I want to go to a 16t in the front and leave the rear where it is...stock. Do I really need to also get a new rear and a new chain when I do the front?

Yes and no. The smaller sprocket is the sacrificial part. You are looking at a what? 200 dollar chain and sprocket? The front one cost 16 bucks or there about? So, the smart way is no change but the front sprocket. The right way would be to replace new with new.

Maybe if you went with 2 new sprockets and the old chain? Then yeah, I'd change everything out.

In a perfect world you want to change all 3 (front sprocket, rear sprocket and chain) but you don’t have to change all 3 just expect faster wear on all the parts! And how many miles are on the stock chain and sprocket set!

found this article on canyon chasers site: looks like just changing front doesn't require new chain

While we are on the subject of chains, a very popular upgrade is to lower the gearing to make the bike quicker off the line at the cost of top speed. The quickest and easiest way to lower gearing is to buy a front sprocket with one less tooth. Simply replacing the front doesn't require a new chain and will cost about $14.00 to do. However, the disadvantages of doing this are pretty significant. First, if you are not replacing your chain at the same time, it will lengthen your wheelbase; that's not such a big deal. But the biggest problem with dropping a tooth in front is you put a lot more torque on your countershaft. Possibly resulting in a ruined seal or worse, a bent countershaft ($$$ expensive $$$). I know of more than one TLS/TLR out there that bent countershafts within 50 miles of dropping to a smaller front sprocket - so this is likely more of an issue with high-torque motors. So the likelihood of this happening depends on how dramatic the change is and the characteristics of the motor, but its good to be aware of this before making any decisions. We strongly feel that the best way to lower gearing is to add teeth to the rear sprocket. Depending on how dramatic of a change you want, you will probably need a new chain. Usually, you increase four teeth in the rear to equal dropping one tooth in the front (but that varies greatly depending on what your stock gearing is). By changing rear sprockets, you have more control. You can go up any number of teeth to get the result you want. I have typically only gone up one or two teeth in the rear to get the results I wanted. Plus, you are shortening your wheelbase. This is cool if you want to ride a track or a canyon.

Interesting...especially the part about the seals.Isn't a TLR a TWO CYLINDER?Just wondering here.Not that it would make any difference.I never saw any leakage of anything around my front seal there...but,???????I rode two seasons with a 16 front...no chain replacement OR rear change.Everything seemed okay.A tad more vibes...but that was it.In fact...I actually changed the front twice during that time period.I probably didn't need to...but I was trying to be very careful about wear on the chain and rear sprocket.Soon as I noticed the front starting to wear a bit...I changed it out for new.IF I'd stayed with just one front change on there,it MAY have developed some of the stuff Canyon Chasers mentioned...IDK.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 3:46 AM *

Just to be clear, I do not run my 14 on the strip. I ride mostly in the canyons and short tours (<200 miles). I have multiple bikes and use others for longer hauls. I really just want a setup that will increase the power on the low end without sacrificing the mileage and the top end. From what I have read the 16/41 setup is a good middle ground that will accommodate this. I know there are several threads where the configurations go all over the place to meet various needs. I will be running 190/50 Avon Storm 2s on this. Thought I would throw that in as I understand that a 55 changes the sprocket requirements. If anyone has a better suggested setup I'm open to the opinion. If I need to change both and the chain I would prefer to go with black and a black chain...any suggestions there would be helpful as well.

How many miles on the chain?
How well was it lubed?
Did you time the chain to sprocket on tire rotations?
If you did not dial in some 'constant' wear pattern, call the high spot.

See, I am going to assume, the chain was not timed since new. The lube is average Joe-Time to lube. The chain and rear sprocket are a mute point at this juncture. That's why you should try it out first. As long as you find the high spot, not bottom out [which you might hit a good bump] or on a sporty ride, no harm no foul.

We are looking for the book's wear pattern from link to link. That is the call of the ball. This timing of the parts is just anal'ing the parts for all it's worth. No matter, remember the link length calls the ball in the generic. It says what is happening inside (that counts).

And I'm still going round and round about that TL's output shaft. Unless this was a weak heat treat? Unless this was a high spot not being caught that when it bottomed out, it bent the shaft? All those TL's and was there a recall of some soft shaft not up to spec? I think the engine has a preset? It does not care what is going to pull you and large marge with all her change of clothes on the bags off to the side. Now pop the clutch and oops, a bent shaft?

Either a heat treat was the problem, a tight chain took the wave on the load of the shaft. How could all those race bikes change sprockets all over the place and they are souped up... I don't get it?

Sorry, forgot to put that there are 3100 miles on the chain. As far as the chain (how timed and lube)...your assumption is correct. So, unless the mileage I just put on here changes your opinion Hub...you are saying go with the new front, leave the chain and the exisiting rear and there shouldn't be a problem? Thanks for the info.

If you lower the front by one tooth...that's the same as raising the rear by two.You are going to lose fuel mileage by lowering the front and raising the rear.Can't be avoided.You will NOT see 186 mph ever.You won't without a speedohealer of some kind anyway.Regardless of gearing.You drop that front,your motor is gonna require MORE fuel to spin at any given speed.Your RPMs are going to increase for the same speedometer reading.

I know this is a chain/sprocket wear thread...I can say...I didn't see any adverse wear by switching to a 16 front and 42 rear....not saying it couldn't happen.IF you do this...unless you want your odometer to pile up the miles prematurely,you'll need to get a speedohealer of some sort.

A 4 degree timing advance won't hurt either.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 11:48 AM *

Gotcha Grn...I do understand that there will be an impact there as far as top end and fuel efficiency. I just want to keep the impact at a minimum while still increasing the low end. Just to confirm, when you went 16/42 did you use the existing chain or get a new one?

Same chain...no modifying to it.16/42 will give you a very nice thrust factor without totally bombing your top end and fuel mileage.You will still see(I did anyway)34,35 mpg if you cruise in 6th.I wouldn't advise trying to do any 'top speed runs' with this gearing.You'll just be pushing your motor unnecessarily.No point in that.I mean..if ya want to top out...ya...go ahead ya know.But you won't be passing 180 something without a healer with this gearing.

Just keep your chain adjusted correctly...more thrust...more chain stretch.Keep her lubed up nice.Should be fine.3100 miles on your chain...ya..expect some more stretch with this gearing.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 1:04 PM *

If you lower the front by one tooth...that's the same as raising the rear by two

Actually going down 1 on the front is equal to going up 4 on the rear (3.7 to be exact)

Uhmmm...didn't know it was THAT much.... Thanks...good to know

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 1:32 PM *

I have NEVER heard of bending the output shaft due to a sprocket change. And aren't Superbikes routinely pumping out 200+ hp? They don't even bend shafts! WTF???

Mad

Maybe they do...and they're just not telling us cause those sprocket companies are paying part of their salaries?I know....wild statement...probably TOTALLY unfounded.

I don't think the race people would want engine oil dripping on their tracks.....so....forget my last dumb remark

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 1:59 PM *

From: Your text to link here...

Whenever feasible to obtain a specific ratio, avoid using a smaller than stock front sprocket. The smaller sprocket requires the links of the chain to turn a tighter radius, which increases friction and decreases the life expectancy of the chain (by decreasing the life-expectancy of the o-ring seals of the chain).

Unless you very recently replaced your chain, always replace chains when replacing sprockets (and visa-versa). The two surfaces are designed to mate and wear together (the sprocket-tooth/chain-roller interface) and use of a new sprocket with a worn chain can quickly ruin the sprocket... similarly, use of a worn sprocket with a new chain will quickly ruin the chain.

Admiral whatever you do ,if you have not done so yet you'll need a speedo healer of some type.Ive got the Bonneville Pro coming on Friday

Considering the bending deal....I really don't see HOW a sprocket could cause a shaft to bend....I mean...the shaft begins to turn IMMEDIATELY as the engine speeds up.Even if it's sitting at a standstill.The chain certainly is not going to somehow stretch so much that it would jar the stopped front gear and force that shaft out of line somehow...right?The front gear won't be stopped at throttle application...so??????????????IDK...this IS the internet...lots of stuff on here....LOTS.I guess I could 'possibly' see it happening IF the rear wheel was somehow locked from turning.But normal riding?IDK.Popping the clutch at take off...maybe?Seems like you'd have to do that PRETTY DARN HARD to get a bend happening.Flex in the shaft...perhaps.Bending...I can't see that.

Now...I COULD see if your chain was too tight...yes...that could definitely cause some stress on that shaft...but the bearing would probably fail before the shaft tweaked.You would get oil seepage from that for sure.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 2:18 PM *

Hub...you are saying go with the new front, leave the chain and the exisiting rear and there shouldn't be a problem?

I'd also like to address this idea that the chain somehow has a 'memory' with the sprockets.IF the roller links are turning as they should on any given tooth....regardless of which tooth...HOW can a roller link NOT adjust to a new tooth set up?I'm not buyin the idea that you HAVE to replace chain w/sprocket or vice versa.I COULD see it IF your sprocket was so bad off that it was sharkfinning(hooking) or had teeth broken or severely worn.Yes...then probably.But changing out sprockets that still have plenty of good miles on em?I never did.My chains and sprockets worked fine.ALL of my sprockets had many more usable miles on em when I did my changing.My chain always worked fine.In 51,000 miles...I only replaced a chain one time.Due to o-ring failure from using the WRONG type of lubing/cleaning solution(s).Gearing changes in those miles....several.

Today's chains are not the same as even two years ago.Proper adjustment,cleaning and lubing regularly....I don't see a problem.

I've never run anything but STEEL sprockets.I can't speak for what kind of wear MIGHT occur to a chain using a softer metal.....??????

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/15/2012 @ 2:42 PM *

personally I wouldn't bother changing all 3 if you still have service left in the chain. The 16T will be inexpensive enough. You might find that you do not like this setup for touring and want to play around more with gearing so I guess replace as little as you can get away with until you know what works for you.

You will be running ~ 500rpm faster in 6th gear on the hihghway. I always felt the 14 had plenty of power to gear taller for touring purposes. The extreme low end like a gentle take off from almost an idle will not be improved all that much. You will be able to take off gently in 2nd gear almost without noticing it but inline 4s just don't have the lugging power way low that you can give it WOT. No gas engines really do. I don't even think deisels will make the greatest power until they get wound up just a little bit.

I guess I'm saying don't expect a huge change in the take off power for street riding. Do expect to burn more fuel and put more wear on the motor. Do expect to have a little more step-outability in cornering in cold weather or damp. It is a fun and not too expensive mod for sportriding as you mentioned you like your canyon riding. Worth a tryout. You will definitely notice the change over 3000 rpm using wide throttle openings. Then again, you can just stay with stock gearing and drop a gear for sport riding and you have you +500 rpm right there. IMO, the only reason shorter gearing is necessary is for first gear wheelies. If you are already moving fast in 2-6 gears, downshifting will produce the same effect as +4 teeth on the rear sprocket (or +1 on the front).

I did not want to go with 16T on the front because most people say it makes a whining noise at certain rpm as the chain is forced to turn a smaller diameter on the front sprocket. If you are just trying stuff, maybe you won't mind. You have chosen the cheapest and lest labor intense way to drop your gearing significantly.

blab blab blabablab!

Check out my tutorial in How-Tos for sprocket and chain replacement if you need to see how it works.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/15/2012 @ 3:05 PM *

I'd also like to address this idea that the chain somehow has a 'memory' with the sprockets.IF the roller links are turning as they should on any given tooth....regardless of which tooth...HOW can a roller link NOT adjust to a new tooth set up?

grn I have read some how-to's that state to mark a chain link and the same sprocket tooth to insure you get it back on the sprocket the same way it came off. I know I've never done it that way lol

Admiral,

This is a gearing that says, where did 6th gear go? I may stab the lever a few times during the outing. I say, you'll step up wanting to find 6th and to make sure you stab the toe and go, wink-wink! I may have stabbed a few more times than Hub, but he is not having ass pucker as much fun as you are having with that setup.

I think we can take a rest assured about how many times since the chain was invented, there was no keying'in of the chain from china to the time you changed your own bicycle tire tube as a kid; the chain never snapped, did some extra wear pattern you could live with; and so did the chain? Yes! If we remain stock, leave it alone, I'd time the baby in as I have. Swapping one sprocket is a nobrainer.

The chain has considerably walked up the rear sprocket. All I have to do is set it in gear and watch it rise. The other wear sign is to pull the center of the chain back and away from the center of the sprocket. That is hard to do @ 25k. I need to inspect the link set:

323 mm (12.7 inches) = 20 links says pin to pin is the 14's serviceable limit. I need to load the rung's tension as if under load; Stretch the thing. Throw it in gear, push forward, have someone call the number out past 12 and so and so inches, you're done.8"

If, Grn is saying the pins will see more wear, well guess what? If say the chain moves over that tighter arch, it rides on new pin, not the scored part it is digging into. Wear, is at the pin's one side. There is your stretch as the pin is now half a dowel = How the pins grow long is the stretch.

As far as what Grn came up with on the timing of the wear... Take it for what it's worth... Factory bulletin to GM techs; 'When replacing the clip that shatters in the transfer case, you needing to spit that case with the hi-vo chain, [remember] to time that chain to the gear(s) it was taken off of, or the customer complaint thru the floorboards will you hear it from them; we warned you is this bulletin from turtle's R&D center right from the top!!!!'

Now, does it make sense to you if I was nailing the transfer cases, I could call off the parts needed before you split it you got a pretty close estimate of cost? Yeah, I was more the cause of that problem not knowing to time in that hi-vo. Any car mechanics here? Any GM owners here ever blow out their transfer case in a Suburban? Gas'dagain?

Admiral...IF you go with that 16T front...I would recommend the Kawasaki "1995 Zephyr" sprocket...it's a factory 16 tooth with the rubber dampers on it just like the 17T Factory zx14 Sprocket.I never got any noise from mine.But I DID get some whining from an aftermarket front 16T.Zephyr's the way to go on this deal IMO.Spline shaft diameter and all are the same as the 14.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/16/2012 @ 2:20 AM *

Thanks a lot guys. A lot of good info here. I'm gonna absorb this and make a decision. Luckily I can now make an informed one. Thanks again all.