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Thread: Where to place Autotune sensor

Created on: 07/27/09 10:14 PM

Replies: 11

BlkMax


BlkMax's Gravatar

Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Joined: 05/19/09

Posts: 15

Where to place Autotune sensor
07/27/09 10:14 PM

I have a Yoshi R-77 Ti/Stainless full system, and a PCV with Autotune in the boxes right now. I know others have this same setup, but I have some installation questions.

My questions are this:
1. Did you guys get a stainless bung for the O2 sensor, or use the mild steel one that came from Dynojet?-I am pretty anal about my welding and prefer to have a like metal to like metal weld. I talked to Yoshi and they use 304L stainless for the tubes.
2. Where did you locate the sensor in the exhaust system?
3. Based on the answer to #2, would you have chosen a different location after you did the welding?

As a side note did anyone try just running the PCV with the tune from Dynojet for the Yoshi's? I am thinking about making the Autotune a winter project as I REALLY just want to ride , and not have to deal with the fabrication for the bung at this time.

Thanx...



Ride Safe...

Black Max
2007 Honda ST1300, Staintunes, Cruise Control, AutoComm, GPS, etc., etc. - A Sport Tourer
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14, Yoshi R77, PCV w/AutoTune, AutoComm - A SUPER Sport Tourer

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/28/09 7:54 AM

Blk,

You have an '08 with the center cat in the header. You want the bung before the cat and after the 4 headers dump in the center. After the cat, the fuel is more burned, so the 02 cannot read there. Before the cat, the gas is raw and the 02 adjusts from there.

Once you pull the header to drill for the bung, you'll see where the cat is and then, "Plug Git INN ~ Plug It In."



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Monster14


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Location:

RedRaiderland...lubbock tx

Joined: 03/30/09

Posts: 289

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/28/09 8:51 AM

I would like to get autotune, really wish the TiForce already had the bung in it like my Micron did.



09 ZX14 MONSTER ENERGY EDITION
K&N, pcV, full Brocks, 16t Vortex, Muzzy fan, roaring toyz lowered and stretched,EK green chain,Ivans block offs,green LEDs

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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 20590

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/28/09 10:01 AM

Hi Max. I hope you get a lot of feedback on this because I think you have raised some good points. Maybe I will have to PM you about this like metals situation or perhaps you would post some details on this thread. All I can offer you is that I have not heard of anyone making their own 02 bung or using anything other than what is supplied with the Autotune unit.

The collector seems to be the place to weld the bung in. If you are installing the bung in your full system, cats are no longer an issue. I think Hub was assuming you wanted to use the autotune with your stock header. As I'm sure you have seen, there are instructions with the unit regarding what angle is best to avoid condensation rust on the bung. If you ceramic coat, do it after the bung is welded in place, of course. Good luck!



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 20590

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/28/09 10:09 AM

I think you will find some pics on p 4 of this thread that might help. I know Dogo has a pic of the collector/bung with the pipe installed and that made more sense to me than what he has shown us in this thread. If you PM him, I'm sure he would send you the pic he sent me. He's been off the forums for a few weeks now. Might have had some major repairs to do on his 14. (Or he's riding the hell out of the new one!)


* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2009 @ 10:17 AM *



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased

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BlkMax


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Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Joined: 05/19/09

Posts: 15

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/28/09 10:48 AM

All,
Thank you for the input.

Hub,
Rook is correct, I am placing the bung in the full set so the cats are not an issue.

These are my thoughts:

I have done some internet research and I can buy a 300 series stainless bung from the import tuner car folks for somewhere south of about $6. I have also been to the Bazzaz site and found I can buy a SS bung about $50 . Hmmmmmm let me think about that for a second....NOT. The cool thing about the Bazzaz folks is that they do have a titanium bung for people with a full Ti system, and the Ti bung would be required...nothing wrong there you can not fix with money.

As for the welding. It is possible to "stick" mild steel to stainless steel, but I would not really call it welding unless you are using special filler material. If the guy in the muffler shop say "yeah, I can just weld it up for you....be afraid, be very afraid. I hate it when bubba muffler just starts running a wire feed welder on my stuff and making it seal.

The nice part about this particular weld is that the weld only has to do 2 things. First, seal up the exhaust leak caused by drilling the hole for the O2 sensor, which is pretty easy because the pipes have very little pressure inside versus outside (I know, there is some pressure, but the exhaust is not driving a turbo or anything). Second, it need to be strong enough to hold up the O2 sensor itself so the sensor does not fall on the ground. Having said all that....

I would be happy to use the 300 series bung on the 3604L of the tubes, then use 304L filler rod and a tig torch to make the weld.

As for the placement of the O2 sensor, I have looked at the instructions for the sensor, know the recommend location on the pipe (perfect would be 12:00 on the pipe but not realistic unless you want to use the sensor for foot rest). That leaves the 3:00 position on the pipe looking from the front to the back on the bike, with a slight angle up on the sensor (think draining water back into the pipe from the sensor). To be more specific I was looking for the longitudnal location along the bike for the sensor (closer to the collector-is there enough room to get it in front of the oil pan? or towards the rear near the right foot peg-are there any suspension issues associated with this location?). My concern is the sensor running transverse to the bike and being too low, or not being able to the the "drain back" angle on the sensor without the sensor wire hitting the bike. I say all this without having actually fitted the pipes, so I do not know how much clearance I actually have.

I cannot work on the 14 until I finish the 16K PM on the other bike. I only bring one bike at a time down, so I always have something to ride.



Ride Safe...

Black Max
2007 Honda ST1300, Staintunes, Cruise Control, AutoComm, GPS, etc., etc. - A Sport Tourer
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14, Yoshi R77, PCV w/AutoTune, AutoComm - A SUPER Sport Tourer

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DogoZX


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Location:

Location: Location!

Joined: 02/26/09

Posts: 2889

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/29/09 1:46 AM

I think you will find some pics on p 4 of this thread that might help. I know Dogo has a pic of the collector/bung with the pipe installed and that made more sense to me than what he has shown us in this thread. If you PM him, I'm sure he would send you the pic he sent me. He's been off the forums for a few weeks now. Might have had some major repairs to do on his 14. (Or he's riding the hell out of the new one!)

Or he mighta boughta boat.

Here's where I put mine.

[img][/img]

Pic was taken from the left (kickstand) side of the bike, with the fairings removed. I just used the mild steel bung that came with the autotune.
Fits like it was put there at the factory. I would not change the location if I could.



"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” HST

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Hub


Hub's Gravatar

Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/29/09 7:35 AM

4 bungs and a black box = Set me up. You do not want me to bring INN, "Slow you UP." Bunch of bung nuts!

Gonna get you Linears! Come get some!




Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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BlkMax


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Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Joined: 05/19/09

Posts: 15

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
07/29/09 8:44 AM

Thanx guys. For some reason I missed the comment about the pictures being on the site.

That is just what I needed.



Ride Safe...

Black Max
2007 Honda ST1300, Staintunes, Cruise Control, AutoComm, GPS, etc., etc. - A Sport Tourer
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14, Yoshi R77, PCV w/AutoTune, AutoComm - A SUPER Sport Tourer

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laverda1200



Location:

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Joined: 06/15/09

Posts: 96

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
08/02/09 3:53 PM

Hi all

2008 ZX 14 SE. Already have a K & N air filter, already had the bike on the rear wheel dyno at about 600 miles to check exhaust gas ratio settings with stock exhaust.

My first question is how accurate can an Exhaust Gas Reading be on a stock bike where the dynojet operator sticks a sniffer up the stock muffler? The sniffer is taking its readings AFTER the exhaust gas passes through the catalytic converter??

My second question is how accurate could a custom map done for a bike with a stock header/cat be done by a tuning shop using a PC III or PC V if they are taking their EGR readings from a sniffer taking its readings after the cat??

My third question is does anyone know what material the tubing of the stock header/cat is? Mild steel? Stainless?

I want to keep the stock header and run dual slip ons, so I can continue to use the center stand I installed on the bike.

I have ordered from Fuelmoto end of last week a PC V, an autotuner, and a pair of titanium/carbon Yosh R77 slip ons. I was thinking of installing everything, then taking the bike to get a custom map done, then let the autotuner do the fine tuning, but am now wondering if the custom map would even be worth doing if they stick the gas sniffer into the muffler after the cat?Isn't the autotuner going to get different readings once its O2 sensor is installed ahead of the cat in the header?

Thanks for any advice

Paul


* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 8/2/2009 @ 3:54 PM *



2008 Kawasaki ZX 14 SE, Power Commander V and Autotune, Manic Salamander bar ends, Cox Racing radiator screen, LSL frame sliders, GIVI V35 hard bags

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BlkMax


BlkMax's Gravatar

Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Joined: 05/19/09

Posts: 15

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
08/11/09 12:04 AM

Laverda,
The accuracy of an O2 tailpipe reading AFTER a catalytic converter should be considered suspect at best.

A catalytic converter combines oxygen, O2 with carbon monoxide CO and nitrogen in this format:
2CO + O2 ? 2CO2
2NOx ? xO2 + N2
They are also used to break down unburned hydrocarbons like this:
CxH2x+2 + 2xO2 ? xCO2 + 2xH2O

The above came from Wikipedia

As you can see, unburned O2 in the exhaust is combined by the cat to reduce emissions. If you are measuring for O2 to determine combustion efficiency, then you are going to make the mixture MORE rich to get the "correct" mixture after the cat does its business if you are taking the measurement AFTER the cat. I would assume that emission testing done on vehicles at the tailpipe is based on certified measurements by the manufacturer being provided to the testing stations to get a "passing" measurement. This will work because the testing stations are looking for STOCK values, not something that is being twisted up for performance.

The dyno test you have on your bike is accurate for the HP & torque for that dyno. I am not sure what sensor is being used at the tailpipe, but if it was an O2 sensor, the readings from that sensor have been skewed by the cat.

I too, would question a custom map generated by using an O2 sensor AFTER the cat (the tuner would have to be guessing how much O2 is being consumed by the cat.

As for the stock header material. I THINK it is probably a 400 series stainless steel. I just took my stock headers off and installed a Yoshi full set. When the pipes came off, they had some flash rust and were brown after about 5700 miles. They could also be mild steel, but my guess is that they are the stainless based on the condition of the pipes...there was not a "heavy" (relatively speaking) corrosion on the outside that I would have expected from a mild steel system...but again I am guessing. You can not use the magnet test on 400 series stainless, because like mild steel, the magnet will stick (I tried this on my stock 14 headers and the magnet sticks).

I found this on the Banks Engineering site:
Sometimes using the best material doesn't necessarily mean using the most expensive material. For example, consider the stainless steel used by Banks in many of its exhaust and manifold applications. There are many different grades of stainless steel, and here's a case where less expensive happens to be better for durability. We'll simplify things by lumping the different grades of exhaust system stainless steel into two categories: 300-series stainless and 400-series stainless. The 300-series stainless is significantly more expensive than the 400-series stainless, and the 300-series is classy material. It will polish beautifully and generally retain its appearance even when subjected to high heat. Top grades of 300-series stainless are especially durable, and very expensive. Some exhaust system manufacturers seek to market the benefits of top 300-series alloys by using a less expensive 300-series grade, called 304. Make no mistake, 304 is still more expensive than 400-series stainless. It has just one little problem: it cracks in high-stress areas when subjected to frequent heat cycling, such as in an exhaust system. 304 doesn't have the fatigue resistance of higher grades of 300-series stainless.

The 400-series stainless isn't nearly as classy. 409 stainless doesn't polish up very well, and worse yet, when heated it tends to turn a tannish-brown color. It will even develop light surface rust after time (a condition that does not affect the material's function or longevity), but 400-series stainless has advantages that offset its appearance: it is a durable material for an exhaust system and it doesn't crack in high-stress areas or adjacent to welds when heat cycled. That's why Banks, like the automakers, uses 409 stainless for its performance exhaust systems. Banks could use 300-series stainless, but it would dramatically increase the cost of Banks' system, and unless a top 300-series grade was used, it wouldn't be as durable as 409. It would simply reduce the value of a Banks system. We should point out that where a polished stainless tip is added to the end of the tailpipe, Banks does use 300-series stainless for the superior shine and luster. After all, that's the only part of the exhaust system that's visible on most vehicles anyway.

I have a Banks exhaust on my diesel truck, and the pipes on my truck have the same color as the pipes on the 14.

All hope is NOT lost if you want to use an auto-tuner with an O2 sensor. There is a flat spot on the right side of the stock header pipes in front of cat that is intended for an O2 sensor. Kawasaki uses an O2 sensor on some of the 14's. You could remove the stock headers and have an O2 sensor placed at that location, and you would be alright.

I hope I have not rambled on too much, and that this helps....

If anyone actually knows the material in the stock header pipes, I too would be interested.



Ride Safe...

Black Max
2007 Honda ST1300, Staintunes, Cruise Control, AutoComm, GPS, etc., etc. - A Sport Tourer
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14, Yoshi R77, PCV w/AutoTune, AutoComm - A SUPER Sport Tourer

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privateer


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Location: [random forest]

Joined: 02/16/09

Posts: 3605

RE: Where to place Autotune sensor
08/11/09 4:14 AM

When I get around to putting a PC5 w/ auto-tune on my 08, the stock exhaust is going to be replaced with a Muzzy with bung already on it, anyway. Though Brock has a beautiful 4-2 now which has bungs pre-installed as well.



Living the Gypsy Life

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