Fair enough, tease away... and as always, thank you for your time and input.

Not as a measure of disrespect to your intellect, I will forego the plugs, compression, valves and throttle body sync; the bike runs fantastically above 4-5K.

The air filter was verified as the first item when this all began. Have I tried running without the air filter - I've not, so I'll keep that on the list.

Are the subs out - I'm unsure but during the point at which I get time to check the intake air temp sensor, I'll take a look. The fact the symptom CONSISTENTLY shows itself when there's a lack of cool air FLOWING through the bike tells me this is part of the problem. Code or no code, this cannot be ignored. It is repeatable. Until a sufficient amount of fuel is adjusted into the equation.

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The fact the symptom CONSISTENTLY shows itself when there's a lack of cool air FLOWING through the bike tells me this is part of the problem.

Cool air? Let me get this out of the way:
A. Yes, the cool air on morning starts, it purrs, and not one glitch of driveability occurs.
B. Yes, once the bike is up to running temp, it lags with all the symptoms mentioned, even on cooler days.
C. Yes, this was "CONSISTENTLY" happening all without any pig helpers in the loop.

Not as a measure of disrespect to your intellect, I will forego the plugs, compression, valves and throttle body sync; the bike runs fantastically above 4-5K.

None taken. Tizz why I sign off like I do.

Signed,
NOLTT (no one listens to turtle)

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I will forego the plugs, compression, valves and throttle body sync; the bike runs fantastically above 4-5K.

The low end is probably where you would notice a problem with most of those.

Plugs, I had mine in for something like 47,000 miles and they ran fine.

Compression, mine is at the low end of spec and still runs fine.

Valves were done and rechecked but ran no different than all exhausts out of spec.

Throttle body sync, way off balance (as far as I could tell from a manometer with no Hg/mm scale to measure) but ran no better after.

If you had a severe problem with one or two of those, I can see how you might feel it in how the engine performs. It would be a good idea to do all the maintenance but I have yet to hear anyone fixed their bike by doing the maintenance. You might avoid blowing it up but I think even that is unlikely.

Check the IATS.

Check the thermostat.

Plugs and compression are easy to check.

Valves are not too bad to check but they are a lot more work to adjust.

Throttle bodies sync is not easy but I have a lot of tips that will help.

I did not even know we had an atmospheric pressure sensor. If we do, it is not very effective because people who run at high altitude still need to tune for that.

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I did not even know we had an atmospheric pressure sensor. If we do, it is not very effective because people who run at high altitude still need to tune for that.

IAP suck is that it sucks less with all the molecules spread apart.
Atmo sensor is pressured well too. So between the two settings, show me the bike didn't jet down spit wise. Running a sea level map is going to run richer so where is the air then? Maybe that's why, but not the OE map. The OE has the parts readjusted for the air, via sensor design to compensate for less air.

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The OE has the parts readjusted for the air, via sensor design to compensate for less air.

I've never ridden my bike that much above sea level so I have no idea what the AFR would be. There has to be some reason 14s benefit from a tune when run at high altitude. It could be that the sensors on the bike designed to adjust fueling do not react quick enough to get the AFR correct for anything but cruising. AutoTune samples 10x/second and it can't come close to keeping a constant target AFR under any conditions but steady cruising at one rpm. Change throttle position and it will take Autotune a few seconds to adjust. The previous adjustment is now gone so it has to relearn when you return to cruising at the same rpm as last time. At high altitude where the AFR would be way off, that would be a nightmare if you were riding even a little aggressively. Fortunately Autotune adjustments can be saved if you want to take the time to do that on your laptop but not adjustments made by the OEM sensors.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/11/2017 @ 8:52 AM *

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It could be that the sensors on the bike designed to adjust fueling do not react quick enough to get the AFR correct for anything but cruising.

Rook, let me remind you of the universal [computer] movement of DTT, or better known as 'Huston, we have a problem.' E travels this side of light speed [aka-resistance] thru that ECU. The 'Threshold' or a measured value saved in the capacitor only lasts for a tone wheel window of a millisecond or less. It is 'Discharged' before the next tone wheel window has been recognized. This timing is in a constant 'Trigger' mode dumping 'volatile' data, i.e., only saved for a milli or less.

The example being: By the time you see the code light lit up, that 'backup' occurred when the next tone wheel window happened as per spin up, locked brake, wheelie, etc. You just see it seconds later on the dash. That's how fast the speed is in the calc of it @... lightening speed.

So when the 'analog' is being spit out to the injector, the pig captured that value, changed it that quick before the next fire off. See how much time the crank had to play out 3 strokes before the fire stroke already has the spit ready and waiting?... within light speed... Get it?

44mag may have something as simple as a clogged air cleaner. Even though it looks clean, there are still clean/dirty hours going thru those pleats and whoever enters first sets the AFR. So if there is an air restriction, same gas spit, but less air turns it rich. If more air enters (no ac in the loop) this has more air filling the void (less restriction) and some of the gas is spit back out on the close. It's not more air or more gas, it's a timing event of who enters faster in a ratio kind of entry.

X is throttle opening demand = that math number.
Y is the crank speed occurring = that pickup output number.
Z is the same spit timed to fire [in proportion to crank speed aka advance marks] = the final AFR number.

44mag has yet to answer a, b, or c, ie, if it occurs cold or at running temp? So I think I have him stumped with the cool factor once the engine is up to running temp.

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When the engine is first started, it runs as normal as I can imagine it should; ambient temps be 55 or 85.

Once engine at temp, when air speed decreases (in town or stop and go traffic), symptom appears; ambient temps be 55 or 85.

When ambient temps are higher, symptom is more prevalent.

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/11/2017 @ 9:00 PM *

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If you look at the blueprints of resistors, it has a running temp before it breaks down. E (aka magnetism) is composed of mag/heat/chemical reaction. So if I take heat as a factor, apply it to the ECU, sensors, anything that E passes thru it, the code would pop on showing it's out of spec.

So heat wise, you could take a heat gun/hair drier, heat the crank pickup, the scenario would be... runs fine cold, cuts out when hot. So with a cold engine, the gun cooking the pickup, the cutting out should occur in theory with a cold engine.

That being said, no codes seem to be set. If I run the 3-point variable, 3 being something like E, solid/liquid/gas, etc., you'd gather the air temp sensor, water temp sensor, crank sensor as the 3-variables to look at heat wise with a heat gun. Again, without the sensors coding when hot/out of spec in general, the code should hit the dash but does not.

Crank sensor - can't be disabled = Turns the bike into a boat anchor which creates spark [at the plug] eventually.
Water temp - can be disabled = but runs wild as in driveability problems but still runs erratic.
Air temp - cam be disabled = and runs like a tre without a driveability problem in other words.

Crank sensor - remove cover, heat pickup, install cover, start bike to duplicate problem.
WTS - pull connector off and connect meter to pins at the sensor and match book via bike's heat rather than remove the sensor, dip in hot water and read the values against the book.
ATS - pull connector off and test ride to duplicate problem when up to running temp.
A/C - pull from the beginning and note change when up to running temp.

Like I said, without my assfactor on the seat I'm pulling straws.

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As always, I appreciate the thoughtful reply; thank you sir.

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So when the 'analog' is being spit out to the injector, the pig captured that value, changed it that quick before the next fire off. See how much time the crank had to play out 3 strokes before the fire stroke already has the spit ready and waiting?... within light speed... Get it?

It's not the speed of the signal that matters in this situation, it's the speed of the sensor. Of course, if all we have to adjust fueling through OEM sensors is intake air temperature and atmospheric pressure, the sensors could be slow and they still should be effective for those....but they aren't. People at high altitude still need to tune AFR. Maybe the OEM sensors do not have a wide enough range (i.e., narrowband sensors with only three signals).

Anyway, Altitude isn't magnum's problem. Let's hope it's a sensor that is designed to react to heat. I hope it's not a non-heat related sensor that is malfunctioning because of heat. That would be a wild goose chase.

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I'm starting to feel a little guilty here because of all the brain power everyone's investing.

While I do not know everything there is to know about cars/bikes/trucks, I've been around long enough and done enough of this sort of thing to know this - if after all the work I've invested to this point, if it's still not "right", I'm going to adjust my fuel in the lower third of the tune and call it good. I'm over working on this bike. I bought it to ride, not fucking wrench on it non-stop. I wrenched on my '92 Vmax for 10 yrs and I'm not doing that with this bike. I've had the fairings off and on about 20 times and that's way more than I had ever planned.

The K-N filter is soaking as I type this. Once it dries, I'll oil it and test. If the symptom is still there, I'm going to do what I know works - add more fuel to the region the gremlin lives and ride the fucking thing. I'm over it.

Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who's tried to help me. I've simply reached my limit.

All the best-

Devin

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I bought it to ride, not fucking wrench on it non-stop.

I hope the mod bug doesn't bite. I've been wrenching on mine for the last 10 months and that was mostly to get a couple oil gauges.

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The K-N filter is soaking as I type this. Once it dries, I'll oil it and test.

Its gonna blow ...

Hubs heat gun test is very good trouble shooting advise it you get bored and decide to keep checking things for root cause.

Anyway, sounds like you know what you're doing - have a great ride

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Thanks Rudy :)

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Initial test results are as follows:

Pulling the air filter out provided no change. No worries, it's off the list. (So is having a clean filter since now it's clean too.)

I added 25% to all cells from 500-3250 RPM as a starting point. So far this eliminated the symptom. It looks like I'm going to lose roughly 3 MPG but I couldn't care less about this; a smooth, powerful bike that gets 35 mpg is still impressive in my opinion.

Time will tell but this is a step in the right direction.

Devin-

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/12/2017 @ 11:59 AM *

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Maybe the OEM sensors do not have a wide enough range

Rook, watt stops your theory is if we look at the parts manual. There is only one sensor for the bike. There are no faster, wider range of sensors built for the mile high city say. The atmo sensor has said pressure adjusted for Denver. The atmo is now pressured for sea level. That's the beauty of FI and its pressured type sensors.

Carb wise, we can't change the jets in some old car we take trip up the mountains. We'll start to run rich and chug up the grade. Those days are over. Man is stuck in the 14.7 world of pressure. Give or take a few ounces of pressure, the cylinder still equals out to 14.7, but we adjust the AFR with a pig, and FI adjusts the jetting per say via sensors.
Does that make sense in a way?

44mag, you're welcome. One reason I remain stock is to hear and see the horror stories of so many combinations of pipe/pig settings, where it's more an art than swapping shit out and hope for the best.

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a smooth, powerful bike that gets 35 mpg is still impressive in my opinion.

I haven't even bothered to check but I'm sure mine has only gotten about 35 mpg since changing to the full system. I don't worry about fuel economy on this bike.

The atmo sensor has said pressure adjusted for Denver. The atmo is now pressured for sea level. That's the beauty of FI and its pressured type sensors.

Yes, the pressure of Denver or sea level is not going to change in the wink of an eye. Such a sensor could take a full minute to detect a change of a hundred feet of altitude and that would be plenty fast for most situations. Whatever the sensor does do and however fast it does it, it still is not getting the correct AFR for a 14 in the mountains even if it's been there 10 years. ...not that I've experienced it but we have had people feel the bike was weak or ran poorly at high altitude.

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I don't blame you Hub, not a bit.

Here's the latest: after another hundred miles over the course of a couple of hours, the bike continues to run without the presence of the dreaded symptom. I ran my normal combination of some highway and LOTs of slow speed traffic. Even though the bike runs cooler with the added fuel, there were still plenty of times where if the symptom was going to appear, it would have done so.

If this continues to hold, I find it odd for the reason to have been sections of the DynoJet cookie-cutter map to have been so lean as to cause it to run as poorly as it did. I know Hub's made mention of it before, and it's certainly looking like this was the case for my bike as well.

We shall see...

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It would be very odd indeed if you have the exact exhaust that map was made with. If you can get ahold of another full system Muzzy map and compare the AFR tables and Fuel tables, that might shed some light. It can be difficult to compare maps however if they have very different AFR tables.

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Maybe that's it then; I believe I have the M14 but they only have an M10. I called back when this all started to see if they offered an M14 map but they didn't.

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Such a sensor could take a full minute to detect a change of a hundred feet of altitude and that would be plenty fast for most situations.

This is the concept, Rook. When we rise in altitude, the sensor detects the change within milliseconds. Think linear. If you think about it, your missing the detection as in a split second of spinning the tire up or lofting a wheel up. Your 'full minute' would have us flipped over before k-skid kicked in. It just does not work like this per minutes say, but in milliseconds of detection, then intervene within the next milli. It's that fast. That's the beauty of abs/k-skid/wheelie, etc.

The 555 timer is king [inside that black box]!

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/13/2017 @ 4:22 PM *

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Fuel cut is annoying isn't it?

Ivan

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Maybe that's it then; I believe I have the M14 but they only have an M10.

I kind of doubt if that is it. I think the maps would be closer than that. If that is all it is, you definitely owe us all a beer.

When we rise in altitude, the sensor detects the change within milliseconds. Think linear. If you think about it, your missing the detection as in a split second of spinning the tire up or lofting a wheel up. Your 'full minute' would have us flipped over before k-skid kicked in. It just does not work like this per minutes say, but in milliseconds of detection, then intervene within the next milli. It's that fast.

Traction control has to work in milliseconds to be of any use. A land vehicle never encounters changes in elevation that would require a fast acting sensor. Maybe by entering a storm front but not changing elevation. It doesn't matter if the APS samples 100x/second or two. The point is, it is not up to the task of keeping the bike running perfectly at high elevation. I am assuming this is because it works similar to Autotune's closed loop function (slow) and we've already shown that is not satisfactory for anything but cruising. Change TPs and your back to correcting and countercorrecting until the system finally hits the right AFR but by then, you're at another TP...and so on.

Fuel cut is annoying isn't it?

Would that cause a problem with idle? ...and wouldn't all Gen1 14 owners be having this problem? ...and wouldn't the problem go away with the PC3 taken out? Mag, you did try a different map didn't you? I guess you did in the sense you've made your own map. I'd try another to see if it's as good as your edited map.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/13/2017 @ 9:27 PM *

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Try jumping the clutch switch and see if the problem goes away....

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A short re-cap...

I bought the bike as-is with 3098 miles. Already had the Muzzy full system and a PC3. Muzzy block-off plates were also already present.

I noticed the symptom within a day or two of ownership. I found the map installed was for a stock exhaust setup; I changed to the Muzzy M10 full system. Symptom still present.

Unplugged the PC3 - symptom still present. (The Stock map and Muzzy full system maps were the only two I tried.)

I then added 25% fuel across all TP% from 500-3000 RPM, and 15% across all TP% at 3250 RPM - symptom is barely noticeable; only at 2250-ish RPM when riding in town.

One thing I do NOT know is whether or not the secondaries are still installed; I suspect they aren't. Since by adding fuel and the symptom disappears, we can now establish the symptom is caused by a lean mixture. If we (for the sake of conversation) assume the secondaries have been removed, it would stand to reason, the added air flow from absent secondaries would be the reason for the leaned mixture. Again, if this is true, and the map isn't 'looking' for added air flow from missing secondaries, this very well could be what's caused the lean condition at 3000 RPM and below.

If at some point, I remove the tank again (which I sincerely hope is never), I'll look for secondaries at that time. Otherwise, I'm going to hope the symptom remains gone so I can simply enjoy the bike as was first intended.

All the best-

Devin

* Last updated by: 44magnum on 8/14/2017 @ 6:38 AM *

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