It seems that when it is hot out, bike is warmed up and at a standstill, it idles at about 1100 and smooth.

Let's walk this out. I'd have a problem [tune wise] or my 'driveability' has this ability to do it ALL the time. When hot, she is at perfect idle, runs smooth = No Driveability Issues. Agreed?

When cold.. the idle... kind of bucking

Let's see; the difference is heat. It sounds more like; heat of the head [or heat retention]. The molecules bunched up is a cold head, where mist will shrink, hugs the port wall. That means cold contracts the fuel from a mist to a bunch of condensed liquid that is hard to fire off is the leftovers in the port. So more [fuel] is needed, called, rich map/morning map? The subs are physically ramped to open the throttle plates. This example is first gen start mode [for argument sake]. The combo of more gas, needs more air, the cold head, the condensed fuel, the hit and miss of exploding a liquid is not ideal idle = Bucking/Hunting/Stalling/High idle. But once that head is up to running temp, yes or no, you can't pull your finger away fast enough from the starter button; the engine lights off and idles smooth, correct?

Show yourself the driveability problem in the sustained. I'm thinking you can't. You are learning the bike's little nuances. See if that makes sense for you as it does for me idlesmoothe heathe heat!

Had it in neutral at a standstill on a hill , let the brakes off and when it hit 5 it hunted, slowed back before 5 and was smooth.

Do this. Execute the same downhill, simply pull the clutch in at any time. Try a few combos like; release the brakes, do not wait for 5mph; or wait for the high idle @5mph, pull the clutch lever in and keep it there. See what happens?

Maybe it has been like that since new and didn't notice... it

I think you might be seeing how precision electronics can be. Don't mess wit bulletproof or this bike is going to make you look like you stuck a ground up somewhere BUTT, wellllll????

If you notice a little 'hunting' like that it usually means a slightly lean condition in that area of the map sir.

Cblast, I'm not after you personally as if I was after Ivan or Grn. I was after the abstract. So, do not get in the way or stand on my red carpet, or step off it and make your argument walk. You just read mine. It says; you are running wit da big boys wit da big wanger hangers, you know, the 'Meat Puppets.'

'it usually means lean? So you would have +celled+up+more=fuel with the morning map/sub open/cold engine/HELLO? And where are you going to find the morning map on the pc or the ECU have got to be kidding me.

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It is a 49 state bike, have tried several maps from powercommander and orient racing, all of them have zero's in the area's I am having the problem, blipping doesnt change it. Am tempted to use the map from my connie 14, it puts out 156hp and feels nice, takes away a lot of fuel in the low rpm's.

fuelmoto worked hard developing a no-flies PCV map for the C14, it is sweet and spot-on, have not seen anything better for the connie, looks like consistent results for everybody that reported using it. Would think someone would of done the same for the ZX14r.

When cold or anything past 5 mph and the idle hunts around 12-1400, kind of bucking, any gear including neutral. Had it in neutral at a standstill on a hill , let the brakes off and when it hit 5 it hunted, slowed back before 5 and was smooth.

Does the bike actually jerk? Or is it just sound?

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thanks Hub, When hot, idle is smooth unless going over 5mph, driveability fine except close to idle also.
When coasting downhill smooth till 5 then lopey, tried all combinations, brakes/no brakes and ever gear and clutch in/out.
Around idle, the tone of the exhaust sounds off too. It sounds louder, has kind of an echo to it, more boomy instead of growly! More irritating instead of meaty. Just doesnt sound well tuned. Seems lower on power around idle than I would expect. Up above 3,000, it sounds great, pleasant, powerful, feels that way too.

I had a lopey, Jerky low RPM ride for 2 years after installing Brocks CT exhaust on my 2012 14R. I had the PCV with Brocks street map. I read somewhere where Brock never could tune it out completely with the PC. So I have just lived with it. Changed to the CBlast Flash a few months ago and it’s just as smooth as silk all the way down to as low as you care to run it. The low speed Jerking is gone with just smoothness from right off idle.

Hey untamed, the lopey is like missing, in 1st/2/3 around idle trying to commute the bike jerks with the misses, have to slip the clutch or get the rpm's up, just not firing right.

thanks jdw8xb, was afraid of that, first time i heard of it anywhere else!

That doesn't sound cool. Mine never had this issue it just didn't idle smoothly but as I said fuel trims sorted that out
If fueling/trims doesn't fix it, then it's unfortunately a process of elimination. Put old exhaust back with PC5 in play and so on.....

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Tried the zero map and it is much better, still some lopeyness around 12-1300 but better fueling everywhere else. Have tried several maps from Orient Express and Powercommader already. Would try a dyno tune but the only shop around here has never done a ZX14r. Anyone have a map they are happy with for a larger 4 into one? Maybe a no-flies one that I could try?

like that it usually means a slightly lean condition in that area of the map sir.

Tried the zero map and it is much better

So I leaned the bike more and it ran better. C, can you explain your tuning background experience? I mean, this is current tuning experience? And how come I went the other way, knowing you would have Jeffo'd the plugs going richer? You two on speedial to each other?

This kind of shit you can't hide.

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Yes he is in my contacts, just kidding. Not a tuner any kind of way. I added fuel, when that didnt work, I took away some, then loaded a zero map and it was better, I do feel pretty stupid. I did find the battery terminals weren't the best, so starting over again too.
It didnt help that the place I bought the pipe and PCV from sent maps, some for a C14, some for slip-on's!

Well, pulling the flies again made a nice difference, it just feels good and sounds like it should now. Still has a lopey idle when above 5 mph, but out of that area there is no jerkyness anymore and it is smooth with a zero map in the PCV. Whatever works!

Lumpy idle is from a 4-2-1 exhaust with no crossover tubes to lessen the resonant wave at low rpms.

A raised idle when the bike is in gear is to lessen decel engine braking
(something mother Kaw put there... and is there as delivered)...

This is adjustable if you have access to the tables that control it inside the ECU.

Ivan

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Well... it's the only thing he didn't try: put the stock headers on and pull all the air/fuel adjustments off.

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Thanks Ivan, it is a 4-2-1, that certainly makes it understandable, I can quit trying to mess with the A/F ratio to get rid of it!!! Do you have access to that table?
Hagrid, was going to get the Yoshis but a 1441 member talked me into it after he did it.

My Sato exhaust is a high quality titanium system, to me just looks like an exhaust should on my bike with it's large 60mm up-swept can. The full AreaP 4-2-1 on my Concourse seems very similar with no lopeyness, very nice output lifting the front wheel going through second and the fueling has been spot on. Fuelmoto worked very hard in developing that canned map. Maybe one of the tuners out there can get rid of that raised idle and get the A/F right for it. Anyone know of a good tuner in the Pacific Northwest or know of a good canned tune that might work?

Have you contacted Sato directly to see if they have a PC5 map availabe? Also maybe recheck install of pipe at headers and make sure nopossible air leak????

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Hi Blkcasper, I did call Sato, they stopped developing exhaust systems before the ZX14r came out. No leaks at the header, a leak at the 2 of the 4-2-1 which I just adjusted to get rid of. The lopyness is an irritant, not a game changer, I love my bike.

Finally had it dyno tuned, still have the lopey idle but the A/F looks better down low. The dyno operator tried adding and subtracting a bunch of fuel around idle but made no difference. Ran into a 2014 with full R77 Yoshi and his has the same problem.
This is the same dyno that showed 176hp when stock, but I think it was because of 42psi in the rear tire and this time 31psi.
The blue line is zero map, no-flies, full Sato exhaust, red line is after tuning. My target was 13.2 for street-ability and not max hp.
195hp, 113tq SAE

* Last updated by: dixie on 7/28/2015 @ 5:10 PM *

Stock mapping doesn't look rich to me actually too lean .... only rich in the area that has mis-timed resonance.

Notice how power doesn't go up much even after reducing the fueling in that area. The pipe is causing the mixture to blow out the intake in that rpm range. Completely wrong for this engine. This is poor trapping efficiency.

* Last updated by: Ivan on 7/28/2015 @ 6:35 PM *

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Let's explore that.

Are the Saco pipes tapered to take advantage of the 1441 hades flow characteristics and pulse?

Read an eye opening article aboot the new Ford Voodoo "flat crank" engine. They abandoned the cross-plane crank in order to facilitate consecutive exhaust impulses to occur on opposite sides of the engine: no individual cylinder's exhaust stroke is allowed to influence another, before, or after.

Does the factory KHI header perhaps serve in similar fashion?

Does the runner length to the collector factor at all? How about the final shape of the collector?

* Last updated by: hagrid on 7/28/2015 @ 7:34 PM *

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The Sato head pipes are tapered, also tapered going into the muffler. Trying to think back to stock exhaust, I am thinking now that it was there then too.
The bump in the curve around 3500 looks similar to most other pipe dyno sheets, don't really have a problem there, just around idle.
The mystery seems to be that there is no problem anywhere, sounds perfect and it is as smooth as butter in any gear or rpm unless I am going over about 10 mph! Over 10 mph then the idle at throttle stop or trying to hold the idle at any rpm in any gear is rough and lopey.
Pretty weird that speed has something to do with it.

Aha!

The ECU does something to the ICBS at around 8-10 mph. In stock form, if you coast with the throttle closed in neutral below 8 mph, the idle is 1050rpm +- 100. That changes if you cross the mph threshold to 10mph or better: the idle gets bumped up.

Are you sure all your idle circuit plumbing is secured and leak free?

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At less than 10 mph in any gear including neutral, clutch in or clutch out it behaves from idle and slight throttle to 4,000 rpm.
But over 10 mph from idle and slight throttle up to 4,000 rpm it is lopey and sounds funny.
At more than slight throttle it seems fine, maybe it is just masking something though.
Thought about vacuum, exhaust, valves out of spec, spark plugs and throttle body sync and A/F ratio but below 10 mph it is fine.
Have added and subtracted from slight to a lot of fuel in the whole area, that didn't do it. Didn't seem like it should because of the 10 mph cut-off anyway but still tried. Also had the dyno tuner try to add and subtract fuel with his nice O2 sensor and he couldn't get rid of it either, he is a Kawasaki dealer and trained mechanic also but didn't have a clue on why it does it.
What could be left? Timing maybe? Some kind of fuel cut-out? Ignition cut out?

* Last updated by: dixie on 7/30/2015 @ 7:16 PM *