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Thread: Schnitz flash ... smooth?

Created on: 07/23/18 12:51 PM

Replies: 48

extrapolator


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Location: N Cent FL

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Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 12:51 PM

Question for those with Schnitz's flash:

Besides Schnitz's stated benefits, did it smooth out your throttle response? I realized after pulling the trigger that their site doesn't claim that, and that's one of the things I was wanting to flash for. My bike's off throttle > on throttle is herky jerkier than I like. Not terrible, but could definitely be smoother.

Thanks

(I had asked chrly this in my Where's Ivan thread, but he must've missed it or not logged in recently)



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chrly


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 7:39 PM

extrap..Been working crazy..and with the heat..work and sleep....or rest ..first year the heat has made me not wont to work...but as to your question....When I put the ecu back on hte bike, I also added a REV2 throttle which I really like . slow down low but increases on the top end if that makes sense? I honestly cannot remember if it made a change but I do know the bike is pretty doggone smooth and I know what you are talking about herky jerk as my lil 300 was like that.

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Rook


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 9:31 PM

I'm curious, is the herky jerkyness only at low rpm/very low throttle position like when you first take off? I have this in 1st and second gear. It's controllable with the clutch or playing back and forth with the throttle. If I'm prowling along barely touching the throttle and close it then open a crack again, there's nothing. I open more and JERK! It's always been an annoyance I've never gotten rid of. Could be TP calibration but I've done that with no change. I'm sure it's not fueling. The AFR is perfect way down there. It doesn't do it in N. Maybe unifying gear mapping will eliminate it. Lock into 6th gear or N mapping maybe. I would almost bet Ivan does that....if this even sounds like the problem you're having. My bike has always done this since new and no mods at all. It gets worse as the motor gets hot.


* Last updated by: Rook on 7/23/2018 @ 9:34 PM *



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cruderudy


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 9:54 PM

I dont know shit about schnitz but the re-flash by Nels at his 2 wheel dyno works is sweet and smooth as glass - better and different than my cblast brick (which according to Nels he got almost correct). Got to feel the power at redline in triple digits this past weekend ride - mind blowing scarey



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piken


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Location: Phoenix, AZ

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 9:59 PM

This is caused by the "Fuel cut on Decel"

Pretty much all FI bikes have it, EPA?

Schnitz's flash turns off the "Fuel cut on Decel" as most flashes do.

The fuel cut on decel was so bad on my ZX10 that while leaned over it
was down right scary to roll the throttle on.

Here's a link to Ivan's explanation, sums it up pretty good.

Watch the vids for great example

Fuel Cut


* Last updated by: piken on 7/23/2018 @ 10:06 PM *

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extrapolator


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Location: N Cent FL

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 10:23 PM

Let me first say my ZX's throttle is not nearly as bad as the Yamaha FJ09 I test rode a couple years ago. That thing was an untamed bucking bronc. That said, I'm talking mainly about situations like cornering on the Dragon: 20-40 mph, midrange RPM ... OK you come into the corner, some engine braking, then open the throttle on exit. It's that off-throttle to on-throttle transition that's jerky. Also happens while maintaining a constant speed then slightly increasing speed.


* Last updated by: extrapolator on 8/9/2018 @ 12:47 PM *



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piken


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 10:32 PM

It's that off-throttle to on-throttle transition that's jerky.

Exactly, this is caused by the "Fuel cut on Decel"

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Rook


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/23/18 11:07 PM


Exactly, this is caused by the "Fuel cut on Decel"

I do like the occasional popping getting back on the gas. I'll live with the herky jerkies for now.



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hagrid


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Location: pittsburgh

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/24/18 5:40 AM

My Ninjee only displayed this behaviour when I changed the final drive ratio.



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extrapolator


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Location: N Cent FL

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/24/18 7:17 AM

Piken - Thanks, I'll see what the Schnitz does.

Rook - Understood. I like the burbling (minor popping) too, and I could live with the throttle the way it is. Just was hoping a flash would improve it. We shall see shortly.



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KoflaOlivieri


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/24/18 11:53 AM

Besides Schnitz's stated benefits, did it smooth out your throttle response? I realized after pulling the trigger that their site doesn't claim that, and that's one of the things I was wanting to flash for. My bike's off throttle > on throttle is herky jerkier than I like. Not terrible, but could definitely be smoother.

.
This guy's flash is all you need.....

He claims to be a "highly motivated individual in charge of bringing maximum torque to the elite! Your bike will run smooth and creamy strong!!!

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extrapolator


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Location: N Cent FL

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/24/18 12:13 PM

This guy's flash is all you need.....

He claims to be a "highly motivated individual in charge of bringing maximum torque to the elite! Your bike will run smooth and creamy strong!!!

Never ever ever ever gonna happen



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mad5674


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Location: Monrovia, IN

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 7:39 PM

Just had mine Schnitzed recently..I wouldn’t call it herky jerky, but it made my ‘15 much more responsive and crisper. And as he claims, much more torque and response from 2k-5k. Absolutely loving it! Oh, also not stated on the site but listed on my invoice that came back with my ecu, he also advances the timing 4 deg. I’m not getting any predetonation/valve clatter like I was prior. Got just the flash with no fuel trims for M4 slips.


* Last updated by: mad5674 on 7/29/2018 @ 7:46 PM *



Mark D.
'15 ZX-14R....here we go again!....center stand; M4 slip-ons; helibars; PCS1 racing filter; MRA touring screen; ZG double bubble screen; Sargent low profile seat; Throttlemeister cc; ProjektD rad guard; Puig hugger; ZG Marc1 ws; fender eliminator, Knight Design 1 3/8 lowered pegs, Schnitz flash.
'08 1600 Vulcan

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extrapolator


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Location: N Cent FL

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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 8:00 PM

Great! Thanks Mad! My ECU arrived at Schnitz 11 a.m. Friday, so I assume it'll be back soon ... looking forward to it!



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extrapolator


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 8:03 PM

Hey, anybody know what the +4 degree timing change accomplishes? And why does Kawi not set it there themselves? Is it an emissions thing?



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mad5674


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 8:06 PM

You’re welcome extrapolator...I think you’ll be impressed, I was/am. Very noticeable improvement!



Mark D.
'15 ZX-14R....here we go again!....center stand; M4 slip-ons; helibars; PCS1 racing filter; MRA touring screen; ZG double bubble screen; Sargent low profile seat; Throttlemeister cc; ProjektD rad guard; Puig hugger; ZG Marc1 ws; fender eliminator, Knight Design 1 3/8 lowered pegs, Schnitz flash.
'08 1600 Vulcan

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mad5674


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 8:08 PM

I think emissions is part of it, along with a more gradual/smoother response. I prefer responsiveness!



Mark D.
'15 ZX-14R....here we go again!....center stand; M4 slip-ons; helibars; PCS1 racing filter; MRA touring screen; ZG double bubble screen; Sargent low profile seat; Throttlemeister cc; ProjektD rad guard; Puig hugger; ZG Marc1 ws; fender eliminator, Knight Design 1 3/8 lowered pegs, Schnitz flash.
'08 1600 Vulcan

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mad5674


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 8:12 PM

I also believe it’s along the same lines of using super sticky tires that don’t last much more than a couple thousand miles from the factory. They’re afraid a newbie will pull out of the dealership n kill themselves with accompanied lawsuits, lol. ;)
As far as smoothness, it just takes a little wrist control, and with the decel fuel cutoff removed, might just feel a little better than stock to ya. I’ll be interested to hear your take on it extrap.


* Last updated by: mad5674 on 7/29/2018 @ 8:25 PM *



Mark D.
'15 ZX-14R....here we go again!....center stand; M4 slip-ons; helibars; PCS1 racing filter; MRA touring screen; ZG double bubble screen; Sargent low profile seat; Throttlemeister cc; ProjektD rad guard; Puig hugger; ZG Marc1 ws; fender eliminator, Knight Design 1 3/8 lowered pegs, Schnitz flash.
'08 1600 Vulcan

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Rook


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 9:14 PM

Hey, anybody know what the +4 degree timing change accomplishes? And why does Kawi not set it there themselves? Is it an emissions thing?

The timing is retarded in gears 1, 2, 3, and 4. Lower the gear, the higher the rpm before the retard is removed. The retarded ignition makes less power. This is another safety backup for people who can't control the throttle. It might be more complex than just advancing 4 degrees. There is a timing map for each gear and every cell has a different number in it so the correction would probably be different for every cell as well. I do not know how nitpicky anyone gets on tuning timing. The tuners who have seen the ECU tables (as I understand it, this requires more than Woolich software but Ivan and Guhl know the timing) know the exact numbers. Romans gave me roundabout numbers and +4 for the lower rpm range is about what he told me. It tapers off as the rpm increases so your doing +3, +2, +1 and finally no correction or even retarding a little for thetop end which I think Romans felt was timed too aggressively. This is all Gen1 info--the Gen2 is a bit different concerning timing.

Your flash will achieve the same or similar results as using a TRE. It's a good thing, you definitely want it for sport riding or having max rider control of the bike's power. I know ironheaad mike installed a TRE on his Gen2 so you might want to ask him about the change it made.

If you run nitrous or turbo, you will want to get that timing reflashed and/or control with your own ignition controller.



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extrapolator


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 9:15 PM

I'll certainly report back ... thanks again for the input



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extrapolator


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 9:32 PM

Rook ... Thanks for the explanation!

Amazing to think we can now time the ignition differently from one gear to the next ...



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extrapolator


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/29/18 9:49 PM

I also believe it’s along the same lines of using super sticky tires that don’t last much more than a couple thousand miles from the factory. They’re afraid a newbie will pull out of the dealership n kill themselves with accompanied lawsuits, lol. ;)

Haha wow ... could be. Like this?


* Last updated by: extrapolator on 7/29/2018 @ 9:54 PM *



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suzy1052


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/30/18 4:40 AM

My wife and I saw a guy do that on a brand new ZX9 at the local Kaw dealer in the springtime about 15 years ago. before he took off on his test ride the salesman told him to take it easy on the cold tires . As soon as he rolled out of the driveway he hit and did a lowside 360. I went back a month or so later and they said he bought the bike before he left lol .

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Rook


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/30/18 10:04 AM

Rook ... Thanks for the explanation!
Amazing to think we can now time the ignition differently from one gear to the next ...

Yeah that is cool that it's possible to adjust timing/gear with a flash. Fueling works the same way, there's a separate map for each gear. A TRE prevents the ECU from recognizing any gear changes and keeps the mapping for timing, flies and fueling on N or 6 which have no restrictions.

It's always been possible to adjust fueling and timing / gear with a PC5 and Ignition Module but few people wanted to mess with all of that. The timing aspect is kind of obscure. Nobody knows the exact timing corrections for any gear except for Ivan and Guhl. The timing curve I described is safe and improves power but you have very small changes in timing / rpm and TP just as you do with fueling. We don't know for sure what those exact numbers are. Here is a Gen1 timing map. As I understand it, the ECU uses this same map for every gear but adjusts the timing for gears 1 through 4 differently for each of those gears.

Here's more info on that if you care to read.

Anyway, if it's optimum performance you're after, it's doubtful there is much if any benefit to having mapping/gear. The timing, flies and fueling that create the most power for 1st gear are the same for every other gear. Using a TRE to lock into a gear map that has no timing restriction (5, 6 or N) and then tuning fueling optimizes power for every gear equally. I suspect most flashes achieve the same effect by unifying the gear mapping for fueling. You still have 6 fuel maps but they are duplicates. I also suspect most flashes use a timing curve such as I described in my previous post. They don't know the exact number of degrees the timing is retarded or exactly what corrections the ECU makes/gear so they go by a generally accepted pattern along with what they can determine by dyno tuning. Romans seemed to feel the basic timing curve I alluded to was good for all gears. He was not into mapping/gear--at least not with a PC5 and Ignition Module...maybe he did it with his flash though--IDK.



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Rook


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RE: Schnitz flash ... smooth?
07/30/18 10:11 AM

However, somebody from Schnitz suggested there was NO timing restriction in any gear!! IDK who answered this but they must have been misinformed.

Hello Daron. The TRE for the ZX-14 does lock the bike into 6th gear, but
this gear does not have any more ignition timing in it than the other 5. I
does allow the secondary throttle blades to open a little bit quicker.

You would be much better off having the ECU Reflashed to adjust the
secondary throttle blades properly and still retain the gear indicator.

Ivan did say the flies response was the main advantage to a TRE....so it may be that timing restriction elimination is only a subtle enhancement.



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