"I do not think guhl has put in the hours C has"...I'd say he has...been flashing these for quite some time...PC's before that.However...I think C and Nels have a different insight into what a guy really wants from his 14...IDK...You know...you're gonna flash this bike like YOU were riding it...I would think?Possibly THAT's the difference in the flashing parameters.C's is WAY ahead of Guhls...

Well, I mean R&D hours, no doubt Don spends a lot of time flashing, but how many nights has he stayed
up late into the night trying to find or think of something new to explore or find ?

I don't think don even has a 14 of his own, does he ? I don't know him that well, only
spoke to him once ....

Maybe TWO months here...usually there's a January thaw...can get in a few rides there...then some in Feb...occasionally,and on into March...when things start warmin up.Sorry ya have 5 months...drag.Yup...you'll really enjoy his flash...promise;)If you haven't already...maybe you might consider getting the stock exhaust off...and replacing with a full 4 into one.A good set.C's flash for my Brock's 4 into one is totally fun and better than factory for rideability....(among the other pluses).I've attempted to find even ONE 'flaw' with his flash...to be able to tell him...and help him improve maybe something....but no...every combination of throttling,decelling,shifting and fueling bumps...nada...perfectly strong and smooth everywhere...

I already have, although I went with a 4-2-1. Being a 14R, I am not too concerned about peak horsepower or power specially any where, the engines got monster power everywhere. I'd rather add a little more power everywhere than primarily at peak, and that's exactly what Yosh R-77 4-2-1 does (there's also a 4-1 version). With this system peak is still higher but also more throughout the rev range. Overall the difference is fairly negligible, maybe giving up 2 hp on top for 2 more on bottom or vice versa.

As far as weather here, 5 months is being optimistic. Unless it's abnormal weather, usually snows until early to mid march, sometimes even April. Hopefully there might be a few ride able days in March and April.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 11/15/2014 @ 5:28 PM *

I dare each of you to talk to both of them and decide for yourself who has a more vested interest in this platform.

Dare ? Mav not sure why anyone needs to make these calls unless the thread turns to "Who Is The Best Salesmen".

I have said these words a dozens times "The Flashes Must Speak For Themselves". Cyberbully Crap Mixed With Brainwashing Is Not Needed. That crap belittles us all. Remember, Proven Results.

This is of course Assuming you do know 99% of the flash talk is us taking credit for a Bike we did not build.

Not sure who wants the "SLUGGISH" DON/PIG combo but hey that's your choice.

Insults like this just muddy the water, true facts will get lost. Lee's 8.42 Ran with this Don/Pig combo. I for one am still impressed. Until you have done the same ????

"I'm getting the itch to stretch her out to 68". That way we have two of us on the site trying for 8.30s".

Two is most definitely better than one Mav. Break the 8.42 Don/Pig combo is all you would need to do for the win. From what I'm reading many think this is easy and has already been done. New bike set up 8.30's may be a long shot. But, I must admit you do sound very confident. Alright, hundred says you Can't. Free Money anyone ? I Don't Flinch and I Always Keep My Word. It's a Promise I will Pay to see it. Vid please.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/16/2014 @ 8:31 AM *

"Not sure who wants the "SLUGGISH" DON/PIG combo but hey..." ..."Insults like this just muddy the water, true facts will get lost. Lee's 8.42 Ran with this Don/Pig combo."

Lets setup Don's radio clicks, because I have no clue what he uses, but I'm falling back on the wooly setup I have. So did Don combine maps into one and radio click the 02 off as well? What did Don's AFR read at idle and C's idle read at? If Don sits at a lower AFR, I do not see 'Sluggish' as an insult, but more of what the street feel is to your generic JoeA's ass.

I ran the A'train from 11a to 16a. 12a was torque tough on the throttle, but sluggish on cruise. That AFR chart reads like the seat of the pants says. Someone said they read an SAE article and whoever he didn't mention who explained it back in the 1920's (harry ricardo, right?), said that 12a (round it off for the concept) was the 'power number.'

Guess who the power number is? "Sluggish." So how close am I to the Brock/Don AFR of 12a and change? And is C's tune leaner? C's chart reads on the 13a line, correct? So 'Slugger' is Sluggish, right? .42 kind of Sluggish, yes?

* Last updated by: Hub on 11/16/2014 @ 9:47 AM *

Smokin Lee himself is the man that made the original statement that the Brocks/Dons PCV combo felt sluggish compared to the Cblast Flash. That's Smokin himself. His ass dyno is qualified to make any feel statement he wants in my opinion. He was trying to share his impressions. He has over and over clearly stated which flash/setup he feels runs better. Hub, again, you have never ridden it. Your negative opinion you are entitled too, but it is completely unqualified because you have never once ridden the Cblast flash. Tuning isn't black magic. Its setting targets and using tools to hit those targets. The expertise comes from understanding where those targets need to be under varying conditions, and the use of the tools to translate those targets to reality. We use the finest tools, including a state of the art dyno room, a trackside dyno trailer, and the highest level data logging tools available. We have had well over 1000 motorcycles tuned through 2WheelDynoWorks since Nels and I began working together. Every one of those customers has walked aways satisfied with the quality of their tune. Mike Velasco himself is a 2WheelDynoworks customer. He brought 2 custom race purpose built kawasaki 650 flattrackers, punched out to 750 and needing custom tuning. Yes, Mike could have done it himself, but he didn't. He came to us because the new dyno is flawless, he understands every aspect of what we are doing and our tuning targets. Mike V., came to us because he wanted the finest tune possible for these two race machines. I share that not to name drop. I share it because I am so damn proud of the work Nels and I have done. When Mike V., shows up at your shop with a couple of racebikes for a dyno tune... Well, then you have accomplished something noteworthy. Hard work and attention to detail have paid off in the highest quality tune. We use similar tuning targets and methods in every machine we tune. When even Smokin Lee says its better, you can take that for proof in my mind.

.It felt as I had added two teeth to the rear sprocket in first gear ..It completely removed the bog I feel in Brocks /Guhl flash ..

-Smokin

As far as street riding , from what I felt last night from the small time I spent on the lower RPM range I feel Cblst/Nels flash will be faster and more rider friendly because the street rider will spend more time in the lower and mid range numbers ..

-Smokin

C, I'm going ask you 2 questions I cannot answer just for the basic theory of it. Explain to me the 'filter' radio clicks and have you altered those? I'll say you haven't. Here is the other one that explains if you know mapping and basic theory. Why are there individual maps in the 14?

There are 3 ways to answer those 2 questions:
1. No, I do not know what the filters do or why they have that at all, nor do I know why the cylinders do not run on one map and why the software has a choice either way.
2. Yes, and here are both answers so simply explained.
3. Silence.

BTW C, it's just a dynojet dyno. WOT that company says is to find peak HP and if you both found 202hp using a dynojet, isn't that all she wrote? What I don't want to see is Smoke moving Don's or Brocks setups.

Where is Ivan's tune? 205hp and 122tq and that AFR line is _______ fill in the blank. Too bad you couldn't make a pass on Ivan's tune, "Hand". And what conditions where those for Ivan's dyno numbers? And why are the both of you @ 202hp?

Is there a .39 in Ivan's?

When you know your wrong say very little, when you know your right say even less. Hub you should say very little...cblast even less.

True story^^^^

Tuning isn't black magic.

No it isn't. I'm sure there are Hundreds of Dyno owner operators that can produce the same numbers. Now can they make two bikes both with the same 202 hp, only diff being one bike will run faster with cylinders unified ?

The unification of the cylinders is the hidden story here. Does it Work ? I am hoping it does. But until it does I hope we all stay grounded.

C I have said this to you before in our discussions of old on the forum here, I don't unify cylinders because Kawi Doesn't do it. My thoughts always were that Kawi had good reasons for tuning each cylinder differently. (Who am I to go against the Kawi Engineers)I don't claim to know why kawi did this. Cooling is the answer most often given. But who really knows for sure. If you or anyone knows please post Facts only.

Also on that note who cares ? Kawi most certainly did not want us to turn flies to fully open but all us power hungry guys just love it. So if the bike is not running with hot spots and carries more torque, runs faster ET I say have at it.

As for Lee's comments about the increased bottom end C you and I both know Brock made a choice Not to fully open the flies in the bottom. Why is probably more about his style. Maybe he likes it this way ? But when the power hungry guys want it all, fully opened in the ECU is obviously the way to go to get the full 3D.

Everyone of us that perform these flashes are always makes changes or up dates. No reason to think Brock won't do the same if the masses want it. Gen 1 Brock Diaries flies in or out all over again.

C if that unified check mark placed in the box runs faster ET you just watch the updates rolling in. And Yes Nells/C found gold First. Credit belongs to you guys. Of that there can be no doubt. Well, Johnny implied he does it too but I don't know that for sure.

O the drama. Two ECU's both making 202hp but one runs faster. Truly awesome !!!!!

The unification of the cylinders is the hidden story here. Does it Work ? I am hoping it does. But until it does I hope we all stay grounded.

I'd think if there were issues spark plugs should show this. I changed my plugs (4400 miles) and they are literally identical in every cylinder. If unified causes and issue, spark plugs should read over/under/best conditions.

Romans still anxiously awaiting the new item you hinted you found. As for the different fueling strategy in factory form any chance it could be due to the different length velocity stacks on the 14r?

Question about the rpm Brock/Don opens the flys. They were saying that the flies couldn't be openned any earlier but seems the woolrich software makes that possible.

* Last updated by: toledoUPSguy on 11/16/2014 @ 5:43 PM *

Your negative opinion you are entitled too, but it is completely unqualified because you have never once ridden the Cblast flash.

I think I've been fairly objective about this, there is no clear winner but a change at the bottom as stated. Someone has to be a clear winner and it sure is not @ 202hp.

Insults like this just muddy the water, true facts will get lost. Lee's 8.42 Ran with this Don/Pig combo. I for one am still impressed. Until you have done the same ????

The next question is: did we mess with the ignition map to add to this bottom grunt?

I don't have the patience to copy paste these responses so take from it what you want. I asked for these guys to actually talk to the men behind the flashes because these are the guys that they will be dealing with in the future. Does that make sense? I don't think I have to elaborate any further...

Cyber bully? Brain wash? Two of the quickest (by a long shot) guys on this site are impressed and USING this flash. Take from that what you will.

INSULTS? Na that's a quote from Lee A.K.A. Smoking. Go back and read it a few times. Slowly if needed.

We don't need an ET winner to decide who has better support and passion for this platform between the two in question. If I even TIED the current ET laid down then it would be a clear win for Sebastion. Remember that I weigh closer to what an average guy does. I'm over 180 fully suited. Running MR12 would get close to eliminating the power to weight ratio difference but I'm sure there would be "didn't do it on pump gas" bla bla bla...

Guys remember that the name of this thread is PROVEN RESULTS. There isn't a member here that can deny that. Try as you might this flash has PROVEN its place on the market. I'm so sorry if that damages the butts of the naysayers.

Edit for Hub: Don Guhl edits the ignition tables. His response about just how much timing was vague at best.

* Last updated by: maverick1441 on 11/16/2014 @ 6:19 PM *

The next question is the man cup world finals. How many 14's were using the flash? RG won on a hole shot I hear and what is his setup? All day long, I too confess I watched this one large rider about the size of 1bad and he was cleaning up on his 14. Where are the man cup customers? What are they using if wooly has been around for awhile.

So RG is sponsored by whom? Uses Brocks and Don's setup? Has RG heard of the Cflash?

INSULTS? Na that's a quote from Lee A.K.A. Smoking. Go back and read it a few times. Slowly if needed.

Edit for Hub: Don Guhl edits the ignition tables. His response about just how much timing was vague at best.

1. Grunt
2. Ign
3. Heat

So now this man cup series and who is running flash and who should have been coming up like cream to the top... 23 pages 'shaken but not stirred.'

Hub RG bike is a turbo bike , uses nothing Brock or Don uses, it has the tone ring removed so it most likely doesn't use a factory ECU at all .. It's all set up by Chris Jones ..Chuck Hoover uses the same set up as mine ( lives down the street from me ) He ran ET street and crazy 8s class ..He is 200 pounds and had been low 8.60s ..I watched the hole race live and most 14s were running 8.90s to 9.40s .. That surprised me because the air was -400 DA ..

Were they all stock wheelbase Lee? Geez... I sure hope so.

Thanks, Smoke. I notice that. Slow numbers. Still, that was a pretty impressive field. No one crashed, no oil out the cases, just belts on the one off bikes blowing off. And sore necks looking over sandbag style. I was away from the computer a few times so I missed it. Sat back down and heard the announcer mentioned a hole shot saved his ass was it?

I can't believe no one is running a Cflash with all the 14's out there. And say the hypothetical is one bike is out there with one and only made 8.90's with the rest of them? And then again, not a one has a Cflash and look where they are with whatever setup.

There's no point in getting 100% out of your machine if your bracket racing. You'd be just as successful on a Vespa.

Disagree. 100% concentration at the light and 100% out of the bike under you is jump on a vespa, this is not your kind of head game.

I hit a few bracket events years back on my CBR600 out of pure boredom. I went semi and finals on separate occasions and still didn't get excited about it. Just not my cup of tea Hub.

Overlook the lazy 1/8 mile ET and have a look at that 30.97 back half mph on the 9.05 ticket. She went 30+ on every pass last night, but this one really made me smile. I went 9.07 off the trailer followed by 9.05, 9.03, and then two 9.02s before the track got cold.