Went ahead and took em out this night.About an hour's work removing stuff(including flies)...but it went really well.Used a JIS 900 1.75 Phillips.No heating of anything...no malleting screwdrivers.Just a firm steady turn,they came loose very easily.Tank didn't need to be totally removed...just the four bolts off,and then turning it and setting it diagonally across the bike...easy.Was able to get 4 screws at a time this way.Everything went back together fine...nice easy hour's worth of work.Be trying it today hopefully.IDK what it is actually...but removing bodywork and all on this bike is very simple and quick.And stuff either fits or it doesn't...which makes it very easy to get right.Plus their fitment tabs and stuff...easy to slide together and she tightens right up.No gaps...nice seams and all.Even with a bit more 'engineering' going on with how things go together....she's a big improvement over my 07.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 2:44 AM *

Very interested in your impressions. This was night and day on my 06. I didn't remove them on 08. Are you planning on re-mapping??

Not yet...this map was designed for a 'sooner opening' secondary response.Still raining... .I'm pretty sure the Brock's streetmap I have now is gonna be fine.

The Guhl flash opens em sooner.Other guys have the same setup...exactly...and they said removing the flies will definitely give a nice result.

You know..it's hard to imagine a 'nicer' result....but I'm all in

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 2:28 PM *

Yes i pulled the flies and have brocks street map and it runs even smoother. You'll see. I talked to steve at brocks he said the maps were made for flies in or out.

I don't get it, Brock has an article about the 14R not having a flies issue, that's why there is so much more low end. You guys seen it?

Well....I got er out for the 'test run'.....my opinion....ahem...you know you guys that've changed your stock 14 gearing?Y...okay...like to 16/43?Okay.It's all that and then some SHWEET!Anyone with the new 14R needs to do this mod.I was a tad skeptical about it at first...sheesh...no more.This has got to be the closest thing now to a full on race bike I could think of....except Maybe something with a full on race cam or something...but....she friggin flies now.You downshift like into 3rd...50 mph...then open er up for the curve(s),and power on in....and out...immediate response...immediate torque.Power delivery going up through the rpms is very strong....stronger than ever.I could actually FEEL the hp and torque curves happening...just very cool.There's several 'blasts' now very noticeable as I throttle up...and I wasn't even opening her wide open...just a nice fat roll-on from 3rd.To the limiter.OMG....just great...and it's like this in every gear!I can't really imagine anyone changing the gearing with this deal to something shorter...I definitely don't need to do that now...or anytime soon!

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 6:37 PM *

Told you she's a beast. I have the 16 43 gearing and yes she is a handful in 1st and 2nd. Now do you see what we me about racing a zx10. Flies out with exhaust she is amazing. With gearing like mine forget about it!!!

Yup....I think I stayed in 4th most of my ride today....except for...well...you know....a few power curves and such...but yeah....didn't affect the street ride quality at all...she's even better now!!I ran with the KTRC in "1"....it was definitely getting a workout!...came home...switched it to 'off'...went out to my local LARGE OPEN parking lot....sheesh....first and second....batta bing batta boom!SWEET!I'll be leaving that gearing alone...no sense in pushing it too fast

"racing a 10"...I was thinkin about that vid I saw...as I was coming home today.Feeling how my bike was performing..and I was 'being reserved'...I can't see a 10 tearin this bike a new one....honestly...In the hands of a capable rider...I'd LOVE to see what my bike could actually do now.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 6:41 PM *

Good for you grn glad you finally did it!!

I won't be looking back either as Wee said!!!!Thanks to all you guys on the other site...and posting here about the fly removal...glad I listened...thanks!Thinking on that Guhl flash...comparing THIS thing with how it was before...with the Guhl flash...I'm not so sure they actually did ANYTHING about opening those flies sooner!Sure feels different now .

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 6:45 PM *

So is there any abruptness in the powerband? I remember reading about the older models having some hickup's with the flies out.

I didn't feel any.One thing I DID notice...IF I pulled the clutch in all the way...at certain shifts down...I could feel the rear tire 'slightly' lose grip...a small stutter as the slipper kicked in.But nothing bad really.I just won't pull the clutch in all the way from now on when downshifting(basically,I was trying to feel what the clutch throw was doing with a full lever pull and shift down).VERY momentary...downshifting w/out clutch...it was smooth as glass.And downshifting barely pulling the lever..smooth as glass.

I would have to say..those secondaries ARE being used to smooth out certain areas of the performance.I wouldn't know exactly what areas...but that's my impression anyway.She never downshifted with that little deal before...so...I'd have to say...they are being actuated somehow through the ECU programming(stock).Either that..or the KTRC is 'doing the 'smoothing' by itself now...along with the ignition.Mainly...I was riding and trying to see if I could spot a connection with the KTRC and Secondaries and ignition cut.I do think the three are somehow interconnected...to produce a particular type of ride.

The KTRC definitely was working on hard acellerations..wheelies...stuff like that.I'll have to try it in the "off" position next ride and do some downshifting as I did today...to see if that stutter rear tire thing is still happening.I don't want anyone to misunderstand...the slipper was working perfectly.At no time did the bike feel like it was not controlled.The throttle ups were smooth and strong..very...with no missing or hiccups on application in any situation.

I think she's gonna act a slightly bit different if a guy's doing something like a 3500 rpm launch.But the bottom end...1000rpms...even below that(in 1st)...she was smooth...no jerking or anything.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/31/2012 @ 7:46 PM *

zx14racer wrote:

Yes i pulled the flies and have brocks street map and it runs even smoother. You'll see. I talked to steve at brocks he said the maps were made for flies in or out.

Of course it is, because taking the flies out doesn't materially affect the A/F ratio it just allows whatever A/F ratio the piggy is willing to deliver at a given rpm and gear to be delivered sooner.

So to a map, it makes no difference.

Not true at all some of the older maps needed to be tuned for no flies,brock just has beter techonolgy now. I asked him. And on his last video for the 14r he states VERY cleary that removing the flies does have a big effect in the af ratio down low,but its not damaging. Look on his site at the dyno sheets with flies and without on top of each other,the af ratio def. jumps around.

Hey Guys the first thing I did to my other 14s was to pull the flys and Brock them out. The problem was when the wife road I had to be careful about hittin the throttle to quick because it would jump so quick I was afraid I was going to dump her off the back. And I'm not talkin about wacking it I'm talkin just small throttle amounts. The way I see it and common physics of the longer stroke this is going to be stronger on the 14R.

Do you guys ride you wifes/girlfriends on the 14R with the flies out and if so does it have a touchy throttle after the flies are removed? I really want to take them out but don't want to give her wipelash every time I try to accelerate a little. I know I would love it but she really likes to ride 14R and I don't want to make her scared of riding it. I guess with proper throttle control she'll never know I took them out, unless of course the throttle is that sensitive. Thanks for your imput.

srey, Leave them in. Both up, a brisk twist, those flies act as an air brake. You lift, they close some too. Yes, the bike is too twitchy for two. Yes, you can get away with it if you are on top of the throttle action. Yes, the bottom end will have more torque for two up. But, that slight safety valve when needed, it is better to keep them in. Yes, it has a slight difference. Yes, you will lose a 1/3rd of what is K-skid.

"Yes i pulled the flies and have brocks street map and it runs even smoother. You'll see. I talked to steve at brocks he said the maps were made for flies in or out."....Owner speaks.

"srey, Leave them in. Both up, a brisk twist, those flies act as an air brake. You lift, they close some too. Yes, the bike is too twitchy for two. Yes, you can get away with it if you are on top of the throttle action. Yes, the bottom end will have more torque for two up. But, that slight safety valve when needed, it is better to keep them in. Yes, it has a slight difference. Yes, you will lose a 1/3rd of what is K-skid".....doesn't own one....never ridden one."Yes, it has a slight difference".Pls explain?

"Safety valve"....has nothing to do with secondaries...'safety valve' is directly activated by wheel spin,from front/back or both.Ignition 'adjusted' to prevent engine acelleration.That's KTRC..

Sensitivity of KTRC depends on setting.This determines the activation time of the system.Secondaries have nothing to do with this activation time.

The secondary removal is going to be the most noticeable while opening the throttle in roll-on type of acellerations.It will give the midrange a bigger shot.Can definitely be felt in these types of riding.The higher the rpm...the more this is going to be noticeable.That's why the drag guys are removing them.But it won't turn your 'two up' riding into a wheelspin,necksnapping adventure.Not at all.Throttle application will be virtually the same...until you really open er up.But it still won't be uncomfortable for your pillion.You'll love it...so will she. Best compared to 16/43 gearing on the previous years bikes with secondaries removed and mapped.Your new kickazz motorcycle will feel like she's living the dream....DO IT!

I have the Rifleman's 1/5th throttle mod on my 14R...if THIS doesn't cause 'twichyness"...nothing will.Mine does not twitch in the least.In any throttle application.Slow roll on...changing gears,acellerating mid corner...changing gears cornering...none of that.Gassing her and letting up,then regassing...no problem..smooth...

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/3/2012 @ 11:06 AM *

Thanks Hub thats about what I've got figured.
Grn14 I've been told and read that the secodaries are a big part of the traction control, and one guy took them out of his Connie and told me it didn't work as good. Its got to have something to do with it. Air, fuel and spark. The secondaries controling the air part no.

"Grn14 I've been told and read that the secodaries are a big part of the traction control",...yes...I know.Leaving them in is fine.Nothing wrong with that at all.The traction control is not dependant on secondary plate operation.If you do mod your new bike with the 'basic' stuff...exhaust,powercommander,mapping...the secondaries play virtually no part in the performance arena except..to restrict the full potential of this motor.The fuel delivery without secondaries is 'mapped'(assuming you have a PC on there) so the need for those plates is..."0".

I can't speak for a guy with a Connie....that's NOT the same engine tune.So,IDK.I'm no expert on anything motorcycles...FI,KTRC or anything else.I only give MY experience(s)....everyone will have their own experiences with what they do.Mine is not twitchy.Totally controllable.I have 'almost' zero free play in my throttle.The minimum.IF your throttle free play is 'more'...you 'may' have some throttling 'issues'IDK.It's really all in the wrist IMO...the engine runs fine and smooth without those secondaries...on my bike anyway.The KTRC does exactly as it's set to do.It stops wheel spin.(or wheelying).It does not create a whiplashing motorcycle.Even turned off.

If you launch your bike,with your passenger...like a guy at a drag race...you will be sorry...flies or no flies with THIS bike

Secondary removal on THIS bike is not...'minimally noticeable'....it is VERY noticeable and nice when rolling on hard and things like that.It will NOT affect the ride quality of this motorcycle.Everything electrical will still operate as it's supposed to...without any problems.KTRC will work fine.Throttle smoothness will work fine.

Let me clarify one thing here...lots of guys who have the previous models think that this motorcycle is 'just the same' pretty much with some cosmetic facelifts and a 'bigger' displacement.It is NOT.Trying to describe the virtues of THIS bike to someone...anyone...who hasn't actually spent seat time on her...is a waste of time.It's something a guy has to experience for himself....I can't say..."Kawasaki did this and this and this for this reason or that"...IDK.Are the secondaries tied into the KTRC...YES.Are they there for a reason...YES.IF you pulled the flies on a stock 14R....and did nothing else...I DO NOT KNOW how the engine and KTRC and all would behave.It MIGHT be twitchy...it MIGHT degrade the rideablity.It might do something strange with the KTRC.IDK...and am not pretending to know.All I'm going by is MY BIKE...MY experience with what I've done and lots of others have done so far with their new bikes.That's all....no suppositions...no guessing.16/43...that's the closest I can compare with.16/43 on a 'flyless' earlier model.Except MUCH stronger naturally.

I'll say..I was skeptical about doing this for the reasons you stated.Mainly...ride quality...that was my main concern.It did not affect the ride quality...on my 'modded' bike.She's as smooth as before...even moreso.It's the fuel mapping and ignition that make or break the ride quality...not the secondaries.I have always thought...correct or not...that those secondaries were a 'safety feature' for the 14.I can see how they 'could be'.But once a guy starts riding his bike...he learns how to ride safely...hopefully.He learns how to throttle up...all that stuff.This KTRC is there for a reason....big power.IMO...once a guy starts learning about the performance of his 14R...by riding...then the need for those "safety features" becomes less critical.SOME you realize you can do without.And enhance the performance as well.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/3/2012 @ 12:00 PM *

I just watched a video put on by Brock.He said in third gear it lost 30 hp in the mid to high range.185-155.
Craig

The traction control is not dependant on secondary plate operation.

In other words, grneeie admits that he does not know his current bikes ability when he says, ".So,IDK.I'm no expert on anything motorcycles.."... Well, if you read the factory's wording to become more of a expert to the bike's way of addressing a situation, they said that other brands use a 2-way controller; fuel and ignition. The K-skid is part of the new generation of adding additional "cutting" to the power curve. They then state, they are the "first" to use the 3-way cut of the 'robusting throttle apply,' i.e., sub closing along with fuel pressure drop and retarding of the ignition curve...

... So says the brochure. Reading a press kit does not make one an expert on bikes, right? I'm just reporting the facts, mama.

"Reporting the facts".
Now that sounds damned familiar...

"with fuel pressure drop and retarding of the ignition curve"...fuel pressure drop?Show me this...please not in your own paraphrasing okay?... "we now incorporate into K-skid, a sub closing event to the"...to the what? "lose control of my robusting".And what is THAT supposed to mean?They wrote that in there...'lose control of my robusting'?This I gotta see for myself.Where IS this 'sheet' of info...whatever you called it.You read it somewhere..I'd like to read it.

"I believe the brochure if not a press kit saying, and I am paraphrasing, "We here at read up on our new electronic program, we now incorporate into K-skid, a sub closing event to the; lose control of my robusting."

"In other words, grneeie admits that he does not know his current bikes ability"...and this 'in other words' relates to...what again?the statement you made above it?How does MY statement relate to that statement?

Just what ability IS that that you're talking about?Maybe you can explain just HOW the KTRC DOES operate....go ahead...we all want to know.

"In other words, grneeie admits that he does not know his current bikes ability"...ya...so what?Something wrong with not knowing every nook and cranny on an English Muffin to be able to enjoy how it tastes?Who cares if I do or don't know every facet of my motorcycle.I never claimed to....but you seem to be able to pick my comment(s) apart and 'find fault'...okay...it's YOUR show...tell us how the KTRC works.In detail...we all want to know...since we have no other source of knowledge about it here on this forum.And 'personal experience' means zero apparently.Go ahead...I for one would enjoy having you tell me how my bike works.Dummy that I am ya know.

Maybe THIS little article...straight from Kawasaki Tech says something about secondaries...uhm....well...let's see...I'm sure it's here...somewhere...

This is the SAME KTRC found on the Ninja 14R.There is absolutely NO mention of subthrottles controlling ANYTHING.Wheelspin..sensors...ignition...these are the PRIMARY inputs for activation of the power managemant on this bike.NOT secondary throttle plates.I'm not smart enough to make this up...this 'brochure' was given to me prior to the release of the 14R..by my dealer...who went to a three day seminar fully dedicated to teaching the Kawasaki techs about the new system(s).This paper is...fact(s)...not paraphrasing...or 'supposing'.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/4/2012 @ 12:35 AM *

"lose control of my robusting".And what is THAT supposed to mean?They wrote that in there...'lose control of my robusting'?This I gotta see for myself.

Its 2:45 AM here in lovely armPittsburgh and my other half is currently slapping the living shit out of me.
Why? Because im cackling at the top of my lungs after that lil gem!

Well...here's another 'gem'(just for you my bud Hagrid )...from a REAL zx14R rider(not someone like ole GRN...the 'Joe-A' of the internet)....."The flies have to come out unless you want to fall into save your ass mode .If falls into that safe mode and you will slow down big time .. . Yes you will lose 2 HP on the very very top RPMs .. 2 HP is not a big deal as you can see from my numbers .. The bike even with the flies out is ECU limited in the first 3 gears ( most likely timing retard of some type)"(spoken like a true Joe-A....eh?).. No mention of secondaries at all...EXCEPT...to 'smooth out the airflow at higher rpms'...which he says himself...it's "not been shown this is what it's doing yet"...professional dragracer and owner of his own shop.Is pulling 1/4 mile times in the low 8's...

And from another...Joe-A."I was one that reinstalled my flies and the bike dropped almost 2 tenghts in the 1/8 and 3mph. My rider told me that something was wrong, and I told him I reinstalled the flies and he said that was a problem and wouldn't ride anymore that night. I removed them and we went back and the et came back and so did the mph. So the bike is slower with the flies in than out. Also it is stronger on the street with them out".Notice...NO mention of KTRC involvement.

^^^^"So the bike is SLOWER[sic][not because of the KTRC] with the flies in than out"....my words>>>>>>>"the secondaries play virtually no part in the performance arena except..to restrict the full potential of this motor"...posted BEFORE I ever read this other gent's posts on a completely different site talking about HIS experiences with HIS bike...2012 ZX14R..and I'm just Joe-A.Think who I'd be IF I actually KNEW something?

Just to conclude this little discussion...the SECONDARIES have NOTHING to do with HOW the KTRC behaves.They are only used to smooth the fueling at particular rpms.KTRC works perfectly as it should without the secondaries.Smooth ignition adjustments to restrict the engine performance...not fueling by secondary action.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/4/2012 @ 1:31 AM *