I ride an 08 zx14 and want to understand one of the engines least desirable qualities.

I thought I'd throw the question wide open. there is much discussion about whether the ignition timing is retarded in 1st gear, and how much stronger the engine is without flies as evidenced by dyno charts that test WOT scenarios. This is not relevant to me. As well as exploiting the unlimited awesomness of the zx14, I also ride it to and from work in suburban and city traffic. I like to do so briskly but politely (read: without revvng it up to 4000+rpm). Other 1000+cc bikes have such a strong bottom end that 2000rpm and a careful clutch/throttle control is all that is required to make the cages rapidly shrink in the mirrors. Yet when I ride the ZX the same was as all of the previous bikes, it just fades, then I have to pull in the clutch, feed in more juice and try again.

My experiences on other bikes and cars 'lean' me towards ignition timing. This makes sense to my little brain. But I've only had this bike for 1000km. Maybe there are others here that have already figured out what causes this or what fixes it.

I hope answers to this question will guide some of the mods I'm thinking of.

Russty

* Last updated by: russty on 2/23/2009 @ 4:41 AM *

Got nothing to do so I'll answer a third of your posts. First of all I'm not sure what bikes with all that low end torque you are used to. This a high perf bike so the cam and induction system is tuned for high rpm. You will not have a lot of torque under 3000 rpm. I like to be somewhat subtle in traffic also so stock exhaust are the best choice that way you don't have to restrict yourself so much.

Fair point, I'm not looking for a v-twin or goldwing. I'm comparing it to a stock standard 1998 R1 that is in VGC that has travelled 65,000km (40,000mi?). I've been riding it since new and it has always had more than enough grunt at a standing start. And then once mobile, it is so quick (esp in 1st) that it makes me giggle. My point is this is a pure sports bike that has plenty of grunt from idle and delivers torque progressively through to 10,000rpm, there are no obvious dips or peaks. I think both these are in a similar class with respect to engine tuning. Both are peaky sports bikes, BUT c'mon, this is a 1350cc being outclassed at low rpm by a 10yo half worn 1000cc.

My complaint is below the 3-4000rpm point where something seems to change and the torque comes in with a sudden rush. From 4000 up I think the ZX has more than the R1.

I recently experienced this rush in 1st gear mid corner when it just launched away without any change in throttle. This is a little unnerving. If that happens in the wet then I'll have a break away rear tyre, mid corner, in traffic. I would personally find it easier to ride if all that torque was more linear from idle like older bikes used to be as it is more predictable and more manageable through clutch control.

Russty

Air timing, not ignition. Are your flies still in the bike? There you go. I had open fly and sub-rod removed. Big difference if you want out of the hole response. I helped a guy over-see his valve adjust. When I left his house, I was in the street, he was standing next to me, I hit the starter button and took off. I think that was the quickest I've accelerated away from an object [not in motion] was gauge how quick he was behind me, like within nanoseconds.

Thank you Hub. 1st hand experience, just what I was looking for. Now, the next questions for you are:
1. What other changes did you observe when you did this change? I hear anecdotes like popping on decel.
2. I recall you reinstalled the subs. Why?

I've been thinking that the purpose of the subs was to restrict the volume of air that can be inhaled. I then guessed that the ECU would reduce the amount of juice, to match the reduced air, coupled with a late detonation resulting in a 600cc torque curve until the ECU got the flies out of the way and lit up the fire works on time at about 3000rpm transforming sick litle sickle into fun beast. This is all post vino analysis (hic!)

Thanks
Russty

The R1 uses the EXUP system to keep low end torque high if you still have stock exhasut. Also the R1 is about 130lbs lighter than the zx14.THis makes a big difference. I have the 03 R1 also so I know what you are talking about My R1 feels faster up to about 80mph though my r1 is not stock and the ninja is. Gearing is also a difference on the feel. Here is some comparisons from sport rider mag.

motorcycle issue quarter mile (sec. @ mph) 60-80mph time (sec.) 80-100mph time (sec.) top speed (mph)
YZF-R1 ('98) 6/98, 12/98, 12/99 10.22 @ 140.15 3.13 3.19 165.8
YZF-R1 ('02) 8/02 10.10 @ 141.75 2.79 2.97 169
ZX-14R ('06) 8/06 9.689 @ 145.90 3.08 3.28 184.5 (limited),

Hi hoopie,

I hear ya about the exup. This is one of the reasons that I never changed the exhaust. Also I'm not a racer, so any restrictions that might exist at high rpm are irrelevant for me, it goes plenty fast for what I need.

However, I've recently had experiences with this bike that make me wonder exactly how much of the low down torque is due to the exhaust. This may repeat what I've written in other threads; I got the R1 back after one particular service at a new shop I am now loyal to, to be disappointed by the loss of low down torque. Everything else was excellent. The bike is in perfect condition having been well used but particularly well maintained.

I questioned the mechanics, whose reaction was "it's a sports bike, you shouldn't expect low down torque" So I reminded them that it was there a day ago and now it's gone. They were very helpful and patient. We tried messing with the exup adjustment, and it only made a minor change. We tried many adjustments, in isolation, so we could 'measure' cause and effect. I know hub's going to want to bitslap me here, but the one change that made all the difference was rotating the ignition plate. When we advanced it slightly, it hauled like a train. Problem solved.

Also try a standing start on the ZX14 in 2nd gear. Now making allowance for the taller gearing and I find the ZX14 pulls stronger in 2nd than in 1st. I'm sure a side by side comparo would show the 1st gear starter taking off quicker than the 2nd gear starter, but the weakness in 1st, if present in 2nd and every other gear would surely bog down or stall the motor. Rather it feels much stronger in 2nd.

Subs = Traction Control... My AZZ is designed-inn to remain seated ~ Period! Every little tweak brings a new bike over more to it's preset HP/TQ rating.
A-MODE: Stock Add-On'/Take off's.....
Pipe = Hidden Air Speed
Subs= Hidden Air Speed - Lock plates open(will code/Remove plate(will not code)
Advance = Hidden time window to fire off sooner= Hey! No Fair!
Weight = Hidden HP is power to weight ~ Whine_NO is calories times vino per pasta fa zool
Fuel to AIRatio Piggy Cutter = Hidden HP is push the HP w/more TNT
Code Select = G-pro/tre/270homadeOhm'e

B-MODE:
Add = All above A-Modes
Add = Ported Head
Add = Bore Job
Add = Cam w/valve train, (springs/light weight ti-ta keepers, retainers, other top end parts to compliment cam)
Add = Turbo
Add = Lighten Chassis ~ Are wheels, brakes clipers, other un-sprung weight to compliment chassis
Add = More Sub Mods ~ Bore for more air are throttle bodies, sub/rod-less, etc.

C-Mode:
Grow = Balls -You built a Monsteer Azz Sucker Pucker!
Grow = Yup, Dare it is!(an unmanageable street bike is traction out of control my wheel spin)
Grow = Moss behind year ears, Garandpaw is still a cable ripper...
Grow = ING Old, you chasing the same old need for speed, (High-5'z)!

Thank you Hub.YW

1st hand experience, just what I was looking for. Now, the next questions for you are:

1. What other changes did you observe when you did this change? I hear anecdotes like popping on decel. Decel is a given. When I rolled off, made that left, followed a car, said there is the pop? I added that second pipe= All stock with that minor left exhaust a touch open but my cats do not leave the building. Say the center cat was not there like it made a difference, remember I ran a few errands with that single pipe gave me less pop but it was there still. I wanna conclude I had less pop being what would be filled [on coast mind you] is a single pipe full of unspents not shared with the second stock pipe to lean me out.

I would have to re-install to a single pipe, hook a camera audio to the rear end, slow-mo maybe both single and dual, listen to both sounds off the left pipe and hear/feel the gargle loading the hacked pipe does to mid-cabling. You know that "mid" where the throttle is mid between throttling and not throttling = Mid Throttling?

Yeah, you should hear that puppy do the, 'mouth wash gargle.' And note for note she loads up (coded now being I have the '06 t-body in backup) all stock like piggyless/codes turned off, "Looking for Linear" sounding. I'm clicking your Youtube exhaust notes, [not yours of course, russty, is just say inn. Someone had the camera out of bike's physical range and all you hear is exhaust first. I said, oh that is some nice sounding tone there and he pans the rear end now. What tone do you think still has that certain note? He now moves and I see a set of stockers. He's bone stock. I have no clue if that was stock or he had a piggy sitting jetted in idle, I have no clue? Sure, you can change to any after market, we are going to be about the same in popping or more, it plays leanskis on lift, so if you wanna hear reference, I added for you when I heard a pop. Usually it is your concern about popping and I ignore you thinking you can quiet that popping bubble changing to hearing it more in a more open note to the air. It is popping in the stock pipes with the same lift at the throttle. You just do not hear it as pronounced. You wanna go nuts hearing that pop or depop your squidcity stopit all ready with the pop of nature farting out de ass. Nature lets your ass lift and pop is same-same out day exhaust is lie about everyday you pop piss tune don't give me that shit.

2. I recall you reinstalled the subs. Why?

I've been thinking that the purpose of the subs was to restrict the volume of air that can be inhaled. I then guessed that the ECU would reduce the amount of juice, to match the reduced air, coupled with a late detonation resulting in a 600cc torque curve until the ECU got the flies out of the way and lit up the fire works on time at about 3000rpm transforming sick litle sickle into fun beast. This is all post vino analysis (hic!) That first sentence said it all you walked to my same conclusion we are on the same page. The vino was added to your scenario in another post. I won't repeat the answer, being it is on another post in your thread somewhere else. I have to toast the real deal is she has no retard at the ignition [is for sure baby]! We are air guitar all the way. This think makes hey, I like your thinking and that is the deal is keep it a secret; like I can keep a secret open the book is tape it closed is so is my mouth.

Dis is wean-land all over again we are in OZ. Stop with the retard and that Ivan deal is gonna make you book smart and pop the fart on that lit'til sick'kill is not killing spark, it's killing the air. Now, think about that is how you gonna spark a retard at 3,000rpm? Are you thinking old style is now walk backward is where you came from before fuel injected acts the carb/ignition, we are same-same at 3,000rpm so say the advancer springs, you think advancer springs is walk air lag at 3k she opens wide the rpm revs up. Was the advancer before 3K at electronic spring tension or do the advance blocks return to static is balance the springs and weights to linear with air speed and you are locked no matter WOT.

Mess with my ignition at peak rpm or when the air speed matches advancer arms flinging out is she is locked and loaded. Can you imagine spark knock, detonation, rich fuel heat burning late down the cylinder wall is cook the water a lot faster you are out of that lean/lean is heat you mess with advance is 10° ATDC, you better have that gas burned, because the crank arm is lengthened so much is the fulcrum and all that physics is ideal fire is 10 degrees she is power stroke on the down stroke is pressure is all she wrote unless you piggy and add more burn what is lean by a tiny window.

Just for grins, I would install that advancer and work it up to 4°; see if asspucker can go to a certain on-ramp and puddle jump a cable full better than I had it hacked-tuned that day. Those were the subless-shaftless days. I am just as smooth. Only difference to me is as slight as the difference is, the difference is a flashing dash or a non-flashing dash I can live with the subeerear ass puck her toned down air sucker.

Take a study at the gear changes as the sub opens more. It's geared to give you premium performance and looking at that sub move me just banging down gear to rip it from first, you do not see that throttle bell housing move, but you sure see me gear down to first and the sub opens to the rpm. Show me ignition retard if the air guitar is moving I'm keeping time with my foot this thing makes; bee you tea full music.

Gonna drill this in you so you can seat of the pants the air and not advaNANanNaNaaaaaNa I told you not ignition, you stepped in it and eye present the 5 air guitars in 3 brands. You along with Chris Ulrich of RRWorld have an air issue if the OTTO-cycle runs like you installed a carb and a set of advancer springs. I am asking the question to you now: Would that run like the old bikes with electronic ignition, but the trick was first electronic, then evolved the advancer is way in the future is the tone ring count off the crank. No more advancer spring is there on the 14 or say, close to technical is 1999 or before, look for electronic with springs of old.

The advancer is on the electronic ignition, yes. The advancer on the bike 1999 is in the ECU making map. I have yet to figure out how to take those springs and remain linear in the ignition in the absolute way the bike fires off at 3K is full advance. I think I am going in the right direction if you and I both are up to that one sentence your assfigured out that assdata. Show me the money! Show me I am going to bog air or bog advancer springs?

Yes, russty, you are going to bog the advancer springs is look at that linear spring in the ignition advance and follow me pull your pop out of your ass is Ivan has your abstract is speaking out of his. Like, someone wean Chris Ulrich or show me that bike he was assfactor the data on. Myth my advance in the ECU or back-step in the evolution when the spring left the building give me air guitar that advanced tickets are sold out.

* Last updated by: Hub on 2/21/2009 @ 5:56 PM *

Just rip out them stupid flies and fit a PC3.

I got of a ZX9R and found my UK '07 model 1400 absolutely gutless below 5k, felt more like a FZR400 I used to own.

I fitted a Gi-Pro which helped (TRE to you guys) but it was still only about the same as y old 9R, I traded it in for a tourer so wanted more grunt not the same, plus a 1400 sports tourer should outgrunt a 900 sportsbike even if in same state of tune due to 50% more capacity.

Flies out is the cure, I fitted a PC3 and had it custom mapped on a dyno, the mapping adds a lot of fuel at low RPM even at moderat throttle openings (Typically 10% - 30% more fuel between 3 and 5k on 40% throttle)

Not saying the engine will be damaged without a remap, especially as at cruising throttle openings \ revs the corrections are much smaller, and at high rpm the bikes are very rich stock (at least UK ones are) mine was leaned off 5-15% from 8-11k on 100% throttle.

At 3,000 RPM my bike gained about 50% torque, the dyno setup was done in 4th, where the flies would be far more open than 1st, you probably get 60% - 80% more grunt in 1st \ 2nd, I can now use 4th to overtake where the stock bike would have needed to be in 2nd.

What you get is really solid grunt from just above tickover in any gear, much more than your old R1.

g'day Rasher

Thanks for the post. I'm getting this message a lot, so that's encouraging. I'm trying to establish the right package of mods before I do it. I haven't got the time or the money to engage in trial and error, plus when I hear all the torque about peak power and 1/4 mi times I begin to think that my needs are different from other riders.

95% of my riding is commuting in suburban and city traffic, the other 5% is in the twistys on some weekends. I'm sure the usual hi performance mods work wonders for that 5% of my riding. But what about the other 95%. I worry that mods like flies out, 4-1 and PC will make things worse down low than they are now. My 08 zx14 is real nice above 3k. Sure, it'd be nice to have more, but at what price? I'm OK with a little $$ but I need to keep that smooth turbine feel down low.

I like the sound of those 1st/2nd gear gains. Were there any negatives from this mod? Were these gains with stock pipes?

I've already got the PC, the m/f hub (no hub, the dynojet variety!) and ignition module are on order. I'm undecided about pipes and flies. Last time I did PC and pipes was on a GSX1400. It was marvelous, except, the low rpm/low throttle, 1st gear off idle scenarios, when it ran like crap. So once bitten...

Can you tell I'm a fussy, anal, worry wart?

I need to ride one that's already been modded. If anyone hears of one for sale in SE Qld, please let me know.

* Last updated by: russty on 2/23/2009 @ 4:41 AM *

It is the best mod for "normal" riding.

With the flies in you only really get about 10% throttle belwo 5k in lower gears, removing them gives bags more grunt.

4-1 and other stuff may drop a bit of the low down power, but not everything you will gain from the flies out mod, for a few hundred dollars you get a massive benefit where you use the bike most.

I hated it stock, especially two up as it had no immediate power and I was always aving to change gear, I can now pull top gear from 50MPH and use 4th for a fast overtake at 50MPH, even two up with luggage, with the bike standard I struggled to overtake in 2nd quite often.

The 2008 bike is supposed to be much better and looks fairly close to an '07 bike with the flies out, the problem is most dyno runs are done in 4th, so it hides the low gear restriction issue.

My bike (and others according to owners I have spoken too) is faultless with the flies out, lots of smooth progressive power from just off idle.

You will find it much better commuting as it will pull away cleaner and faster with less revs and you will change gear far less, count your gearchanges on a trip you do now and again after removing the flies, I bet you change gear less than half as often.

Most UK owners use the bikes for touring and commuting (i.e. real world riding like yourself) drag racing is not very popular over here and the "Power Ranger" posers tend to go for full on sports bikes like the GSX-R's, ZX10's and R1's.

Most 1400 owners (Bike is called a ZZR 1400 in the UK) tend to clock up miles and like the flies out as it makes the bike much nicer to ride in all conditions. Many tend to fit different end cans, but not many go for 4-1 systems.

Most the end cans give very similar results, a tiny bit more power with no loss low down, I want to change mine just to save weight as the originals are seriously heavy.

We did 2,000 miles around the Pyrenees (Mountains) in France and Spain and I hardly ever went over 5-6K even two up with luggage, on the longer runs and main routes I could leave it in top gear for hours on end. We also had some very wet weather whilst on mountain passes, here a clean throttle response was essential and at no point would I have prefered the stock power delivery.

I know about 20 1400 owners here who have pulled the flies and they all very happy - I have not heard of a single person ever put in them back in again!

I also get more MPG, at $8 a gallon it all helps!

I am sure you won't be dissapointed.

Regards

Rasher

* Last updated by: Rasher on 2/23/2009 @ 5:22 AM *

I hope your not comparing the 07 flies out with the 08 flies out scenario. The effect is much larger on the 07. The 08 models Kawi already remapped it to open the flies quicker for more low end power.

Here is some pics of the dyno showing the difference.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/749/Motorcycle-Photo-Slide-Show/2008-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX-14-vs-Suzuki-Hayabusa.aspx

Not came across anyone who has removed flies on an '08 bike yet.

I hear they are much better, but they still restrict more in the lower gears than higher ones.

Most dyno operators use 4th gear for big bikes so any dyno comparison is in 4th, here the '08 bike is a lot better than an '07 and not too far behind an '07 without flies.

I suspect an '08 bike would still get a fair benefit from fly removal in the lower gears, although nowhere near as much as the '06 or '07 models do. More of an improvement as opposed to a transformation.

I am hoping to get a demo on an '09 model when spring arrives so I can see for myself.

I re-read your post and went for a ride yesterday to try the low end grunt theory. Mine is and 06 with the flies removed. I have a PC with a off the shelf map for fly removed and stock exhaust. The stock head pipe will return the best low end torque you are seeking. Anyway I tried pulling from 2K rpm in 2nd 3rd and 4th but felt the bike felt lugged and not good. Lugging an engine with this high compression and pump gas is not real good for the bearings I believe. This engine loves to be at 3k or above. First gear 3k and above it rockets here at sea level can't use full throttle until high rpms. Shifting between 3.5k and 5k it still goes like mad. A lot of times I end up using 3rd gear for a full power pass in rural settings for multiple cars as shifting isn't necessary will take you up to 120 mph plus, usually good enough. I like to rev the hell out of the engine. Would buy a v twin if I just wanted low end torque.

I'd agree with the above post.

It pulls strongly off idle in 1st, but in higher gears best to have about 2.5k - 3k dialled in to stop it labouring too much.

I remember with the flies in I had to rev it to about 5.5k to get a clean pull away two-up, you can now feed the clutch out with just over 2k showing and get a good clean drive, 3k provides enough to see of most cars from the lights.

kawnow, I agree with yout sentiments completely.

Would buy a v twin if I just wanted low end torque

I've tried v-twins, for this very reason and they don't have the punch at higher rpm. I've tried Ducatis finest 999S and was glad to get back on my old R1! $40,000 Ducati !!! worth less (on the road) than my ol'girl. No Doubt, the Duc belongs on a track and should never be near suburbia. But I'd love to challenge a Ducati with my R1 on a track. I actually plan to convert the R1 to a track day bike once the ZX is set up

That's another thread for another forum, sorry for the rant.

I've also tried that 2-3000rpm in 2nd, 3rd and 4th and yes it feels terrible, the engine just groans in protest. That's not how I ride it.

But if you get the chance then try this; ride a stock 08 or 09, test it in 1st gear from a standing start. Go play in traffic for a bit (without being a hoon :) lots of stop/start work. Be gentle on the throttle, like you have you Nanna on the back (The favorite Nanna, not the nasty one!) Then repeat the test on yours and let us know what you observe. This is a comparison that I'd love to do but I don't have access to any other 14 owners here that I can compare notes with. I'd love to hear what you find, not just in terms of snap off the line, but also in terms of the smoothness, responsiveness, sophistication etc.

I once rode an 07 at a shop with slipons but no PC and it ran like crap down low (rough, like the A/F was wrong) but it went like a cut snake up high. This would be unpleasant to ride around town. I went home on the ol'R1 thinking Oh yeah, this is better, smooth and strong off the line and plenty of poke when provoked.

Once rolling, I never get below 3000rpm. I was trained by an ace mechanic 20 years ago that this was bad for engines. Bearings suffer the most, mostly due to insufficient oil pressure. I always find that bike engines 'like' to be above 3000 anyway.

Thanks Rasher.
getting past 5.5k to get a clean getaway on an 06 or 07 would get you past the subs. On mine you need more than 3 or 3.5 which is a lot of rpm for such a strong bike. a bit like all or nothing. hard to make a smooth but brisk getaway
(my shortest post yet :)

Look into getting an 06-07 stock head pipe comes with no cats in it. Remove flies and you should have it.

I have 3 sets of pipes and headers. Swapped them all around sorta. Save your money if you want. I cannot feel the cat or no cat at that header. Look at that header [past the collector] is larger than the narrower non-cat. Plus did someone say the inner pipe is a touch larger internally? I measured externally but not accurate. We are talking thick like .002" about wider internally? That is larger but say that is the late model header.

Why shrink down if you know they changed the header to increase the increase.

I can't get Coolanol at the moment, no stock within reach for a month. Does anyone have experience with the Motul product MoCool? It claims to reduce engine temps by 15degC (30degF), inhibit corrosion and cavitation. It does not contain any antifreeze. Mind you the closest I get to being cold is wearing a long sleeve shirt in winter with my shorts and thongs (that's "flip flops" for the northerners, not the other kind <eeww>)

I have an '06 and still have the flies in. It keeps the bike a lot more civil when you are jsut passing through town/village. I did change the timing rotor to advance 4deg and that made a large difference to 1st gear acceleration.

A little side bonus to the timing advance is that the bike will run a little cooler.

If you are looking for more punch down low, and every where else upto 11000rpm's try changing sprockets get a larger rear or a smaller front. This gives the biggest improvement for the cheapest price.

Russty can you get Engine Ice?? it does the samething as Coolanol or Mocool except it also works like antifreeze down to -26 deg. F

I didn't try for engine ice. The lowest temp I'm likely to need is about +40degF!

Here is a little link that explains just how much more "grunt" the flies out mod. gives.

look at the rating at 2750 rpm. Its 10hp/26nm over the stock bike.
That is approx 25% over the stock performance, no wonder the stock one feels like 600ccm

At 5500rpm the difference is 22rwhp/29nm
At 6750rpm 26rwhp
At 8200 24rwhp
At 10000 23rwhp

Max power with flies in: 164,8rwhp
Max power with flies out: 182,89rwhp
Difference:18hp at max performance.

The flies out mod must be folowed up with blocking of the kleen valve.
The bike must be fitted with a PC3 and mapped according to the changes made.

I cant se any reason to keep the flies in.

* Last updated by: voodoodoo on 2/28/2009 @ 2:26 AM *