Hi all

the ZX 14 has a catalytic converter in its header. However, it doesn't appear to have the O2 sensor that typically goes with a catalytic converter as found in cars. The O2 sensor in a car monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust before it hits the catalytic converter and that information is typicaly used in a control circuit to monitor and adjust the air fuel mixture by contorlling the amount of fuel injected. So, the ZX 14 fuel injection system, even though it has a catalytic converter, is missing the typical control system to continuously adjust air fuel mixture on the fly. It is essentially a "dumb" system, that relies on pre-sets in the fuel injection map.

My first issue relates to the way that the dyno operators get their air/fuel ratio information, by sticking an exhaust "sniffer" probe up the muffler, taking the air fuel ratio readings AFTER the catalytic conveter. The "cat" has both reduction and oxidation catalysts in it, meaning in plain English that the cat reduces unburned hydrocarbons by oxidizing/burning them. Surely the exhuast gas sniffers used by the dyno operators are providing a false reading of the actual air fuel ratio of a ZX 14, as the reading they are taking is from the muffler, after the cat burns off a bunch of the otherwise burned fuel in the exhaust, which has to result in the reading of the dyno gas sniffer showing the air fuel ratio in the muffler as much leaner than it actually is before it hits the cat?????????????

so, when my ZX 14 with a stock exhaust system was run recently on the dyno, with the dyno operator shoving the exhaust gas sniffer up the stock muffler, the exhaust gas ratio shown on the resulting Dyno Jet chart is showing the exhaust gas ratio AFTER the cat has oxidized/burned off a bunch of the unburned fuel that was in the exhaust before it hit the cat, right???? So, unless the Dyno Jet software has some correcting factor in it for the cat, the resulting exhaust gas ratio chart has to be showing the actual exhaust gas ratio as being much leaner than it actually is before it hits the cat???

So, how the heck can you tune for a proper effective fuel air ratio on a ZX 14 that stil has its cat in place? The dyno my bike was run on is typically used for tuning HAlrey's, and the operator wasn't able to answer my question about the effect of the cat on the air fuel readings he was taking with his gas sniffer, and I wasn't prepared to have him buoild me a custom map on the basis of the gas sniffer stuffed up the stock muffler. Seems to me that the resulting map would have to be rich, even thought eh gas sniffer would then show it to be perfect when the gas sniffer read the exhaust stream AFTER the cat?

So, those running a complete replacement exhuast that removes the cat would then be getting as "true" a fuel air ratio reading as possible from the gas sniffer. Those preferring to keep the stock header (to be able to leave installed a center stand, for example) and add dual slip ons onto the stock header and cat, will be getting a much less accurate reading, and a much effectively richer custom map if done on the same equipment?

I am no expert with fuel injection. I am highly expert with setting up and dialing in carbs on older race bikes. The quality of the result is entirely dependant on the quality of the information available in the dial in process. I am just trying to understand how to dial in the fuel injection on a ZX 14 properly, with a cat still in place. The chart resulting from my initial dyno session shows my ZX 14 running rich from about 3,800 rpm on up, and getting progressively richer as rpm's increase. That is with the gas sniffer taking its readings from a muffler, AFTER the cat has presumably already greatly reduced the level of unburnned fuel in the exhaust stream by further oxidyzing/burning that otherwise unburned fuel. So, seems to me, that the fuel injection settings must be much richer than the fuel air ratio shown by the dyno chart.

I have gone ahead and ordered a PC V, an autotuner, and dual Yosh slip ons, from Fuelmoto last week, and am waiting for them to arrive. Seems to me that the autotuner, taking its readings from a wide band O2 sensor AHEAD of the catalytic converter, may be the only way avaialble to me to proeprly dial in the fuel air mixture, and that when that fuel air mixture map is set using the information from the O 2 sensor ahead of the cat, that if the cat is doing its job, the resulting chart readings of air fuel mixture taken on a dyno by a sniffer stuck up the tail pipe is going to show the result as dangerously lean???

Enquiring minds would like to know. Anyone?

Paul

ps - is there a spell checker here on this site anywhere? I desperately need one, as you can clearly see, above.....

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 8/5/2009 @ 9:59 AM *

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Hi, Paul.

No spell checker on the site, but if you use Firefox, it has one built in. Highly recommended... -bg

If your going to use slip on's that's two cats gone. Then you might think about digging out the cat in the header while you have it off to weld on the bung. Shouldn't have to strictly speaking. Because I'm guessing you'll probably weld the bung in the collector up-stream of the cat in the header.

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If the dyno shows you it starts to bleed rich from said rpm and above, how is it the cat is showing a rich set after the cat on the nip is the tip is sniffing over rich? Now you set the SlowPEESee where dis is going is you are going to go fat even more is cat the piss out of the over rich bike is Slow, tell 'em.

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Hub,
I'm feelin bad that all your knowledge is going right over my head.
Can anyone interpret for me?

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90% of Hub's knowledge gets lost in translation. 'Tis a pity.

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If the dyno shows you it starts to bleed rich from said rpm and above,

I thought you figured out the bike is rich from the start is stock is rich, is it not? Check some dyno charts of the fuel trim that read the 17:1 A/Fratio on the dip, then turns rich the more you speed up. That is what I got from this quote is tell 'em, Slow.

how is it the cat is showing a rich set after the cat...

If the cat burned off that rich set so the sniff is still reading rich, how come are you about to add more rich if you know it runs rich to begin with... Tell 'em, Slow.

... on the nip is the tip is sniffing over rich?

I would think so is you add the cat nip to the nose of a cat, they jump around like too many fuel molecules now. Looks over rich to me, kittyum drops.

Now you set the SlowPEESee

WATThe hell? You want to spit more cat hurl is kennel cough out the cat is over taxed now, buy sniffers you had to have one, is tell 'em, Slow!

where dis is going is

Right down the tubes. That's right. I thought we were on the same page as, Slow, but don't you know; I've been watching his tuning step was up on speed is tell 'em, Slow!

you are going to go fat even more

You add that pig to the tune up is, Slow went slower.

is cat the piss out of the over rich bike is Slow, tell 'em.

Did Slow figure out the tune is in the wrist is just get on the bike?

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I recently inquired into the cost of a dynotune and custom map. I asked if I needed an O2 sensor for them to do the tune. They said no, as long as I have a PCIII they did not need one. I can only assume that there is a known factor to use on bikes with cats, whether its three (stock) or one (with slip ons.) The maps provided by PC are created in their own facility where they could develop the factor. They want to put on the market a product that is more or less plug-n-play, and not force potential users to add the O2 bung and sensor.
So as long as we're assuming we'll have to assume that the Dyno-tune equipment is programmed with this factor for the bikes that need it. I have, however heard of guys being asked to add the bung before coming in for a tune. For an auto tune drvice it's obvious that you need a sensor to provide feedback for auto adjustments.
I forgot to ask and I'm still not sure that they can do the tune at 2500ft lower elevation than my home and be able to compensate for the difference. Although setting up for an aauto tune is a lot more work it's still like a sore dick!
(You can't beat it!)

* Last updated by: Sharkey on 8/8/2009 @ 7:08 PM *

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Sharkey, There are two 14.7 sensors. One is the intake vacuum, the other is under the seat is how high up you go in altitude. When the bike starts up, it is set at that pressure on the sensor. That is how the bike can start and rejet itself for any altitude.

The math says less pressure to push molecules together the higher you go. That pressure on the wafer is going to plot a lean number and start right up.

Your dyno guy needs to now adjust his baro for that day, have a clean filter at the sniffer, and now you pay for that time on the dyno is it is pretty much preset for the day's map.

Colder day, different room temp and an adjust to the baro, you once again have a custom map for the day. Are you going to use that map during the whole year?

Are we on the same page or 90% off in degrees once again you do not get it.

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Well Hub, It's good to hear that there is a self adjusting aspect for altitude. I never thought about using different maps for different seasons. I know guys like to switch between performance and econo modes, but I mostly want only to jam around the hills here and I'm not concerned with economy. I can dig how setting the baro is essential to starting with a good baseline. I was looking for a "middle of the road" map for mostly non freeway riding. The last 15 years I worked I commuted on a bike. Freeways are parking lots for idiots. There's enough backroads to go anywhere you want. And I'm in no hurry. "No officer I'm not in a hurry...I just like to go fast!"

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... It's good to hear that there is a self adjusting aspect for altitude. I never thought about using different maps for different seasons.

The old drag racing days have not changed. Carb tuning was to watch the temp/baro change/alt setting; of the drag strip/race course is still the same "adjusting for altitude."

The select map pops up, the telemetry takes it from there as if it were an 02 sensor. That is my guess as how a digital map would take over knowing it has to set parameters. So, there are tre type maps if you need to think like that.

Why would I light up a tre map if it signals more of a limp map? I know that bike romps the road bone stock. I set that limp she nosedives. I set some trim, she nose dives.

I can feel the setting go off song and that messing around with the trim is the cause. Cause and effect is to run the trim till it stumbles. Back it off till it does not. You are set for that day.

Think about you starting up on the same map. Think about starting up on the day's trim... Who is gonna Win?

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Say nothing! Except to Slow. [I didn't say that].

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so I guess I am still stuck on my original questions. Looks to me that a gas sniffer up the tail pipe, with the exhaust passing through the cats before it gets to the sniffer, has to be giving an essentially false reading to the gas sniffer. That false reading has to be showing the mixture as leaner than it really it is, as the cats clean up some of the unburned fuel before the exhaust gets to the sniffer. So, tuning to the sniffer readings on a dyno, taking the readings after the cats, has to be resulting in the real air fuel mixture still being TOO RICH even though the gas sniffer is showing the air fuel mixture as optimum??

I don't accept that the dyno software has some correcting factor in it for catalytic convertor equipped bikes, my local Dyno Jet operator didn't have a clue when I asked him, and he took the DynoJEt course in Vegas......

I am still waiting for the PC V, autotuner, and Yosh slip ons that I ordered from fuelmoto, finally just received an e mail that they have now shipped, eight days after I paid them in full.

the only way I can see to get accurate tuning information is from a wide band O2 sensor reading BEFORE the exhaust hits the cats, which the autotuner should achieve. Can a Dyno Jet operator take exhaust info from the O2 sensor once installed?

Paul

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laverda said:

my local Dyno Jet operator didn't have a clue

Ain't that a bitch! It's so sad that this is true of so many service people out there. Over the years I've learned to do most things myself. Now I hate to pay someone who probebly can't do it as well as I can.
Anyway my concept of a correction factor was an educated guess.
I don't see any other way you can get accurate reads on combustion except with an O2 sensor in the right spot.
As far as I can see the sniffer in the 14's tail pipe collects useless information without some kind of correction.
I think putting the sensor where you said is the right thing to do.

Hub said:

Think about you starting up on the same map. Think about starting up on the day's trim... Who is gonna Win?

Now you have me thinking. I mount the PC under the seat. I go out, get my finger wet and stick it into the air, and then with my talented brain calibrated I push da buttons on the little piggy and I'm good-ta-go fer the day.
I already know your thoughts, Hub, about letting someone else work on your stuff.

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yeah, I don't usually let anyone else touch my stuff, I have been building my own racing engines forever, high end vintage bike restorations, etc, but the sad reality with the ZX 14 is I don't have a dyno of my own, the local dyno jet operator cites insurance and liability issues when I tried to talk him into just renting me the time and space on his dyno WITHOUT his so called expert assistance, and he doesn't seem willing to even consider that the cats may be skewing his gas sniffer readings.

that is why I ordered the PC V and the autotuner, hoping it will give me real world exhaust gas information and the ability to tune to it myself, but I guess I'll see whether I make things better or worse.

My best case scenario would still be running the bike on the dyno and taking the fuel/air ratio reading from a wideband O2 bung in the header ahead of the cat if that is possible, and building an initial custom map from that, then having the autotuner fine tune that over time on the street. I am at roughly 3,800 feet base altitude, and often head west into the close by mountain range, so good to know from Hub that the system compensates for altitude change.

I am going to phone Dyno Jet directly myself and see if I can get an answer to some of these questions....

Paul

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Say you are on a treadmill and haul ass on it. Say you take a shit now. That is the sniffer watching you pound out the gray matter. What the sniffer is reading is the amount of shit out the ass. You are missing the hauling ass part on the treadmill and must ignore the sniffer.

Am I chasing peak tq/hp or peak poop ratio? Why would I squid out and say, "I'm gonna run 13.8 to 1 is no, my buddy yelled for a map at 12.1 to 'One Flew Over The Coo-Coo's Nest."

Did I say, "squid?"

Ready ~ Set ~ Arm Drop!

Hose the ratio going for ya? Shit, your bike waslow down the front straights. Like you had the brakes on or something. Almost ratio'd in my pants I was gonna take you out or ride over you.

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/11/2009 @ 12:22 PM *

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I talked directly to the DynoJet technical people today.

There are NO correction factors in the DynoJet software to take into account catalytic convertors on the ZX 14 or any other cat equipped bikes.

The air/fuel ratio readings taken from an exhaust sniffer placed after the cats will read artificaly LEAN, as the cats are oxidizing/catalyzing a good bit of otherwise unburned fuel, before the exhaust gets to the tailpipe sniffer.

a DynoJet air/fuel ratio taken on a cat equipped bike by a sniffer up the tail pipe is NOT to be used to tune a map for best power for the bike. The advice from Dyno Jet technical is to completely ignore the air/fuel readings from the sniffer, and tune only for best power, even if best power results in a sniffer reading of say 15:1 air/fuel, which was the example the DynoJet tech gave me.

so, if the DynoJet tuner builds a custom map for a cat equipped bike based on the air/fuel readings from the sniffer stuck up the tail pipe, the actual result in the real world will be a bike running so rich as to be down on power/torque......

a GOOD DynoJet operator will know that they can take the air/fuel sniffer apart to access the actual hookup for a wideband O2 sensor, and will connect directly to a wideband O2 sensor in the header if the bike has been so equipped, otherwise a GOOD DynoJet operator will IGNORE the inaccurate air/fuel ratio generated by the sniffer up the exhaust after the cats, tune for max power, resulting in a custom map which will read LEAN from the sniffer up the tail pipe, maybe 15:1 or worse, on the fuel/air ratio as measured by the sniffer.

The only way to get an accurate air/fuel ratio reading to tune to, on cat equipped bikes, is from a wideband O2 sensor installed in the header ahead of the cats. So, for all of us that have installed dual slip ons onto a stock cat equipped header, an individually generated custom map done by a tuner relying on air/fuel ratios from a sniffer up the tail pipe is going to suck big time in the real world, being in reality way rich, unless the tuner ignores the air/fuel ratio readings entirely and tunes only from the power/torque readings from repeated runs.

Looking at some of the dyno charts posted in the dyno results thread, the cat equipped bikes tuned to an optimum air/fuel ratio when custom mapped, likely are set to run way rich, and likely have a ton of room for further improvement if done by someone who takers the effect of the cats on the air/fuel ratio into account, and essentially ignores the false readings of the sniffer up the tail pipe......

So, either put on a full system, no cats, then tune to optimum relatively accurate air/fuel ratio as indicated by the sniffer up the pipe, or if keeping the stock header and installing dual slip ons, DO NOT let the dyno operator tune to the air/fuel ratio indicated from the sniffer up the tail pipe. I'll bet that a lot of the larger gains seen from a full system as opposed to dual slip ons may be coming from the cat equipped bikes with dual slip ons being tuned way too rich by ignorant DynoTune operators.......

it also looks like it would be worthwhile for someone with a stock exhaust with all cats in place to also install a wideband O2 sensor in the header if intending to have the bike dynotuned, and insist that the dyno operator take the air/fuel readingsd directly from the wideband sensor...

now I want to know how the maps are bing generated by the aftermarket tuners for dual slip on equipped bikes. If they are building the maps from wide band O2 sensors installed in the headers, good on them. If they are building their custom maps from a sniffer up the tail pipe after the cats, the maps are going to be way rich, and bike owners are not going to know even if they run their bikes on a DynoJet equipped with a sniffer up the tail pipe, as the readings from the DynoJet are also going to be false, indicating optimum mixture whan the mixture is in reality way rich...

my local "trained" DynoJet operator does NOT have a clue about any of this. He wanted to happily take $350 of my hard earned money to build me a custom map based on the air/fuel readings from the gas sniffer up the tail pipe of one of the dual slip ons after the cat in the header. Odds are very high his custom map would have resulted in the bike running way rich, not performing to what it is actually capable of. Hopefully there are lots of bright DynoJet tuners who actually understand this stuff and the operation of the cat and its "falsing" of the air/fuel readings from the sniffer, I just need to find one close enough to me.......

also as a matter of interest, the DynoJet tech avice was to NOT bother having a custom map done if fitting an autotune, I was told that the auto tune will give a much more accurate and more optimum result over time. Might explain why the DynoJet mobile operator about an hour and a half north of me is presently desperately trying to sell his DynoJet mobile setup, when I ran my Zx 14 in stock form to get an initial baseline, he said to me that in the longer term the autotuner will likely put him out of business anyway. Interesting issues, to me anyways.

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 8/11/2009 @ 10:56 PM *

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Will a header from an '06 or '07 bolt up on an '08? Mine is an '06 and it doesn't have the cat in the header. Only has the two in the stock cans. I don't think that the 3rd cat was added until 2008.

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the 06/07 header will bolt up to an 08/09 head, but is a lot "skinnier", smaller diameter pipe. The 06/07 mufflers won't bolt up to an 08 header as the 08 header is much larger in o.d., than the i.d. of the 06/07 cans. The 08/09 mufflers are much larger in i.d. than the o.d of the 06/07 header, and won't connect to the 06/07 header. The exhaust performance upgrade for the 06/07 is to go to a much larger diameter 08/09 exhaust for better exhaust flow.

Paul

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The advice from Dyno Jet technical is to completely ignore the air/fuel readings from the sniffer, and tune only for best power, even if best power results in a sniffer reading of say 15:1 air/fuel, which was the example the DynoJet tech gave me.

^^^ We have a winner!

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thanks, Hub. I had to work it out for myself, as a lot of what I have been reading on some of these ZX 14 forums concerning air/fuel ratio tuning just hasn't been making sense to me. Seems like there is a lot of misinformation floating around, and people possibly not acheiving the results they were hoping for with these custom maps, when the maps at least for catalytic convertor equipped bikes are being built from inaccurate source information when a gas sniffer up the muffler, after the cats, is being used.

as I am sure you know, and for the benefit of some of the other readers, after 35 years of building high performance motors I have come to the very basic conclusion that all engine tuning ever really boils down to is realizing that any engine is just a big air pump, and the more air you can get in, and then get out, as efficiently as possible and at just the right times while effectively managing the heat produced, the more power results. Minor changes like fuel map tweaking and exhaust system changes are just tiny first steps that aren't likely to generate huge gains, as nothing fundamental is being changed to move much more air through the motor.

so, all I am hoping for right now, with the PC V, autotuner, and Yosh dual slips ons, is to fine tune on the basics Kawasaki has provided, and I will also check the basics like making sure that the cams are actually accurately timed to Kawasaki factory spec. If I ever get serious with trying to gain a lot more power from this motor, the motor will have to come out, head off, and the appropriate changes made, but for now the bike makes more than enough power as is for my use of it as a sport tourer, complete with GIVI V 35 bags........

Paul

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Tune for best HP, that's what I would do. But the thing that would get my curiosity up is, what about the tune for higher speeds, taking the compressed ram air system into consideration. Ever see a Dyno Tuner ram 150mph air into the front of the bike?
Will the auto tune be so slick and recognize a different tune at higher speeds? Would it lean out with all that extra air coming in the air box?
My thinking is that our 14 is set purposely a little rich to account for the ram air at higher speeds.
I'm not to sure that the ECM on the bike is reading speeds and having a map to adjust to this condition, but I could be wrong and maybe they have it all figured out.

Something to ponder about.

It's the young kids tuning now that need this stuff, laverda, not us old farts.

And funny you should mention, pilot, "a map to adjust to this condition, but I could be wrong and maybe they have it all figured out." >> And more than you can imagine. I tried to explain just that part on another post, extra. Just an extra puzzle to add so as to back up the sooty air cleaner element crank sensor speed to TPS throttle opening on the electrical reverse equal ping from high voltage having a low voltage ying and yang the fuel metering.

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Hi extrapilot

I agree completely, you won't be able to duplicate real world ram air on a dyno, which is where the real time air/fuel information from the broadband O2 sensor installed into the header comes in, feeding real world actual air/fuel ratio informnmation to the autotuner. That real world information can then be used to trim the fuel map to acheive an optimum real world result that may not look so good when run on a dyno without the ram air effect.....

for the moment, I think the only way to get real world information is from a broadband O2 sensor taking its readings from the header. On the Harley setup they use TWO O2 sensors, one in each exhaust pipe, to tune each cylinder individually. On the ZX 14, very best case would be FOUR O2 sensors, one in each header pipe, but for now one sensor in the collector in the header is good enough information. On the old air cooled Laverda triple motors I build and tune, we weld a bung into each of the three header pipes, and usually set the carb for the middle cylinder a little richer to aid in cooling it and prevent the center cylinder from overheating. For these applicatiuns, I use an Innovate LM2 to get accurate air/fuel ratio readings from wide band sensors, then use that information to physically make changes to the carbs jetting, needles, float height, slides, etc. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

the Power Commander allows adding or subtracting percentages from Kawasaki's base map for the fuel injection, at small steps in opening of the throttle, and at each step increase in rpm. The autotuner allows a particular air/fuel ratio to be specified in the same increments. The art is in finding out what air/fuel ratio makes the most power at each step........ a lot of the maps shoot for around 12.8 - 13.2 parts air to 1 part fuel, or even leaner, up to about 13.6. As for what makes the most power? Would be tough to determine on a dyno which doesn't take the real world ram air into account.

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 8/14/2009 @ 9:08 PM *

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Look around the room you are in. Short of the lamp and the electrics running as you read this, would you agree that everything in the room is at, "room temperature?"

If I ride in the air pressure at a sustained speed, would you agree the pressure is even all over the bike? If I have exposed air cleaners and that pressure into the pleats would be the same pressure against the stock air cleaner via the vent tunnels?

What if they jetted the engine at crank speed times throttle position opening and could care less about ram effect. What if you saw a pressure gauge show zero movement. What if it showed you more the venturi sucking in more air than any ram effect can keep up with the more you open the throttle.

If you can hear the air being sucked out of the ram chamber at high rpm speed, how was that ram compensated for if you can hear the air being sucked dry?

I have two videos that one, shows the needle being sucked in the action/reaction mode. I also have video, where I can ear the velocity come into the air cleaner, or more it is the gulp of a human sound is take a deep breath with your mouth open and that is the sound on the Mustang pass. About where that motor-home is left standing on the sit and wait, I'll be dare is a second or two is close down that Mustang fa get in the back, you ain't got the game for dishit.

NoWOT, lav? I am disproving your ram by 1Atmo. I am disproving your ram is tuned to the bike is not if the ram is gone is I have to walk that ram on the video and now believe you or the ram ain't in effect. Are we not back to crank speed times the same air suck?

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