I have always since day 1 noticed my 14 had a “gap” in the throttle response from 0 to about 1~2%. This was after opening the throttle only. It doesn’t happen if I slowly close to a tiny crack even if I hold it at 1%. It does not happen at all when the bike first starts but after it gets warm, it’s there. Roll off to 0%, coast a second or two, roll on just a crack and NOTHING! Just a hair more and it all but shoots out from under me. More problematic with my shortened gearing. It has always been a hassle. I guess when the bike was new I was so taken with it I did not complain. Lucky me, I would have brought it to the dealership at that point and who knows what they would have done to it. Has always been a pain in the butt and I have mentioned it several times over the years but of course, nobody else has this problem. Romans thought it might be fueling related in the 2% column.

44magnum has been searching for a cure and I think he's onto something.

  http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=72434

I was just wondering how many other people experience something similar.

Sorry, my '06 before with the Jeffo map and after the Dyno tune was very smooth. If Romans thought it was related to fueling the tbe Bikeland thread suggests TPS the two are related in the control loop. The TPS must have a lag for some reason. To be able to adjust/compensate for the lag at a specific spot is the beauty of having digital control tweeks. I bet you have already solved it by now with this info that you have become a tuning Guru.I bet all of those snow machine and TRV and Yamie outboards could use your help?? when you're done with the turbo NOX monster

Rook you'd have to try OE maps and see if it goes away. Myself I'm not sure the value of 1-2% throttle, seems like you'd need some kind of throttle guage to even know for sure you're really only opening the throttle 1-2%. LOL as many guages as you have you probably have one.

I don't know, maybe the answer is to throw out the guage.

I'll be posting more thorough data later but for now, here's what my bike has done to me for the past 4000 miles.

At speeds under 35 mph, the bike was worthless. It felt like I was on the rev limiter but the rev limiter was set to 2500 RPM. Obviously that's not the case, but that's the feel and the sound. I'd have to pull the clutch, blip the throttle and it would settle for a few seconds.

Last night I hooked up to the Power Commander 3, pulled up the Set Throttle Position, loosened the TPS and rotated it counterclockwise to start. It made the bottom end flawlessly smooth and I thought I had it, but it induced a new symptom. As I ran up through 4000-4500 RPM, then held it and smoothly backed out, it was as if I completely chopped the throttle. Alright, so there's a new one; back to the garage to go the OTHER direction.

I brought the TPS back to my origin point, then rotated it by a similar amount in the clockwise direction. Now of course, the 4000-4500 throttle chop went away, but so did this other "low-end rev limiter" thing I've been having! Finally! It's almost completely gone but I will reserve final judgment after a few more days of seat time.

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/8/2017 @ 6:53 AM *

I bet all of those snow machine and TRV and Yamie outboards could use your help?? when you're done with the turbo NOX monster

Myself I'm not sure the value of 1-2% throttle, seems like you'd need some kind of throttle guage to even know for sure you're really only opening the throttle 1-2%.

It felt like I was on the rev limiter but the rev limiter was set to 2500 RPM.

Finally! It's almost completely gone but I will reserve final judgment after a few more days of seat time.

I would suggest checking the voltage range with the PC3 if you can (the PC5 shows the exact voltage). It's possible that the sensor's range gets smaller when the sensor wears out. So turning it might cure one end but cause a similar problem up higher. I think my TPS was indicating a different range than spec but I was still able to calibrate it to the PC5 and it seems to work fine in all situations except for the small throttle/low rpm/hot engine situation.

To replace a TPS, looks like you may need to replace the whole throttle bodies harness. The wires are all taped together and I see no way to disconnect the TPS from the harness.

Keep us posted magnum.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/8/2017 @ 11:58 AM *

So far, almost smooth as silk everywhere below 3000 rpm. Traffic and riding through town was completely uneventful. 20 mph turns in 4th gear without a single protest.

According to the PCIII, the starting (closed) TPS voltage was .53. Now it's roughly .64.

Assuming the sensor isn't bad/going bad, it's finally good. 11 weeks and 4000+ miles is all it took.

Btw... whoever started this fear of not adjusting the TPS... WOW. Not a big deal guys. Loosen a screw and rotate. Don't like what you did? Loosen it back up and go the other direction. I'm guessing it was the Manufacturers.

All the best-

Devin

Rook 2% of throttle rotation must be different than whatever 2% of throttle the guagery shows. I'm thinking of dividing the throttle grip's rotation by 100 and moving it 2/100s. 2/100s is free play specification.

It's been a while since I did my tuning runs but I ran 2% throttle and got trims in the 2% throttle column. I don't know if it's actually 2%. I believe it is. I was just touching the throttle. I use that small of a throttle opening . It's perfect for prowling along in the neighborhood and if the rpm is up, it stabilizes the suspension going into a tight corner without causing the tire to spin. Cruising at 62 mph is only 7% throttle with 17/45 gearing.

I hope magnum has this figured out. I'll give it a whirl. Maybe me and him are the only ones who have this. I have heard of people complaining of lack of throttle control with flies out. Maybe if the primary TPS is off, you need the secondaries.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/9/2017 @ 8:30 AM *

Latest data:

3600 RPM pop on decal - gone.

Running very rich; went from an 11 week, 4000 mile average of 37 MPG down to 27 after this TPS adjustment. Still running the M234-003 Muzzy Full System PC3 tune from DynoJet.

That's not good.What's it read on 'current" setting?As you're riding.

Perhaps someone else who has been inside the ECU can chime in, but my biggest concern with rotating the throttle position sensor would be it would throw off the ECU readings, for example, if 0.5v = 0% throttle, 1.0v = 100% throttle, rotating the TPS could result in 0.75v = 0% throttle (previously 50%) and 1.25v = 100% throttle (previously above 100%).

This would "adjust" the base fuel and timing map as the ECU would think the throttle is open at a different rate than what is actually happening. This assumes that the TPS reading in the ECU behaves similarly to how a power commander is (a linear voltage reading with a baseline of 0 and 100% throttle as reference points).

44magnum, did you re-calibrate your TPS in the PC3 after you made the adjustment? As for the decel pop, if it comes back after calibrating your TPS and if you already have the PAIR blocked off and the hose into the airbox, increase the fuel in the 0% column until the pop disappears (start at 10% then go up by 5% until its gone), use the RPM range at least 500 above or below where the issue is.

Running very rich; went from an 11 week, 4000 mile average of 37 MPG down to 27 after this TPS adjustment. Still running the M234-003 Muzzy Full System PC3 tune from DynoJet.

So is this ECU display info or calculation of actuals miles/gal at tank-up?

I know what you're getting at: can I trust the display. Based on fuel consumption as indicated by the fuel gauge, the exhaust smell, extra pipe soot and running conditions, it's absolutely richer than before the TPS adjustment. Yes, I re-calibrated throttle position immediately following TPS adjustments.

Current questions for me to answer:

1. Output at TPS appears in spec now, but what about INput voltage?
2. Could a less-than-desirable ground reduce input voltage, resulting in a drop of output voltage?

More to follow...

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/9/2017 @ 8:57 AM *

I think Nightmare's got it. If you turn the sensor, it either cannot read the top end or the bottom end of the map. That would cure a problem with the top or the bottom by simply not going there but it could lead to other problems.

So lets say you are now starting the map at 15% TP when the throttle is closed. The bike runs smooth now. You would be skipping the first four columns of the map. Your mapping might be in the 100% column (my guess) when you were actually only at 60% throttle and it would stay at 100% mapping up to 100% actual throttle.

Calibrating the TPS to the PC3 should fix this situation if that is what you have going on. However, seems to me, it should have fixed it even without rotating the TPS and you tried that. It did not solve the problem.

There is something wrong with the fueling in the lower TP columns. Your sensor is no longer accessing that mapping either because you turned it or because it is not receiving the proper voltage range.

You have fixed the sick TPS as well as you can by adjusting its position and calibrating its reduced range but it is still not functioning as it should. As Nightmare has alluded, you might now have maximally aggressive timing at a lower rpm and Romans has said a million times the Gen1 timing is VERY aggressive at stock settings.

OR

The TPS is a red herring. I would consider making it work correctly though. The voltage you showed me in your email was out of spec so it couldn't hurt to replace it or check wiring or conduct the input voltage test.

If not the TPS, maybe injectors?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/9/2017 @ 9:10 AM *

Based on all comments, let's do this:

Tonight I'll pull the battery and clean the terminals. (I seem to remember seeing them as not being all that stellar but not bad enough for me to feel compelled to address them.) Since we're only talking about a difference of .1 volts being output from the TPS, maybe there's enough of a drop in "difference in potential energy" from the battery posts to create this small drop in output voltage.

I'll post tonight. See what I did there??

Devin-

haha....he said "post!" EDIT your post! I don't thik that is going to make a dif though. Hope I'm wrong.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/9/2017 @ 9:28 AM *

New information...

Pulled the battery and verified connections: All good.

Hooked up the laptop to the PC3 but the values didn't change as I was hoping they would. Well shit.

I adjusted the TPS back to its original physical location and called DynoJet back and asked again about the PC3 values in the Set Throttle Position window. He double-checked, apologized and stated the PC3 values are simply a reference, not a voltage reading. Again... well shit.

I'm back where I started - a bike that runs very well above 4000 but is (likely) going to be worthless in traffic, through town, in heat. Not good.

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/9/2017 @ 5:05 PM *

Hooked up the laptop to the PC3 but the values didn't change as I was hoping they would. Well shit.

The values didn't change from what? What they were reading when you last set them?

So it's check input voltage now or will you move on to the injectors?

What explanation do you have for the problem going away after you turned the TPS? If it was running good, why return it to its initial position? Are you worried about running the wrong TP in the map?

I see some parallels here.

You initially were playing with fuel and that seemed to help. I assume you added fuel down low. ...but the problem still came back?

Then adjust the TPS. That also had some positive effect on performance. I assume you rotated the TPS so that it was accessing fueling for larger TPs which would make the fueling richer than otherwise.

Now you're thinking the air temperature sensor is triggering fueling that is too lean when the air is hot. The bike runs better when you add fuel with the PC3.

The IATS does add fuel when the air is cold. Does it also subtract fuel when the air is hot? If so, test the IATS and replace it if necessary.

Sounds like a solid plan, thank you sir :)

Worth a shot. It seems unlikely that Kaw would engineer a system that could remove a lareg percentage of fuel though. That could cause dangerous running conditions up high if the sensor was sensing a false signal. It would be less of a danger to lean fuel down low where you are having trouble so it should remain the primary suspect. If you test it and it's good, on to something something else.

1. When building something as complex as a computer bike, there is this evidence called...'Formula.'
2. When you are up against a computer and its sensors, there is a term called... 'Backup.'
3. When a component fails on a computer bike a light turns on fandango, or better known as a... 'Code.'
4. When fandango is not present, squid meets wallet which is close to its tail, known as... 'Chasing one's...'
5. When you fill in the blanks, no light present, this is known as... 'Within spec.'
6. When squid fiddlefucks with formula, there is a wave length change that is this side of a code, or better known as... 'Looking in all the wrong places.'
7. When determining a computer glitch, the common sense move is known as... 'Disable all aftmrkt attachments.'
8. When all is said and done and the one move is not adhered to, this is known as... 'Fiddlefuck... Fiddlefuck away.'

Hub, I have no idea whether you're trying to help or your poking fun, but here's an answer to what appears to be a question of, "Did I remove the PC3 from the equation"?

Yes I did. Symptom persists.

"Did I pull the full-system Muzzy off and put the OEM exhaust system back on"? No I did not, I don't have access to it; I purchased this bike used 10 weeks ago with the full-system having already been on the bike.

I think he's saying you are so fiddlefucked?

Both. There is always tech in the tease. With little to go on... now you mention 'disable' and it's still there. Now that that's out of the way, the exhaust is moot as well. Muffler is on the spent side, where the final fuel spit is calculated before the intake opens.

Years ago I played with the IAP sensor and this caused a loss at the bottom as if the key was turned off, then took off if throttle was applied, to bucking on and off quickly. Remember, I set the backup so this is watt I remembered if the formula changes. I doubt this will work, but you could swap the atmo sensor under the seat with the same IAP at the throttle body. My thinking is... the mechanical part being sucked on every intake, and pressured upon lift going the other way. Mechanically, the atmo is just sitting there and slowly moves via air pressure only. Say both read the same values resistance wise, but the mechanics inside might be lagging. Then again I doubt it because that much lag at the mechanics would throw a code... I would imagine.

First thing I'd look at is the air cleaner. Then the plugs, then compression. Then set the valves and sync the bike. Now the tuneup is not in question.

The throttle and sub sensors have a throttle closed value of 0.63v and 0.62v respectively. Book says this base number or above. The WOT numbers are in full volts, but they mention this to be this number or lower. You could match the sub to the throttle's number so as not to lower its number. Will a matching 0.63 help? I doubt it.

Are the subs out of the bike? My '08 never had this stumble you both speak of.
Clean what you can on the air side of the air cleaner. Run without the air cleaner, or have you tried that? And no, you won't hurt the bike chasing a low end stumble. Duplicate it to see where you're at.