OK. I finally decided to pull the custom tune out of the PCV and compare it to Brock's street map. Based on the differences in the numbers, I think it may be a bit lean. Supposedly the tuner used Brocks map as a starting point, but I don't know if I am comfortable with the differences. I mean, I don't think the custom tune is unsafe, based on how the bike feels; but given how much fuel is added to Brocks map vs mine; I think I may be leaving some acceleration on the table. What do you tuners out there think? I hope this copy and paste works. If not, I can e-mail a word doc with the info.

!!!!!! These numbers ARE NOT BROCKS MAP!!!!! They are just the difference between his and mine. So without having mine as a starting point, THEY ARE USELESS.

EDIT When I post the numbers, it takes out all the spaces, so the columns are not right. How do I fix that?

RPM____%0____2____5____10____15____20____40____60____80____100
500__________________________________________________________-3
750___________-3_____________________________________________-3
1000____-4____-3______________________________________________-3
1250____-3____-3______________________________________________-3
1500_______________+7________________________________________-3
1750__________+2___+8___-2____-7_____-6_______________________-3
2000____+5____+9___+2___-6____-4_____-4___+2_____+2____________
2250__________+1___+1___-1____-6_____-3____-1_____-2____+1____+3
2500__________-1___+3___-5____-4______-3____-2_____-3____+4____-1
2750__________-3___+4____-4____-8_____-2____-3_____-2____+2______
3000__________-3____+1___+1____-5____-6_____+3___+3____+5____-1
3250__________-2____-2___+4____-2____-3_____+4____+2____+2____-2
3500__________-2____-1___+4____+1____-1____+2_____+6___+3____+1
3750__________-1____+2___+3__________+2____+3____+9___+8____+4
4000__________+5___+10___-2____-1____+1____+5____+8____+8___+6
4250__________+3____+3___-2____-2____+2____+5____+10___+8___+5
4500__________+2____+1_________-2____+2____+5____+8____+9___+6
4750__________+2_______________+1____+4____+5____+9____+8___+4
5000__________+5____-3____+4___+1____+3____+3____+7____+7___+2
5250__________+5____-3____+4___+2____+2____+6____+6____+5___+1
5500__________+5____+4___+4__________+1____+4____+5____+6___+3
5750________________+4___+5__________+2____+6____+6____+5___+3
6000________________+4___+3__________-1_____+4____+4____+3___+2
6250________________+4___+2_____+1___+3____+7____+6____+7___+4
6500_____________________+1_____-4____+2____+4____+4____+2___-2
6750_____________________-4_____-5___________+2____+4____+3_____
7000________________+1___-2_____-3_____+3___+3____+5____+5___+2
7250_____________________+3_____-5_____+2___+5____+5____+5___+2
7500_____________________+3_____-3_____+4___+7____+6____+2___+4
7750____________________________-2_____+5___+8____+6____+5___+2
8000_____________________+2_____-3_____+4___+8____+7____+5___+3
8250____________________________-5_____+7___+7____+6____+5___+4
8500____________________________-2_____+5___+7____+7____+4___+2
8750____________________________+5____+5___+6_____+6____+4___+2
9000____________________________+3____+6____+7____+6____+1______
9250____________________________+21___+3____+6____+5____+2______
9500__________________________________+5____+6_____+6___+1____+1
9750____________________________-1____+6____+6_____+5___+3____+2
10000_________________________________+7____+4_____+5___+2______
10250_________________________________+5____+5_____+6___+1____+1
10500_________________________________-4____+5_____+4___+2____+2
10750_________________________________-4____+7_____+7___+7____-1
11000_________________________________-1____+3_____+7___+6______
11250_______________________________________-7_____-2___-3____-9
11500_________________________________________________________-3
11750_________________________________________________________-3
12000_________________________________________________________-3

* Last updated by: rod442 on 5/28/2014 @ 11:24 PM *

OK. I finally decided to pull the custom tune out of the PCV and compare it to Brock's street map. Based on the differences in the numbers, I think it may be a bit lean. Supposedly the tuner used Brocks map as a starting point, but I don't know if I am comfortable with the differences. I mean, I don't think the custom tune is unsafe, based on how the bike feels; but given how much fuel is added to Brocks map vs mine; I think I may be leaving some acceleration on the table

Brock Runs the #'s for his desired AFR line of 13.6, 13.8. Which has proved to be the fastest AFR Line down the track. With that being said, did your custom tune remove more fuel than Brock's PCV Map ? If so I would worry as those maps of Brock's are on the lean side already IMO. If he added some fuel, this may have slowed you down some in a effort to keep you safe.

What do you tuners out there think?

Fact is no one can really give a good answer that question without knowing Your New custom AFR Line. If possible Post up your Dyno graph showing this line. Use this graph to advise you of what direction to take. I hope this helps cheers.

Thanks for the reply. I have to work on getting the rest of the numbers up there in a format that can be read. But yes, most of my custom maps cells are less than brocks. Most noticeably in the midrange. and I realize that w/o an airfuel on the dyno graph, its impossible to guess. Unfortunately I don't have that as part of the info that was given to me. So, until I get around to buying a wideband, I'll have no idea.

So, I thnk I should go with the richer map as a precaution. Sound thinking?

So, I thnk I should go with the richer map as a precaution. Sound thinking?

Rod with out looking at your map very hard to just guess. I have all Brock's maps to do a compare for what your tuner made for you, plus I data log my own to make correct for My Bike My Air, My Fuel at My Elevation. I do not mind taking a look at your PCV custom map to do a compare and look for alarm bells if this helps you. Send here rickromans@rogers.com Sound thinking I will leave up to you, if your tuner is good trust him.

Is your pair removed ?

I do not mind taking a look at your PCV custom map to do a compare and look for alarm bells if this helps you.

Stout fellow. I tip my hat, sir.

Thanks guys, getting the number differences posted up now.

These numbers ARE NOT BROCKS MAP!!!!! They are just the difference between his and mine.

Rod, I will be honest I Don't like it. Let me explain why.

First alarm bell that jumps out is your bottom end. Brock has already added fuel to his map to the numbers below 5000 RPM. Your tuner has added 8,9 & 10% more fuel on top of that ???? Leads me to believe your pair system is still pumping in fresh air and this is the lean condition he is adjusting for. This would explain why he added 15% fuel in total to you bottom(roughly). If your pair has been removed ???? Either way IMO your bike does not need this.

2ND Bell; If you look In your area of wide open throttle Numbers at 11,250,,,,, your tuner has taken out another minus 9% fuel on top of the minus 9 that Brock already removed ????? That would mean you are running minus 18 percent at wide open throttle in this area. This is very wrong.

The Map has been richened everywhere else which can't hurt as maybe it needed it? although the plus 21 is a bit of a head scratcher.

Rod I hope this info gives you the guidance you were looking for. Cheers.

Stout fellow. I tip my hat, sir.

Thank You Sir. Hagrid I was where Rod is now years ago and I never forgot. It's clear that Rod wants his bike to run as perfect as he can get it. If I can help point any of you in the right direction I will Cheers

Thank you. For now the richer map stays in. I will have to do more testing, or get my wideband hooked up to see whats really going on. Also, I may have a contact at the local community college that can put my bike on a dyno, and we can make some pulls with both maps. Ill have to see about that.

Also, I will have to remove some plastics and check to see that he did the pair block off as part of the install. I would assume so.... but you know how that goes.

Romans, just so I'm not misunderstanding you; the positive + numbers I posted above are how much more richer the Brocks map is. As in, everywhere there is a + is fuel Brock has it richer. The area's I'm concerned most about are the 3750rpm and 20% fuel up to around 11000 and 100%. Almost all of those numbers are richer on the Brocks map.

Are we on the same page?

* Last updated by: rod442 on 5/29/2014 @ 11:07 PM *

Are we on the same page?

Romans, just so I'm not misunderstanding you; the positive + numbers I posted above are how much more richer the Brocks map is.

Yikes, No not on the same page. I read it the other way. You know, Brock gave you the maps with your pipe and you went and had a custom tune. My Bad.

Now very curious. Where do you live and what is your elevation ?

* Last updated by: Romans on 5/30/2014 @ 4:17 AM *

I am near ann arbor michigan. Elevation is about 730 feet. Basically the same as brocks place.

I now have a dyno graph with an af table. It shows around 13.8 af for most of the run. I'll post it later.

The shop did a custom tune a as part of the install. Didn't cost me anything.

* Last updated by: rod442 on 5/30/2014 @ 11:53 AM *

I am near ann arbor michigan. Elevation is about 730 feet. Basically the same as brocks place.
I now have a dyno graph with an af table. It shows around 13.8 af for most of the run. I'll post it later.

Rod if your bike copies Brocks AFR line of 13.6, 13.8 you have nailed the sweet spot. No tweeking required. Congrats.

Gee where have I read this before .. :) lol

Hey, I'm just trying to get as much input as I can. Talked to the shop today. They swear they have it absolutely dialed in. they have the latest dynojet equipment, the tuner is pro certified through dynojet, etc etc.

Its a bit difficult to read, but here is the a/f dyno pull. I was told that 13.6-13.8 is what it liked for power.

Looks to me like its more around 14.0 though. So, I guess I'm up in the air still. need to get my w/b hooked up, me thinks.

* Last updated by: rod442 on 5/30/2014 @ 11:49 PM *

Great numbers sir, but that to me looks just a might lean. You must take into account the fact that at say 180mph you are gonna be cramming massive amounts of air down her throat. She can do a lot to compensate and does, but if ur starting from a static lean, dynamic load will translate to slightly leaner A/F. Just my 2c sir. Great numbers and obviously a strong motor! Also have to say, these are brutally strong motors. It will not be hurt at all by .4 of A/F difference. The factory tunes em leaner than that. Just wanted to make sure I was being clear. Not saying your tune is bad. Looks strong. Pretty smooth A/F line. I would prefer it a might richer but hey, everyone has an opinion right. How does she feel? Are ya happy? If so? Ride the shit out of her and don't look back sir!

* Last updated by: Cblast on 5/31/2014 @ 12:08 AM *

Thanks for the comments cblast. I'm thinking the same thing. For a standing still pull, it might be ok but lean at speed. bike feels great with both maps in. and its so fast, I cant "feel" any real difference by seat of the pants. Lots of sensory input at wot. lol. more testing required.

Exactly bud. The sensory overload from the acceleration takes some mental toughness to overcome. It seriously is the fastest accelerating thing we can reasonably get our hands on. :D This is the edge of the envelope. So once you find you have acclimatized more to the almost violent nature of the acceleration you will have a better feel for WOT's crackin under load.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 5/31/2014 @ 8:11 AM *

Max Torque = 121.03 Leave it alone.
Book Torque = 120.0 That's all the preset there is. Any more is bore/port/cam/turbo/etc.

Very Stout! Congrats

Talked to the shop today. They swear they have it absolutely dialed in. they have the latest dynojet equipment, the tuner is pro certified through dynojet, etc etc.

Its a bit difficult to read, but here is the a/f dyno pull. I was told that 13.6-13.8 is what it liked for power.

Rod the testing down the track for Max speed lowest times have been tested repeatedly as this bike has been around for awhile now. Lee Pritchard Wheelie and many others have tested the Brock line over and over. Making the AFR line Richer and then Leaner run after run. It's their religion, These guys have been kind enough to share their results to help us all. Respect.

Now you ride the exact proof of what is known to work, congrats.

Max Torque = 121.03 Leave it alone.
Book Torque = 120.0 That's all the preset there is. Any more is bore/port/cam/turbo/etc. Very Stout! Congrats

2nd third forth lol Your bike is set up perfectly to run the fastest line. Well done, cheers

Are ya happy? If so? Ride the shit out of her and don't look back sir!

Totally Agree

So, I guess I'm up in the air still. need to get my w/b hooked up, me thinks.

Rod I too keep testing, as the temp changes the A/R changes, our fuel changes, winter gas summer gas. As it has been said many times what works for one does not always work for another. Wide band, data log testing provides great peace of mind to obtain our desired AFR Line when conditions change that out of our control. The science never ends and that's where the fun is IMO. pic of my set up shown.

Cust: Ring-Ring, hello tech?
PowCom: Hi Lo, Chris here.

Cust: I'm calling for secret tips.
PowCom: There are none. It's all common sense.

Cust: You mean there are no secrets?
PowCom: Correct. We seem to see it's hidden in plain sight.

Cust: You mean as in hindsight?
PowCom: Yes, sight down that AFR line and here it comes.

Cust: You mean the secret?
PowCom: No, the common sense. Aim for peak hp/torque so there are no tricks, but chasing what snowflake measures at.

Cust: Ah, so all I have to do is find all she wrote and that's the trick = common sense?
PowCom: Correct.

Cust: Give me a, for an example.
PowCom: Say lingsow ports a better hole than singlow. Port ling is going to flow [sooner = less drag] and cause this AFR number we start them up in the same room. I dyno for HP peak numbers, not AFR. Who ported the better head? Head makes HP. Now the head becomes a snowflake between how sing ported his. All AFR shows is where it's at if peak HP has en0ugh gas, then here is peak TQ too. It took no more or no less gas to reach this peak, meaning, here is where the AFR landed. My ling is not your sing head. You are going to reach peak, but with a different AFR = Who cares. Peak is on the table and the cells +/- numbers are who cares, this means peak.

Cust: OK, let me think in hubbishithe log I throw on the fire is too rich. It looks rich but does not burn well.
PowCom: Watthell just happened to me? Why yes, look at that fire burning and there is no real flame front: being too rich. Let me grab that log and throw all these twigs on top with a lot of air between them looking all lean and look out, feel the heat off that power all in a better burning flame front?

Cust: I see. It's all about what fuel ratio is too rich or too lean or just right. I just need to chase and reach peak power no matter the AFR number.
PowCom: Correct. No matter the AFR mix, the only 2 numbers that count are HP and TQ. The AFR number is who cares. The AFR number what snowflake chews on to fatten up her HP is when you place our feed bag over the ECU.

Hey, I'm just trying to get as much input as I can.

What's one more map. So if your numbers dial-in, we are looking at a lot smoother map that I've been messing with. Here are your AFR numbers in no certain rpm.