don't worry.

Thanks very much Guys, I'm grateful for your help.

* Last updated by: mebgardner on 8/28/2012 @ 9:25 PM *

"If I remember correctly, it is not possible to put the outer spacer collars on incorrectly"...I know I did put em in on the wrong sides...once...on my 07....I think I snugged the whole deal down (but not tightened)before I realized something wasn't right...I mean...I remembered that the manual said something about em...So I checked...to make sure they were on the correct sides...which...they weren't.The diameters are the same for both.They will fit in there.

Yes.Possibly enough to move the wheel out of alignment...that would cause a chain centering problem.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/29/2012 @ 8:47 AM *

That's a good pic there..he should be able to immediately determine if they are in wrong....nice!I DO think that caliper would actually go back on there...and the pads would only get pushed in farther on the one side of the disc,while the others came out farther against the disc to compensate...so there MAY actually be no 'binding' at all?IDK.The length distance is NOT very much...but it could be enough to throw that sprocket out of correct alignment.I don't know how far the collars go in...but they stop at the bearing races(and the seals slip over the collar barrel end)...if so...then that wheel would be off center...if only a small amount.Maybe the amount he's having an alignment deal with?It does look like that's what's happening to me.

"Wouldn't the brake rotor be impossible to fit in the caliper if there was a mix up"...I don't think so...not being off only a couple of mm's.Those pads as you know CAN be pushed back into the pistons...so a disc on there would basically be doing the same thing...just a bit offset as you say.The brakes would still work...probably wouldn't even notice anything...EXCEPT...a possible brake pedal change in feel.They already slightly ride against the rotor as it is...you really don't feel that.And if you take your wheel off...you know they come in closer,without any problem.Only when the pedal's applied do they grab.

I would have to say...that the engineers purposely made that right side collar flange to be flush with the brake caliper axle mount just so there wouldn't be any confusion about which collar goes where.Very easy to immediately notice if wrong.Seeing they ARE different depths.THAT is the critical part.Wheel alignment.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/29/2012 @ 1:45 PM *

"Did you mean that the bike pulls to the right? Most roads are built with a slight rise at the center, dropping slightly towards the shoulder. That "crown" in the road is to ensure drainage of rainwater. (huge disclaimer here) All most every vehicle I've owned would pull slightly to the right in certain conditions."

Yup...that's a very good point..one that gets overlooked a lot.I've done this with my bikes...set the throttlemiester,and ride hands off.Invariably they lean to the right...initially.Pretty sure this is what he's talking about.I then got on the 'other' side of the lane...same lane...just a 'flatter' spot....the bike stayed straight vertical.This isn't something new to these 14's.I say it doesn't HAVE to be the road surface(it 'could' be a misaligned frame or whatever,not discounting that at all)...but mine displays this on almost every road I ride on...sometimes you can actually see the camber....othertimes...it looks flat...but isn't.All my Kawasakis did this.None of their frames were out of alignment...or the wheels.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/29/2012 @ 2:20 PM *

@EricR:

I hope the pictures of the spacers will help you determine if your bike's assembled correctly!

You've been big help, Eric. Really, I cant thank you enough. The pictures are huge help. OK, how about... Thanks!

After re-reading the original post, I have to ask.... mebgardner, what did you mean by...?

"I noticed that my cycle wanted to "cant" to the right when my arms were off the steering (with the throttle locked to a set speed), instead of going straight ahead."

Did you mean that the bike pulls to the right?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, and it's identical to what Grn described above, a couple replies into this thread. He has this happen too, apparently, and with more than one Kawa cycle. I'll add that it not "road crown" related. It's very slight, easily compensated for, but makes me keep paying attention to the road and the cycle when I let go of the steering.

Now, I'm gonna take the pictures, and tools, and wait for the garage to cool off (and daytime play / non-work hours). It's 140+ in there, in the day. At night, the night hunters come out. I can keep out tarantula, and rattlesnake, and packrat. But, the scorpions and black widow come out too. We have all of these, where I live, in my part of (the edge of) town. It keeps me outta the garage most nites... (as an aside, last week. a tarantual big as / bigger than my hand, right on the garage back door knob. No kidding, it was full grown adult *up on* my door, stalking a cricket.)

@Grn:

You, too, fella. Big help. Huge. See, you did some good sticking around after all. I knew your copy of the manual would come in handy some day :) Thank you, too.

...and Guys, yes, it's been civil, and adult, and very enjoyable. Kinda like a breath of fresh air...

Your welcome Meb.I hate gettin surprised by black widows and such...geez...No offense...but you can keep the desert!Beautiful...ya...but deadly baby.!

"black Bears"...shi&...get a momma and her cubs...aint no fun an games then!Grizzez up here...they don't play either.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/29/2012 @ 8:56 PM *

^^^^ Grizzez don't play?

I just read an article aboot a grizzly playing and cavorting for an amateur photog in Denali.
I think it even played WITH the photog.

I can't remember the name of the game though. Something like, "let's see how much of you can fit inside me"?

Or did I see that on Skinemax?

* Last updated by: hagrid on 8/29/2012 @ 10:26 PM *

That's wrong....that's just wrong .

I inspected the front to rear wheel alignment, and found that the hash marks on the swingarm are indeed accurate, for this unit. They were out of alignment, on purpose, from the dealer service (see 1st part of this thread, above).

Turns out, they (the rear wheel guides .vs. swingarm hash marks) dont need to be out of alignment. I made the alignment using the straight edge method, and found that the front to rear alignment does line up pretty well with the hash marks (both right and left sides come pretty close to being the same "depth", to the same mark). I got the back wheel to "point straight" to within 1/8 inch as measured at the front wheel side-to-side, close enough for me. This is the first time I've done this, and it took me about two hours to get everything lined up, chain tensioned correctly, and triple checked to be correct before and after tightening it all down. I used standing uprights to pull the string taught, and to keep it in place while I eyeballed down the length of it.

Collar and spacer inspections appear as in the pictures, above. No differences from what I see in the pictures.

So, bottom line, now the chain is still hard-over to the right side of the sprocket (right side of chain contacting the right side of sprocket, daylight seen down through left side of chain to left side of sprocket), but I checked for sprocket wear and there's none that I can see. I must've looked at that silly thing for 10 minutes before declaring it's OK.

I'll wait for the alignment tool to arrive, and make the final check before deciding what to do next (which, might be.... nothing at all!).

The tool showed up in today's mail It's identical to the one pictured (above), from Motion Pro.

It's very simple to use, and I had my answer in a few minutes, having done the "hard part" (wheel alignment) this morning.

The tool indicates the front sprocket is not in line with the rear sprocket. The chain is "canted" in the direction that is causing it to be "hard" to the rear sprocket's right side.

I'll attempt to describe by how much the chain is out of alignment. So, the tool is basically a straight edge that can be clamped to the rear sprocket, and aligns on a metal surface that is essentially parallel to the sprocket (and chain). I sight down the tool straight edge to determine how much the chain is "not straight", or "off", over the length of the tool straight edge.

The tool straight edge length is 181 mm long (7 5/32"), and it's rod is 3 mm thick (5/32"). See the picture above.

The chain is "off" by 1/2 the thickness of the tool (straight edge rod) over the length of the tool. So, it's "off" by 5/64" over a length of 7 5/32".

Chain length frt sprocket to rear sprocket is about 30" of chain run, and so there's about 4 times tool length (approx.) chain run, front to back. This is "back of envelope" accuracy, nothing fancy. 4 times tool length, so multiply "off" by same amount (4 times), gives 4 x 5/64" = 20/64" is about 3/8". (over the length of the chain, front to rear sprocket).

That sounds like a lot to me. How about you?

Think I'll just stick with the hash marks!!LOL!!!Geez...sounds like a lot of effort...I'm too 'tired' for that I don't see HOW a front sprocket could be 'off'...but...I guess it could...I'm thinking a scarey scenario now...with you saying it's 'off'.I didn't think a countershaft could actually 'move' right or left...but....I hope yours hasn't

I guess your 'last hope' is to look at the wear on that sprocket(countershaft)...see if it's actually wearing on one edge or the other...this doesn't sound very promising...yours being off center.

"hard' to the right...I'd think if it was actually compromising something...you'd see wear on that rear surface????.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/2/2012 @ 1:06 AM *

Cycle is now at the dealer's service dept.

We've had it up on the lift, and we agree there's an issue with front to rear sprocket mis-alignment. Neither them or I know what the spec is for this alignment (center +/- what value?). The service tech has stated that the 1/4" mis-alignment "seems excessive".

They're contacting KWI on monday to determine "what next".

Anyone know if the front sprocket has an offset? Haven't had mine apart, so I don't know, but if it does, and somebody put it on backwards.......