First off, let me say that the guys at the DynoJet in Belgrade MT are top notch.
I think they went beyond what was required. Doing this on a Friday and staying and help getting the bike reloaded in the truck. Explaining everything in detail. And giving me there personal cell numbers if I had questions, issues, or just wanted to talk about my feelings. Thanks Tim & Chad.

My '08 only has M4 Retro slipons. No other performance enhancing mods before the PC 5.
Tim did a great job at evening out the air/fuel ratio from stock as you can see noted on the graph.

The graph shows the rear wheel horse power at 168.32HP at 132MPH at 9600RPM.
If you have any questions, please ask. I may not have every answer, but I can get it from Tim or Chad.

Stock vs PC5 Comparison.

HP vs RPM.

HP vs Speed.

Wow, thats impressive 11HP difference up top. They really smoothed out the A/F ration with a 13.1 across the board.

Yes that is what I thought was the most impressive part of the whole mapping.

I'm brand new to these bikes but I've read they are really rich on the top-end and it looks like during your original pull, they do get fat above 110 m.p.h.

It looks like your tuner nailed a really nice A/F across the board...and a nice power gain..

Do the slip-ons eliminate any of the cats??

Thanks!

Ronnie

* Last updated by: RapidRonnie on 3/11/2009 @ 8:24 PM *

It doesnt eliminate the cat on the 08 and 09 bikes in the header. THat is why you need a full exhaust on the 08 and 09.

Thanks for the reply.
The looks of the factory exhaust PIPES prior to going into the mufflers is a little weird, i.m.h.o.. I may just powder coat them black for now. But, on topic here, if the performance exhausts eliminate ALL the cats, do they stink (like an old performance car) without them?

So far, I have just put a deposit on a (new) 2008 Midnight Sapphire Blue ZX-14, same color as yours I see.... It is still cold here but Spring has to come eventually!!

Ronnie

PS- How can you tell if someone is online on this Forum- Other than you answering me that is... :)

* Last updated by: RapidRonnie on 3/11/2009 @ 8:07 PM *

So, does installing the slip-ons requiring any simms or reprogramming of the e.c.u. or will it just accept the mod?

Looking at the dyno pull again, the power drops with the modified map between 85 and 100 m.p.h. It almost looks like it wants to be richer through that range; or is the timing map changed as well?? It looks like it occurs right when the engine gets up on the cam, but it is hard to tell....

Thanks (again)

Ronnie

* Last updated by: RapidRonnie on 3/12/2009 @ 11:27 AM *

If you look at the dyno comparison again CLOSELY you will see that the dip in HP between 85 and 100 MPH is actually the old map, not the modified one. My guess is that is where the secondary blades start to open up more as you can see the ECU with no adjustment adding additional fuel right at that point.

You can bolt on most any mod to any fuel injected bike and it will run. Not saying it will run well, but it will still run. To fully optimize your bolt on upgrades the fuel and or timing will more then likely need to be tuned.

Using this post as an example, the before graph is the result of ZERO tuning AND the new pipes bolted on. Obviously the bike is running rich therefore tuning the bike netted a 10whp increase, as shown in the after graph.

Does anyone take into the "ram air" effect when dyno tuning? Would it be lean at higher road speeds if mapped stationary on the dyno?

Nat

In a way yes. There is a large hood in front of the bike that blows air directly into the front of the bike, however the flow of air does not change wrt wheel speed. Also, the amount of air being rammed in under high load at high speeds will be compensated for by the ECU using the MAP sensor. Testing has been done to compare the two setups (with ram air and without ram air) and the difference in AFR is very minimal, ~0.1 AFR change. On a bike with carbs the difference was greater, since there is no control unit monitoring the conditions and compensating accordingly.

"Testing has been done to compare the two setups (with ram air and without ram air) and the difference in AFR is very minimal, ~0.1 AFR change." I study my videos over and over and I heard [tired to see if you guys heard that suck] is my Reggie WOT on the Mustank is RAM'd it up that theory is way more on the suck than the ram effect is you cannot keep up with the suck at WOT is so obvious in the audio. The sound is so human is open your mouth and suck as fast ass your ass can run down the street is did you ram effect that shit? No matter how fast you can run with jet is faster than the speed of light is now you are in a vacuum is ram'd it to zero effect. Now start pushing ram is when you reach vacuum is set the ram to fill is push the bubble inn and force it there like a turbo blade without a blow off 14.7 AtmahooooGwattsit Gauge.

"On a bike with carbs the difference was greater, since there is no control unit monitoring the conditions and compensating accordingly." Listen to CBR. I am going to guess the lag in a carb body is the air thru the venturi is much faster than what liquid can be picked up out of the tube. Now, I have no clue is guess wrong is think the opposite. I am going to guess if the proportions are spot on, the sustained is the gas out the tube once sustained is in proportion with everything else. Therefore, I see a restriction of electrical computation before said fuel is dispensed; whereas the old carb pulls a more perfect/exact flow don't chew know. Who has that data, is you, CBR? I am just taking a guess.

Here is the next guess. You will not have a lag is yes you will with open air cleaner is the wafer will not keep up with the suck at a much faster rate. But if you close down the air speed by reinstalling the air cleaner, you have no lag like fall on it's face lag with a carb design trying the same attempt. Because the TPS and wafer pulse of your volume opening match much faster in the lower end electrics where it has the control to shoot the gas in at any rpm or start the gas sooner where the carb is handcuffed by vacuum and who wins getting in faster is lean wins is the gas is still in the building.... The gas is still in the bowl. The bike is now lean as a mother is hub beer baby bub bee bump her tushie wit a hammer'd-ie ode.

Is that what you were saying, CBR? Gonna confuse me now.

CBRFRENZIE
You are right, turning the brightness down on my screen made that quite clear, it was the original (old) map that had the 85 - 100 dip... making it an even better tune!!
Thanks for pointing that out to me...

And HUB, I agree with you 100% on the RAM thing (although I have never tried to take a RAM shit :).
Scoops and such are something that look like they should work, but tests done by Holley (and others) on all kinds of vehicles show VERY minimal gains due to a very minimal RAM effect...Sometimes the general turbulence created by the more sealed "RAM" systems create more problems than they attempt to solve...

Ronnie

PS I bailed on the 2008 Midnight Sapphire Blue and went with the Orange & Black 2009 ZX-14...

* Last updated by: RapidRonnie on 3/13/2009 @ 7:20 AM *

Its hard to compare two different bikes (carb'd and fuel injected) because the properties of the air box and air flow control mechanisms are quite different. For example the new ZX-14's have an upper butterfly that limits air flow to the lower throttle blades where on a carb'd bike you typically have one set of blades, and an oriface the air is flowing through to pull the proper amount of fuel through mechanically. You will get the mechanical delay of the pressure in the float bowl responding to the change in air speed and drawing more fuel up the main jet. You also get a delay on the fuel injected system as the ECU needs to detect a change in air speed and apply the modified fuel requirements on the next fuel pulse, so on average you would lag one or two injector events at most. The nice thing with fuel injected bikes is that the ECU will actually detect a change in throttle position and add a little extra fuel the next fuel pulse, so that would in essence minimize your response time to one injector event later (think 4 injector events per 720 degrees crank shaft rotation) which is quite quick, being you have the mechanical delay of the air making its way through the blades. The fuel injection systems these days process data quite quickly, and the length of each fuel pulse fired is calculated using a base table look-up plus a compensation based on the dynamics of the engine sensors ( MAP, TPS, CLT, IAT, O2 sensor... )

I think if you had some sort of accel pump setup on a carb'd bike you would "help" get rid of that quick lean spike when you slam the gas open (with a proper air box and filter of course) otherwise you are at the mercy of the physical delay of the system.

PS: ( I'm one of the guys that helped tune the bike in this thread, that's why I jumped in. NOT trying to hijack your thread Aminosity :) )

No worries Chad/Tim, I assumed it was you.
Not sure which one this is as Chad has 2 CBR's and I thought Tim said he also owns a CBR.
You should post pics of Tim's ZX10. That is a sweet looking bike.

Oh and since we are talking air/fuel ram air and butterflies........................

Is there any gain worth gaining to remove the 2ndaries. A lot of 14 owners are claiming its a big gain. I have done it on a past bike and just didn't see the need. But then again my end result for the 14 isn't a super fast bike. I have other plans. But I am more wondering about the positive/negative impact on the whole complete system.

* Last updated by: anamosity on 3/13/2009 @ 12:38 PM *

Brock's emailed me and said the PC5 is working good on Ricky Gadsen's ZX-14 drag bike. So they are ordering one for me for when I get there this summer.

privateer:

I noticed that Brock posted a message about Gadsen's recent times on another forum. Would you please let him know about our forum when you get a chance and tell him that we would welcome his input here as well?

Thanks! -bg

Sity said, "Is there any gain worth gaining to remove the 2ndaries." Yes, it is called a split second of a difference. There is a gain, but slight. Then we start all over again is the lag as you keep modding with air flow.

privateer:

I noticed that Brock posted a message about Gadsen's recent times on another forum. Would you please let him know about our forum when you get a chance and tell him that we would welcome his input here as well?

Thanks! -bg

I emailed Jason Gillum at Brock's and suggested how much we'd appreciate it if they posted from time to time here. Don't know if they will, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

I emailed Jason Gillum at Brock's and suggested how much we'd appreciate it if they posted from time to time here. Don't know if they will, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Thanks! -bg

I'll have to find a pic of Tim's bike to stick up here, you're right..... it is SEXY looking!

Removing the secondary butterflies would gain you little to nothing on a stock-ish bike IMHO. Looking at the power and torque curves they appear to be pretty smooth, meaning no big peaks and dips. The electronic control of the secondary butterflies probably helps with this and makes the power to the ground more linear and usable. My guess is that if you removed them you would see very slight gains up top, but your low and mid range power and torque would probably suffer.

Does anyone have any dyno comparisons of this??

1981 Yamaha YZ465: 0.040" overbore, Forged Wiseco 10.5:1 CR, Mild exhaust port work, 0.010" Shim under base gasket for changed port timing, Full DG Exhaust, Renthal bars, FOX grips, RK chain and rear sprocket.

Nice, I loved that bike.

In actuality the 06-07 zx-14 benefit in a torque gain below appx 5k.the 08/09 dont see as much gain as the factory changed the mapping to open the flies sooner in the 1st 4 gears.The ecu slows the opening of the sub/secondary butterflies substationally softening the low torque available(not fully open till appx5500 rpm).I dont have a dyno map handy, but my 06 fly removal resulted in more torque down low so much that 2nd gear out of the corners felt as good as 1st before the fly removal.There is alot of info on this on most 14 sites

Nat

* Last updated by: natlancaster on 3/16/2009 @ 3:02 PM *

Anamosity, I may have missed it, but I assume you are not running the optional O2 sensor with you PC 5, right ?

RE: PC 5 - '08 ZX14 Dyno results
03/17/09 10:28 PM

Anamosity, I may have missed it, but I assume you are not running the optional O2 sensor with you PC 5, right ?

Not that I am aware of. But then again I didn't not do the install either. But that does nt sound like something they installed.

On another note I am very interested in their AutoTune add on.
That seems like it would be a great add on since I ride everywhere from the Rockies to Canada, Oregon and Seattle.

* Last updated by: anamosity on 3/18/2009 @ 7:55 AM *

Auto-tuneable fuel injection will be on all motorcycles in the near future. Cars have had it for last 20 years in some shape and form. Majority of race motorcycles now use it. In fact, MotoGP bikes now have O2 sensors for each cylinder.
It was just logical next step & progress for DynoJet to introduce new gen. PC 5 that features this option.

* Last updated by: Steven14 on 3/18/2009 @ 3:37 PM *