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Thread: Wow, Dual Flash E-85

Created on: 09/08/13 05:17 AM

Replies: 25

Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5926

Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 5:17 AM

Guys saw this link that Nasty posted up this morning. This is truly Awesome news for you guys that have E-85 at the pumps. I'm so jealous, lol,,, but also very happy to know our mid sized injectors will run this Dual Flash For sure,,, No More Guessing. Very Important news for me as I will require 30% more pump fuel for boosted application and I now know these new injectors are up to the job.

As for the HP #'s shown, these may seem small to some as the ZX-14R with Brocks Full Pipe and ECU Mapping is putting down 190hp. Please Note SAE Smoothing 5. You guys will see much different in the STD. RCC posted Same #'s in the same scale and so did a few others. Safe to say close to the Norm with all conditions accounted for.

This is good news for all ZX-14R owners and a no brain er Flash if you have E-85 at your finger tips. For those who get this flash I look forward to reading your before and after comments. Thank you Nasty For the Link,,, Good Read. The progression of the 14R has come a long way in a very short period of time. Truly Awesome. Cheers.


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nasty


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 5:39 AM

I've got 4 ethanol plants that I know of with in a 50 mile radius. At least one pump with E85 in most towns. E15 E30 E85 pick your poison. Seems to make sense to me to have an E85 tune and take advantage of cheap fuel. I look forward to getting one done up!



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 6:25 AM

I've got 4 ethanol plants that I know of with in a 50 mile radius. At least one pump with E85 in most towns. E15 E30 E85 pick your poison. Seems to make sense to me to have an E85 tune and take advantage of cheap fuel. I look forward to getting one done up!

Sweeeet,,,, This cries for a thinner head gasket,,sorry slipped out lol. I have been reading lots on the E-85 in the last couple years. Want it big time. Don't understand why it's not sold here in Canada. Congrats Nasty look forward to your posts.

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zx14racer


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Location: New Jersey

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 6:40 AM

This is what I told you guys here a week or two ago in another thread. They have been using this stuff at the track and some on the street for racing. With a dual flash you go to L mode and bam run your E85 for a lil kick in the pants while racing. Guhls isn't the only one working on this. Its been running around for a little while now, go stuff if you can get it. Its funny how before E85 everyone was saying how they hate getting gas with 10% eth. in it but now we see gas that is made up of 85% of it is great for your bike!!


* Last updated by: zx14racer on 9/8/2013 @ 7:01 AM *



2012 ZX14R.....Brocks CT exhaust,PC5,Gearing,Slammed and Pulled!!!

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nasty


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 6:54 AM

I won't have anything on it until next summer. My riding season ends in a couple weeks so I can start harvesting my crops.



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

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Bobby914


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Location: Chester, VA

Joined: 04/19/13

Posts: 1859

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 7:27 AM

Romes can I set up a pc3/5 for E85 on my 07 or did they change injectors for the stroker motor in the R?



Full Muzzy, flies out,K&N, black wind screen, pc3, pm wheels, blue led gauges and lights, scorpip alarm, roaring toyz kickstand and lowering links, tinted turn sigs.

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nasty


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 7:35 AM

Your 07 actually has larger injectors.



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5926

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 12:32 PM

Romes can I set up a pc3/5 for E85 on my 07 or did they change injectors for the stroker motor in the R?

Bobby from what I can remember the 06,07 had the 430cc injectors and the 08-11 had the 340cc. This new bike is somewhere in the middle. My guess is you would have no problem with E-85 if you are running the bigger injector in the 07 model. If your not the original owner and not sure what injector is in the bike the color is different from each model year, easy to check ?

As for the 08-011 guys,,,, I'm thinking not a good Idea. My reasoning is based on the injectors I have in my Turbo 2010. to get 30% more fuel I had to raise fuel pressure. At full boost With stock 42 psi Injector duty cycle was over at 100% at 7000 RPM. This Spells boom but maybe others will chime in with more info. If it is possible it dame close to the wire.


Its funny how before E85 everyone was saying how they hate getting gas with 10% eth. in it but now we see gas that is made up of 85% of it is great for your bike!!

Yes it is great but if it's not on a switch makes it a little difficult to use. I'm thinking 30% more fuel not good for long trips. Bobby We can flash a switch into your ECU Now or you can install one from power commander. I will post a pic.

Guys what is the cost of E-85 per Liter ?

Pic below shows Dyno Jet map switch. Easy to do this way if you want to flip between Maps for E-85 and regular pump fuel. I run dual flashes and dual maps on my 14R but this can be used in any year ZX-14.


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Bobby914


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Location: Chester, VA

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 12:35 PM

I want that switch Romes, I like going fast!



Full Muzzy, flies out,K&N, black wind screen, pc3, pm wheels, blue led gauges and lights, scorpip alarm, roaring toyz kickstand and lowering links, tinted turn sigs.

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smatlock42


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Manchester, Connecticut

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 1:35 PM

Hmm... They don't have e85 here in the northeast yet. Not that I know of anyways. But this is very interesting.



14 NATION RC
Predator Race Team #42

Ride on Bitches!


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Wolfman



Joined: 03/29/13

Posts: 6714

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 3:04 PM

Romes flash and multiple modes at the switch? I want!!!







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fatsix


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 3:18 PM

Old news...Problem with e85 is that you need to burn more of it. While not great for saving money for everyday commute. It is a viable option to mr12 and other race only fuels. Still, with guhls flash you are running the pcv on top of the ecu flash.




2012 ZX14R CSB


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Hub


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 3:36 PM

six is correct

Old news...Problem with e85 is that you need to burn more of it

We'd run more [corn] hours on the engine to do [more work] whereas gallon per gallon you could not match the same output.

Think of it as a pound of corn [gas] and a pound of [light sweet crude] gas. Who has more energy stored? Isn't a pound of gas making more energy than a pound of TNT? Stick of butter my chamber.



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5926

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 4:55 PM

Still, with guhls flash you are running the pcv on top of the ecu flash.

What makes you say this ?

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/08/13 4:59 PM

It is a viable option to mr12 and other race only fuels. Still, with guhls flash you are running the pcv on top of the ecu flash.


If it is so cheap and available all the time works No ?

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nasty


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University of Okoboji

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/15/13 10:03 AM

Hey Romans! I came across this little tidbit of an article about boost and E85 I think you might find interesting! I know it did!

forced induction with E85


* Last updated by: nasty on 9/15/2013 @ 10:18 PM *



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

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Romans


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Posts: 5926

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/15/13 9:44 PM

Yes good read,,, makes the mind wonder,,,, wish we had it here in Canada.

My main question was what benefit makes anyone want to use it in the first place;
e85 is an amazing fuel. Let's break down why:
It has more oxygen in it than gasoline, much more. This allows you to get more oxygen in the combustion chamber than you normally would. Even though this oxygen is bonded to the rest of the ethanol molecule before combustion, it's still burned in the cylinder, just like nitrous. The stoichiometric ratio of e85 is approximately 9.6:1 and gasoline's is approximately 14.7:1, so not only do you have more fuel to burn, but more oxygen, too! This is why most cars will make 15-20% more power on e85 than with even the highest octane race gasoline. (Chemically, the most power you could make would be 27% more than gasoline, but that's hard to reach due to other restrictions).
It reduces intake air temperatures four times more than gasoline when injected into the air fuel mixture at proper air-to-fuel ratios. This is because alcohol requires more energy to evaporate than gasoline does and you're also injecting about 35% more of it into the air fuel mixture than you are with gasoline. To prove this to yourself, imagine (or actually do it, safely!) dipping your fingers in gasoline and placing them in front of a fan. Your fingers would get pretty cold. Then imagine dipping your entire hand in alcohol and placing it in front of the same fan, it would get much, much colder.
e85 has an American octane rating of approximately 105, but the American test for octane rating (MON) uses a preheated air-fuel mixture at 300 degrees! This means that they inject e85 into the air and then heat that mixture to 300*F. This is why the commonly known octane rating of 105 is innacurate for e85. Preheating the air-fuel mixture doesn't accurately model intake temperatures that are so significantly lowered by e85 in real world applications. Because of the heat-lowering effectiveness of e85, it's more accurate octane rating is between 112 and 118. Because of this you can run higher compression, more boost, or both!
It burns faster than gasoline. At a 1:1 air fuel ratio, gasoline burns at 26cm/sec and ethanol burns at 41cm/sec. As you lean the air-to-fuel ratio, Ethanol continues to burn faster than gasoline. This is a major advantage over gasoline because it allows you to use more retarded ignition timing while still extracting maximum power out of the fuel. Retarded ignition timing is good because it allows you start the powerstroke later and harness the mechanical advantage the rod has on the crank as it's tilted rather than directly above crank. This also significantly reduces the shock the piston, rod and crank experience when the explosion happens before or during top dead center.
In our cars it lowers oil and water temperature about 15*F and exhaust gas temperatures by 200*F! A colder engine is a longer lasting one!

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/21/13 4:24 PM

Any one here talk to Don about this Flash ?

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Hub


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/21/13 5:59 PM

Why talk to Don? He pulls 111 torque and some other flash Pulls 119? I'd call sea, sea seen your HP Curve?



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Cblast


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/21/13 6:46 PM

Why talk to Don? He pulls 111 torque and some other flash Pulls 119? I'd call sea, sea seen your HP Curve




14 NATION
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Romans


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/21/13 7:04 PM

Why talk to Don?

Don was the 1st in Flash business and is currently the only one I know of to offer a E-85 Dual tune. Two flashes for price of one ? SAE smoothing 5 scale shown in video may contribute to the lower #'s

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Hub


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RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/21/13 7:25 PM

I'm taking names and numbers. I want to see RG or 'The Hand" run this map of yours. If this crew cannot get 120 out of the same program they see is what you see is a bin file, right?

212hp when a gp bike has 260? Nice street bike of the day, no? This is the 2+2 bike I've been barking about and now here it is.

You know what? Mo Moan Knee my reach around. I was thinking of this. I'm going to take a guess about this PC5 thing. This is where I can't let go of the piggy+flash. I'm after smooth. Why can't I have rip'inn smooth?

Enter the 5 setting that map to 02 it smoothly? I'd have the best of both worlds, yes? Romes, follow me here. Did I just say, PC5 me puts me in the flash that is burned, or same as saying, I'm going to use a pig off of the stock ECU's maps, so flash is looking as a [stock] same old ECU in the 200+ range who cares... Smooth my ass 02 me!

More on the lines of what Ivan addresses or say, smoothing is his[my] way of thinking. This is street, no race mentality. So for me, I'm aiming for that "flastoic" call it. We can button off the 5 completely. This now reads the raw flash, no smoothing, or toggle back for the 02 to take over again?

Did you follow those toggles? $oundueable? Or is this a plug end that fits [plug specific] into the box for that toggle; off the pinch bolt?



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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Posts: 5926

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/22/13 6:19 AM

If this crew cannot get 120 out of the same program they see is what you see is a bin file, right?

This puts us into the Dyno wars again. Which IMO has started bad feelings around here already,,,as it has in most forums. That bike above is fully piped Brock set up and made 190hp, that is a great # on that Dyno and that scale on that day with those conditions. I would Never claim to make more. Dyno being just being a measuring tool of before and after My bike would have no more than his(maybe less). Don's no fool in this area,,,heck he started it.

I bought my PCV from a member in Florida who had Don's full ECU Flash with fuel and Timing maps. That was in back 2012 when these bikes came out,,, we here are very late to the game compared to Don and are just now walking a path he has been on for a long time(pro). That being said we have Allot of catching up to do. If Don's has made you a E85 dual-Flash rest assured you did not waste your money.

I'm going to take a guess about this PC5 thing. This is where I can't let go of the piggy+flash. I'm after smooth. Why can't I have rip'inn smooth?

Well you can but this requires some use of the flies, now the hard hit falls. Remember all those years I preached take them out, you stayed your ground leave them in,,,, I made a smooth flash with awesome power using the flies for the Smooooothh. (The flies play a major roll in the decell pop, full pipe hint)

But, just as before back in day guys who buy ZX-14s want Full Raw, now In comes full flies open map,,, This Can never be as smooth as to much power is on tap. Sure Is lots of fun though lol. Still my fav. But dual purpose flash can give you both. Hub I data logged our fuel cells in the cruzzzz. If you can make your flash all stock below 10% then have flies open you will have both Dual purpose Flash. Where problem comes in guys will compare one to other,,,thinking one has more. It never ends. This bike only makes what it makes as you have often explained in BTUs. The cyclinder only holds so much fuel and so much air The END. If one zx14 makes 25 more hp than another on a diff dyno what does that tell us ? Tells me Net Feuds is about to start. Why I will never know.

Enter the 5 setting that map to 02 it smoothly? I'd have the best of both worlds, yes? Romes, follow me here. Did I just say, PC5 me puts me in the flash that is burned, or same as saying, I'm going to use a pig off of the stock ECU's maps, so flash is looking as a [stock] same old ECU in the 200+ range who cares... Smooth my ass 02 me!

Hub I always knew you would go this route. If you want it all you have too. I do the flashes and I have a PCV 02 sensors welded in. I did this because live tuning inside the ECU is not available Yet,,,, when it is that's a new game all over again. Our current flashes will be a poor hack in comparison.

More on the lines of what Ivan addresses or say, smoothing is his[my] way of thinking. This is street, no race mentality.


I would love to here what AFR #'s you are after in the when and the where while chasing the smooth. Smooth cost power below 100% throttle but you know this and raw is not what your after.

This now reads the raw flash, no smoothing, or toggle back for the 02 to take over again?

Here is the test.

1)Install flash

2) Wide Band 2

3) Run Auto Tune Software

4) Use readings to rebuild Flash to perfect

5) Re test AFR #'s Auto Tune will read almost all Zero's

6) Forward RPM ride, in the middle of the wind up, Flip Switch

This is how I do it. Simple, if you want to go this far to get your map perfect for your bike in your area here is a way.

Did you follow those toggles? $oundueable? Or is this a plug end that fits [plug specific] into the box for that toggle; off the pinch bolt?

Very doable keep working the science. It helps us all.

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Wolfman



Joined: 03/29/13

Posts: 6714

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/22/13 6:10 PM

A straight up interesting read dudes!
W. I have so much to learn boyz!







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rod442


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Posts: 467

RE: Wow, Dual Flash E-85
09/24/13 5:23 AM

Romans, forgive me for a question that may have been asked. Are you close to an e-85 flash option?

My full brocks (ct duals) will be here in a week or so, and when its here I will have that, a bmc filter, a pc-v (brocks map), and some flash (undecided which, for sure). I am also doing the alisyn oil and petron additive.

Basically, I want to copy Brocks work on his project bike. That way, if there is an issue; I can say I followed your suggestions and not have to play games with possible miss-matched parts. Then, the shop doing the install work will fine tune the bike on the dyno, if it needs anything.

The shop definitely wants the ecu work done before any fine tuning, but if I can get results like wolf, grn14, cblast etc for a bit less than Don's flash; I will. If my only route for the e-85 (now) is to have Don give me the brocks flash on the high side, and the e-85 on low side; I will.

I respect your guys input, and would love to have tried multiple flash's (like grn); but Im also not going to pay the shop to try multiple dyno tuning sessions. They will fine tune the e-85 side at a later date.

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