I know I'm new here and please don't take offence Hub when I ask, are you ESL? Your posts are very hard to read.

* Last updated by: Bopropucope on 11/14/2014 @ 1:20 PM *

I know I'm new here and please don't take offence Hub when I ask, are you ESL? Your posts are very hard to read.

He doesn't have ESL... he has multiple sclerosis like PhD Stephen Hawking, and as such, must use subtle eye movements to manipulate a computer to communicate with us.

The only other life improving aid he has is a trained box turtle that can perform small tasks such as fetch juice boxes and change Hub's soiled 100% cotton briefs.

We, the forum, apologize to you for his limited communication abilities and ask that you bear with us, the forum membership, as we try to un-wrinkle our friends "Hubbish", as that's all he can muster in his condition.

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True story

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Top Banana,
Your bike lost at the line. Yet you maintained the losing distance on the big end (3.10! 3.10! that's my entire arguement 3.10!) Why? Because of the Hand. Yes, I know you want to know which one, well both. I'll cover the big end first... What is the throttle position in the last 1/8 mile? 100% or rolling to it, you're correct. That means all that dyno time you spent dialing your pig in 3% fueling increments to make peak HP is being fully tapped. That 3% isn't even quality, you can be anywhere in that 3% range. So, if both bikes make 202 peak HP, the graphs should be relatively the same (id like to see an overlay) meaning your going to maintain the same losing distance. That covers the right hand, left hand ain't doing shit.

Now, why did my bike lose? We make the same 202 HP! 3.10! AHHhhhh, now comes the quality.... What are you doing at the line before the bulb lights? Right hand: Holdin' her steady at 5500(?) Left hand:Letting the clutch out just enough for the plates to start doing their thing. Green light, well.. lights, now WATT? First off your surprised you didn't stall again. More importantly those hands should be doing what they are trained to do... Left hand: Riding that clutch in and out, while the Right hand is trying to roll the throttle to WATT asap! Both hands trying to play nice with the back tire and the front of the bike... OK, so what right? Nope, your a man of SCIENCE now.

Science you say! Whats happening with engine while the rear tire is glued to the track, and right and left hands are trying to keep the bike going forward faster than it is going up? Hell, it does this when the back tire is spinning, like you. The load is changing hub, the fucking load is changing... Load, RPM, AFR. Yeah, AFR hub, you know AFR. Spark advance, duty cycles, OMG THE SCIENCE! Its MATH anyway, WINDBAG. You can't tune the AFR just to RPM, you need the loaded RPM. Fueling demands change depending on RPM and load.

So back to the dyno session, or your couch, because that's where you race on your keyboard. You set your fueling by rpm and loaded dyno in 3% increments. What happens when your right and left hand put you outside of your calculated load for range the 3% change covered? What if the bike wants 4%, 2% , 1% , 0%? Shit, lets go 3.5%, were going for quickest down the 1/4. You can't have it. 1% increments wouldn't be good enough. Hooray you can tune 250 rpm increments instead of 500 tho. Big deal, that's 50% more that's not absolutely correct.

The bike you lost on the line to, has EACH cylinder tuned in 1/10th%. It's going to be correct a lot more than your 3% for all cylinders will be. Which means, better quality power... smoother, faster delivery, and more controllable throttle. The throttle response is simply not there with the PCV. Which is why you lost in the first 1/8th mile. Your left with running the entire RPM range slightly too rich. 100% WOT, I would not expect there to be a huge difference between the two. 3.10!

I think once Smokin commits fully to the flash and learns where the power comes on, the gap will widen. The most important part is the raw data for any future minor tweaks. Seal up the airbox and fatten the top up a pinch.

Look Hub is fucking ground hog day again.

WOT is not the only on facet of the equation. The Cblast flash absolutely crushes the ecu pcv combo in everyday drveability and part thottle and road course scenerios. Im not sure where romans flash is in the game but i am willing to bet his is also smoother than the ecu pcv combo.
There is a reason why i pulled the PCV off of my bike. Rich idle, jerky throttle in every position other than WOT. 3% fueling increments an no control of individual cylinders is not the way to go IMHO.

* Last updated by: fatsix on 11/14/2014 @ 10:38 PM *

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Just to slap the dick out of your mouth Hub.

I pulled historic weather for Smokins 8.42 run. I believe it was 2/16/14, but I am not sure on the time. So I kind of guessed based on his post time. Either way, the changes in weather don't make that much of a difference. I will fix them if needed. Also, Smokins weather didn't match the Weather history for Bradenton or Sarasota airport. He reported 10 degree hotter temps than the history did. The DA plays the biggest part Anyway! I tried to be really fair with this... OH THE SCIENCE!

And to be fair to Smokin, I took the PCV best run, adjusted the temp to match what he reported.

Here is the weather data from 10/31 in bradenton.
Time (EDT) Temp. Dew Point Humidity Pressure Visibility Wind Dir Wind Speed Gust Speed Precip Events Conditions
12:53 AM 73.0 °F 69.1 °F 87% 29.88 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Mostly Cloudy
1:53 AM 72.0 °F 68.0 °F 87% 29.86 in 10.0 mi NNE 4.6 mph - N/A Scattered Clouds
2:53 AM 71.1 °F 68.0 °F 90% 29.85 in 10.0 mi NNE 4.6 mph - N/A Clear
3:53 AM 72.0 °F 68.0 °F 87% 29.83 in 10.0 mi North 5.8 mph - N/A Mostly Cloudy
4:53 AM 71.1 °F 69.1 °F 93% 29.83 in 10.0 mi NE 5.8 mph - N/A Mostly Cloudy
5:53 AM 70.0 °F 68.0 °F 93% 29.83 in 10.0 mi NE 4.6 mph - N/A Scattered Clouds
6:53 AM 70.0 °F 68.0 °F 93% 29.84 in 10.0 mi North 6.9 mph - 0.00 in Overcast
7:53 AM 70.0 °F 64.9 °F 84% 29.86 in 10.0 mi NNW 8.1 mph - N/A Overcast
8:53 AM 71.1 °F 57.9 °F 63% 29.88 in 10.0 mi North 11.5 mph - N/A Mostly Cloudy
9:53 AM 73.0 °F 55.9 °F 55% 29.90 in 10.0 mi North 8.1 mph - N/A Mostly Cloudy
10:53 AM 75.0 °F 57.9 °F 55% 29.90 in 10.0 mi North 11.5 mph - N/A Clear
11:53 AM 73.9 °F 60.1 °F 62% 29.89 in 10.0 mi NNW 9.2 mph - N/A Mostly Cloudy
12:53 PM 73.9 °F 57.9 °F 57% 29.88 in 10.0 mi NW 13.8 mph 21.9 mph N/A Scattered Clouds
1:53 PM 75.9 °F 59.0 °F 56% 29.86 in 10.0 mi NNW 15.0 mph 21.9 mph N/A Scattered Clouds
2:53 PM 75.0 °F 57.0 °F 53% 29.83 in 10.0 mi NNW 12.7 mph 24.2 mph N/A Partly Cloudy
3:53 PM 73.9 °F 48.9 °F 41% 29.84 in 10.0 mi NNW 13.8 mph 24.2 mph N/A Clear
4:53 PM 73.0 °F 51.1 °F 46% 29.84 in 10.0 mi NNW 13.8 mph - N/A Clear
5:53 PM 71.1 °F 53.1 °F 53% 29.85 in 10.0 mi NNW 12.7 mph - N/A Clear
6:53 PM 68.0 °F 51.1 °F 55% 29.86 in 10.0 mi NNW 8.1 mph - N/A Clear
7:53 PM 66.9 °F 51.1 °F 57% 29.88 in 10.0 mi NNW 8.1 mph - N/A Clear
8:53 PM 66.0 °F 51.1 °F 59% 29.90 in 10.0 mi NNW 6.9 mph - N/A Clear
9:53 PM 66.9 °F 51.1 °F 57% 29.92 in 10.0 mi NNW 9.2 mph - N/A Clear
10:53 PM 66.9 °F 52.0 °F 59% 29.93 in 10.0 mi NNW 6.9 mph - N/A Clear
11:53 PM 64.9 °F 53.1 °F 65% 29.93 in 10.0 mi NW 5.8 mph - N/A Clear

Here is the weather data from 2/16 in bradenton.
Hourly Weather History & Observations
Time (EST) Temp. Windchill Dew Point Humidity Pressure Visibility Wind Dir Wind Speed Gust Speed Precip Events Conditions
12:53 AM 48.0 °F - 44.1 °F 86% 30.14 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
1:53 AM 46.0 °F - 43.0 °F 89% 30.12 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
2:53 AM 44.1 °F - 41.0 °F 89% 30.13 in 8.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
3:53 AM 45.0 °F - 41.0 °F 86% 30.12 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
4:53 AM 42.1 °F 39.2 °F 39.9 °F 92% 30.13 in 10.0 mi SSE 4.6 mph - N/A Clear
5:53 AM 43.0 °F - 41.0 °F 93% 30.15 in 8.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
6:53 AM 42.1 °F - 39.9 °F 92% 30.17 in 9.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
7:53 AM 48.0 °F - 45.0 °F 89% 30.17 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
8:53 AM 54.0 °F - 48.0 °F 80% 30.20 in 10.0 mi ENE 3.5 mph - N/A Clear
9:53 AM 60.1 °F - 44.1 °F 55% 30.21 in 10.0 mi NNE 4.6 mph - N/A Clear
10:53 AM 64.0 °F - 39.9 °F 41% 30.20 in 10.0 mi SE 3.5 mph - N/A Clear
11:53 AM 64.9 °F - 44.1 °F 47% 30.19 in 10.0 mi West 8.1 mph - N/A Clear
12:53 PM 66.9 °F - 43.0 °F 42% 30.18 in 10.0 mi WNW 12.7 mph - N/A Clear
1:53 PM 71.1 °F - 27.0 °F 19% 30.16 in 10.0 mi NW 10.4 mph - N/A Clear
2:53 PM 70.0 °F - 41.0 °F 35% 30.14 in 10.0 mi NNW 9.2 mph - N/A Clear
3:53 PM 66.0 °F - 48.9 °F 54% 30.14 in 10.0 mi West 12.7 mph - N/A Clear
4:53 PM 64.9 °F - 48.9 °F 56% 30.15 in 10.0 mi WNW 12.7 mph - N/A Clear
5:53 PM 63.0 °F - 39.9 °F 43% 30.16 in 10.0 mi NW 11.5 mph - N/A Clear
6:53 PM 57.0 °F - 43.0 °F 59% 30.18 in 10.0 mi NW 5.8 mph - N/A Clear
7:53 PM 57.0 °F - 46.0 °F 67% 30.18 in 10.0 mi NW 3.5 mph - N/A Clear
8:53 PM 54.0 °F - 46.9 °F 77% 30.19 in 10.0 mi NNW 3.5 mph - N/A Clear
9:53 PM 53.1 °F - 46.0 °F 77% 30.19 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
10:53 PM 51.1 °F - 46.0 °F 83% 30.20 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear
11:53 PM 50.0 °F - 46.0 °F 86% 30.19 in 10.0 mi NNE 3.5 mph - N/A Clear

* Last updated by: fatsix on 11/14/2014 @ 10:36 PM *

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* Last updated by: Cblast on 11/14/2014 @ 10:46 PM *

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Didn't know Hagrid, thank you. No disrespect intended.

Just for all fairness, shits and giggles, and to backwards check. I put the 8.42 run and converted it to the weather of 10/31 when the other runs where made. Just sayin. Not too far off from that Cblast run, now is it?

* Last updated by: fatsix on 11/14/2014 @ 11:21 PM *

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fat, you don't get it. Pig/flash has the numbers. AVERAGE #'s... Same day, atmo, etc. What you are showing me are weather reports of two different days and atmo pressures on the boys, so yes, the numbers change. But not in one night and within hours?

Explain the average you want to be fair. I don't give a shit who wins. All I'm looking at is if that pig is in or out of the loop, you tell me who pulled the numbers. You rather pull a slip? Pick a high or low and throw it out. I rather throw that 160 in for good measure so I don't cheat C out of a slip.

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To be fair Hub. C got one honest run. ONE..... The first two were testers, he wanted to quit after the second, just look at the comments. He manned up and rode the third, what happend? The 60ft times got progressively better until he took it out. The 160 is not bogus. The weather shit was for fun. You are on a science kick. I just backwards validated the other two with the 8.42 run. Made it all happen on 1 day. Math and Science made two days, that were 8 months apart, the same day, so you could have your race.

So going forward, when the weather is better, the expectation is that the cblast ticket reads 8.39 or better.

You wanted something of substance, you got it, not my fault you don't like the taste.

One more thing hub. Maybe we can agree on one fucking thing. A door prize if you may. If they 3.10! all the rest of the runs, and its a tie. You save $400 and have better throttle response and gas mileage. It would be a small victory in the battle, but the only victory to be had. Pig is out.

* Last updated by: fatsix on 11/14/2014 @ 11:54 PM *

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I see the 160, but it sat there @ 128. We are back to 202 a piece and not sure it has a .39 in it, if the pig/flash can only come up with a .42 and that says you have to run at those conditions?

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CBlast
what is your target market?

Didn't know Hagrid, thank you. No disrespect intended.

I'm pulling your leg, bud.

The turtle part is true though.

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Chesties2molesties

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fatsix nice work on the DA and charts .. The air port that the numbers come from is pretty far away , so the track can be a bit different ..But still pretty close I would say ..Humidity could read a little higher at the track because of a very large Lake next to the track ( Google Map the track and you will see the lake ) The track is pretty far inland and will have a bit more Temp rise than being closer to the coast ..No sea breeze to cool off the track ... But all in all still pretty close to the numbers from the air port ..If I remember right the 8.42 run was done in a DA of 900 feet , could have been a bit less .. Last testing between 7:00 when we started to 11:00 when we got done ranged from 1500 at 7:00 to 1400 at 11:00 .. Temps went down but Humidity went up .. That normal for FL as the temps become closer to the dew point at night ..I knew the air was bad because the barometric pressure was 29.0 range ..The bike really likes 30.0 and up .. The 8.42 was one of the rare nights where it was up to 31.0 or better ..Last night in GA at the Man Cup race the DA was -1500 ..WOW would love to run it that air !!! But we have to work with what we have here ..We have small window here to get killer good air here in FL ..We could have it one day and the next day it's gone ...If the timing is just right ( Thursday nights )we could get that air .. Last testing we missed it , the front came late and Friday and Sat got the good air.. Well the track wasn't open Friday and Sat for test and tune so we missed it ..This Thursday night was great air but the track was open to cars only for a 5 day race .. So we wait till next Thursday night and hope we get lucky .. Fingers crossed ..

Map https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4748663,-82.3257589,2179m/data=!3m1!1e3

* Last updated by: Smokinzx14 on 11/15/2014 @ 8:16 AM *

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So we wait till next Thursday night and hope we get lucky .. Fingers crossed ..

So, am I wrong to assume the testing moves ahead ? Fingers crossed sounds like yes ?

Hey Vic, generally, it is the everday street rider, we do get customers coming from drag or circuit racing as well. Our focus is always the best quality power for the everday rider.

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Hey Vic, generally, it is the everday street rider, we do get customers coming from drag or circuit racing as well. Our focus is always the best quality power for the everday rider.

I can't get into the gnitty gritty details on 1/4 performance. I don't know enough. I've never dynoed a bike. However, I am a professional analyst. As I've stated here before, I'm a numbers man. Part of being a numbers man is understanding that not all numbers are created or understood equally.

Long before I ever had my 14R or even was serious about getting back into motorcycling, C's customers have been lauding C's flash service/product. But these customers only had their riding experience (butt dyno) to base their experience on. It all (all as in the cargo container ship load of positive testimonials) seemed really too good to be true. Alone there is some question, are these customers really experiencing these performance improvement, or is all just their perception?

This test was short and sweet. It was conducted by objective individuals capable of performing in a consistent manner. Possibly professionals (C is a professional, as in he is paid for this service), but I'm not sure Smoke is a professional drag racer. Either way, it is safe to call the involved individuals experts. Alone the results are questionable to reach a conclusion.

However, the test results affirm in every way what C's customers have been claiming all along. Considering C's target market, which is primarily street riders who might do some track and strip, these combined results completely support C's claims about his product. It really seems too good to be true. I've been here 6 months, I have never seen one complaint or dissatisfaction from a paying customer on C's product. It's really remarkable, I cannot think of one other product or service that has what basically seems like 100% customer satisfaction!

C, you've convinced me. I can't wait to get my 2nd ECU to send your way.

Smoke thanks again for your part in this. I'll be signing up at your web site shortly, I'd like to check out what products and services you offer too.

Fat is absolutely right. Sebastian can flash in everything you need to unlock this bike and get correct fueling AND save you the cost of a PCV and installation. We already have proof that there is ZERO benefit to running the piggy back. Not sure who wants the "SLUGGISH" DON/PIG combo but hey that's your choice. For those of you who REQUIRE fueling changes on site there is always the option of springing for the Woolich software. CBLAST/Woolich combo would be an infinitely better setup than the GENERIC/PIG setup. We must also remember that Sebastian's product is continually evolving. A marker placed in time is already outdated by the thoughts and ideas for improvement. I have personally talked to Don Guhl and I talk to Sebastian frequently. Don's flash is a meal ticket and Sebastian's is a passionate expression of how this 14R and ECU SHOULD perform. I dare each of you to talk to both of them and decide for yourself who has a more vested interest in this platform.

* Last updated by: maverick1441 on 11/15/2014 @ 10:08 AM *

Possibly professionals (C is a professional, as in he is paid for this service)

Doctors pay for malpractice insu and they are professionals. I don't think C was in the racing industry part of it to be known as a Muzzy kind of pro? Not taking anything from the racing community/Muzzy/etc., but C is more highbrow and I doubt his background is grounds for a professional tuner? You know how Muzzy is a tuner? Valasco has been doing it for a long time. C just started out a few years back makes him a professional, because you pay someone for that short experience? Dude, you line up a bunch of dynos and a few bikes on them, Muzzy will out tune C and his crew is just an example of a pro and a novice in it for a few years.

but I'm not sure Smoke is a professional drag racer. Either way, it is safe to call the involved individuals experts.

That's where I can tell you can't tell the difference between who has more background. I'm no expert so we line up all the racers, and where does that put C? Man, are you flinging those pro/expert badges about and I should take your word on it? Someone explain that to him.

However, I am a professional analyst

So I should trust your analysis you can't tell a novice background and someone who has been in the game for along time?

Alone the results are questionable to reach a conclusion.

And what have I been saying all along.

* Last updated by: Hub on 11/15/2014 @ 10:19 AM *

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Okay...okay..I'll jump in here...slightly.....Pro Tuner?No Pro Tuner.Time doesn't necessarily produce a "Pro" anything.

PRO(fessional) is someone who gets paid.That's it.Doesn't mean they are tops at whatever they're doing.C's been working with Nels...Nels is a true pro.C's a protege(I would say...which isn't a step down or anything remotely inferring that).He's very sharp...He understands what's going on in the mapping.It's all been done with Dynos.It's obvious he understands the concepts and inputs as to what will do what...to achieve HIS goals.His flash(theirs)is probably...the BEST one out there for the 14.I mean...it just is.I truly respect Don/Brock...Ivan...Romans...they all have produced excellent flashes.Some with PC's as an enhancer to the flash.

I wasn't terribly impressed with the Guhl Flash and Brock mapping...overall...it was good..but I felt lacking in the midrange on throttle power delivery.Always felt like the bike was capable of a lot more.This is STREET riding that is.

My overall impression of the mappings and such from other than C's...was that I felt they were trying to 'keep the bike safe' for the rider....this struck me first off after feeling how the power came on at various scenarios.I was expecting more really...huge pull...front end lifting...all that.This motor has that ability.I wanted that.

The C flash covered that fully.He knows what he's doing...him and Nels.It's a top notch flash....I know...some might say.."Shit man..you aint even BEEN on a track...how would YOU know what's right or wrong"...I don't.Except to say...what I feel riding with C's flash...it's exhilarating.Much stronger than I could ever wring out of the bike...which to me...is a good thing;)

Okay...now I'll go and sit down.Signed...

Grn you've been one of C's flash most ardent supporters. What I'm really excited about is the streetability you've spoke of consistently. I can't wait to experience the smoothing myself and fuel cut off problems fixed.

Thanks for keeping up the good fight and not giving up on people like me. I love change, but also also approach change cautiously otherwise I'm the type that can get into trouble pretty quickly. It's one reason I became a numbers man.

5 months GOODDDAMMMITTTT!!!!

* Last updated by: VicThing on 11/15/2014 @ 12:35 PM *

Maybe TWO months here...usually there's a January thaw...can get in a few rides there...then some in Feb...occasionally,and on into March...when things start warmin up.Sorry ya have 5 months...drag.Yup...you'll really enjoy his flash...promise;)If you haven't already...maybe you might consider getting the stock exhaust off...and replacing with a full 4 into one.A good set.C's flash for my Brock's 4 into one is totally fun and better than factory for rideability....(among the other pluses).I've attempted to find even ONE 'flaw' with his flash...to be able to tell him...and help him improve maybe something....but no...every combination of throttling,decelling,shifting and fueling bumps...nada...perfectly strong and smooth everywhere...

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/15/2014 @ 12:53 PM *

"Don's flash is a meal ticket and Sebastian's is a passionate expression of how this 14R and ECU SHOULD perform."

First thing Guhl did, was try to sell me on a PCV, For slip ons ? Really ?

I do not think guhl has put in the hours C has, that's where quality comes from,
the term "profesional" can be a bit arbitrary, (I'm not saying don isn't a professional, but others in the industry may be a bit overblown) C has put in the hours, and it shows in the quality of the flash,
and his understanding of the ECU .....

The time C has put in is real, I have been in pretty consistent contact with him
since he has started flashing, I have a told the story many times, no need to go into
that again ....

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