Hi guy

Engine runs erratically and has a "hole" when accelerating between 2000 and 3000 rpm.
However, when I put the bike off for two weeks, the problem disappears - it is like a newborn. After two days of driving, the problem starts to return gradually and it gets worse with time. Momentarily corrects engine burnout to 10000rpm. It behaves like this from the moment of purchase. Kawasaki service is helpless.
Bike is 2018 europe - euro4 - I wonder if it could be caused by a cat?
Will akropovic solve the problem? Is it enough to gut the cat?
Or maybe you have any other idea?

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I wonder if it could be caused by a cat?

Doubt it. The cat is not clogged, nor will it cause a blockage as in, the honeycomb is too narrow? No. Hot air moves faster in the cat so it's not a flow problem.

Will akropovic solve the problem?

No. It's more of the processor exporting a bad signal... maybe. I don't know for sure.

Is it enough to gut the cat?

No. as stated, lots of holes not to stop the flow plus the heat factor.

What I'd do is disconnect the 02 sensor at the connector... ride it around and see if it clears up. If it does, then it's the 02 without having a code. Say it wasn't the 02 and is still doing it. Reconnect the 02 and let the code remain until it goes off after a few rides it will clear on its own.

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Hub, to make us understand, when the engine works badly, it does it from the start, even when cold.
The O2 sensor is not working on a cold engine - do you think it changes the map in the ECU?
but before I disconnect the O2 sensor I will check it with a meter. Is the sensor standard 0-1V?

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You purchased the bike brand new?

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Is the sensor standard 0-1V?

I believe you are right on the 02 spec. The thing is, sometimes a crank sensor [other bikes] is within spec but won't start the bike. Getting back to the crank sensor [other bikes], it took 15 minutes of heat cycling time before another sensor stopped the engine... then it cooled off, started back up, but when it was at running heat temp again, it stopped the engine. Checking spec is a waste of time IMO, seeing that crank sensor act in a few ways. I think I might place most sensors in this position of diagnosis. In other words, throw parts at it.

... when the engine works badly, it does it from the start, even when cold.

Again, the 02 runs that 0.1v to 9.0v with choke in the loop. It's mechanical(sub works the choke when cold), and the 02 is monitoring the fuel trim at idle I believe.

The O2 sensor is not working on a cold engine - do you think it changes the map in the ECU?

Well, it could change the cold start map and flip over to the next running map, I'm not sure how that works. My way of looking at it is the temp change inputs that adjust the fuel trim, not necessarily a map per say. Yes, map wise there is that intersect of a number at said rpm, but that works against the input signals and math's to said fuel trim as per temp(s)/rpm. So that is more what I am going by. Something heat related without coding.

And say like here in the USA, there is a 31000k emissions window, meaning, the factory is on the hook to keep the emissions at said spec for that 'after warranty' is over with.

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/6/2020 @ 8:25 AM *

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Nastynotch

You purchased the bike brand new?

Yes in 2018y

Hub
I understand that you mean that the O2 sensor is working but incorrectly and therefore the ECU does not see an error, but because of incorrect data, it incorrectly controls the fuel.

Again, the 02 runs that 0.1v to 9.0v with choke in the loop. It's mechanical(sub works the choke when cold), and the 02 is monitoring the fuel trim at idle I believe

Since 2007, he has not worked on gasoline engines, but the last O2 I remember were 0-1V (0.1-0.9) and 0-5V (0.1-4.9). Did you make a mistake when you said "0.1-9.0V"?
From what I remember, if the lambda probe reaches the full parameters 0.1-0.9 (in the case of sensor1V), it is 100% OK, if not, there is a suspicion that it may falsify (but not necessarily. ECUs from those years saw the passage through the 0.4V point as a change in rich / lean mixture. Hope nothing has changed
Hence my question about the O2 operating voltage.

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I understand that you mean that the O2 sensor is working but incorrectly and therefore the ECU does not see an error, but because of incorrect data, it incorrectly controls the fuel.

That is correct. Remember, that's my guess and I might be wrong vs. the 02 is in spec so I don't see it code, nor is it the problem. Code is pretty dynamic and fascinating IMO.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-test-oxygen-sensor-mandy-concepcion

Yes, I didn't catch my decimal point to read under 1 volt on the high side.

See if this theory makes sense. Analog means many and digital means one or single. So if we take the 02 as the example of analog, the oxygen changes between accelerating/WOT/cruise/cold start. That gives us a lot of different oxygen samples. The ECU recognizes analog input so there is no code set when it is changing all the time.

If say the connector of the 02 was disconnected, it would read only one reading all the time. And this will be one single digit that will code, which signals the 02 has failed in some many ways. Say a short to the 02 sensor happened. It codes because the signal is one constant input. After so much time with the same continuous signal, the code comes on. Or say the voltage is below .01v or over 1.0 volts, it's out of range and this too will code. Kind of see how a code occurs?

But when you say it runs fine and then goes off tune, it seem to me like an electrical glitch, not a physical glitch, like a dirty air cleaner, or a bad set of plugs or one plug say. So if we talk about E, then the theory says; 'Magnetism: you cannot separate heat from the chemical reaction'.

So chemically speaking; the 02 is taking chemical samples, and the E part of it; are those wires of the 02. Meaning, one wire heats up the coil so the reading starts faster rather than exhaust heating up; the wire up to the ECU; and the ground wire to complete the circuit. Therefore, I can't chase the physical, being it sounds more like 'mag-heat-chemRe'... Make sense?

I doubt the 02 is the problem just because of the code not being present. If you want to throw parts at it, I'd change the air cleaner if it is over 4660k. That's pulling it by half the life of that filter. 7456k is the replacement interval. Plugs are changed at 4660k. So if you are over that, change them out, you have nothing to lose.

These bikes hardly have problems. Most of the time it will take a plug or a filter change to clean up the tune. If you could find someone with a 2016 or above, swap out the ECU's and see if that cleans it up. You said it runs fine when cold. I just thought of the black box. That means it starts out sort of cold, and warms up after awhile. Could be the ECU 'when warm'?

Back in the day here, there was someone having a 2-3k rpm 'driveability' problem. I forgot what/how much he went thru figuring it out? It ended up being the ECU. I got a hold of it and wanted to know what a black box glitch felt like? It was very annoying to say the least.

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Kinda seems like a dirty fuel filter, sits for a while and its not that bad but after driving again it acts up.... crap in the bottom of the tank slowly clogs up the filter??

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Maybe I wrote something wrong ...
Let me start over again

When I bought a new bike in 2018, it worked beautifully. The first symptoms appeared after about 500-600 km - two three days of driving. At the first inspection at the Kawasaki service (1000km) I reported problems. Kawasaki service did nothing - they didn't see the mouth. The problem was growing and I reported the trouble again at the 6000km inspection. Kawasaki service response - same - all OK. After 12000 km, I did the service myself - I don't want to bother with the Kawasaki service anymore.
However, I gained a little bit of experience in the meantime.
And I can see that the symptoms decrease when I spin the engine> 10000rpm (at least twice), when I put the bike off for two weeks (one week does not help) the faults disappear definitively, and after two days of driving the symptoms gradually return.

The symptoms are as follows:
After starting (warm / cold - it does not matter), the work is uneven at idle speed - but it does not "float" up / down, but sounds like a wrong mixture. While driving, it happens that the idle speed is fairly even, but not ideal, and sometimes they are also uneven.
Hole when accelerating between 2000-3000rpm - you do not feel at higher revs. The hole even appears around 1200rpm so large that it shuts down the engine when it starts moving. I checked the synchronization of the throttles - it was perfect - nothing to do, I replaced the spark plugs.
without load, a jerk of the throttle from slow revolutions is positive - it does not tarak, smoothly increases the rotational speed. I did not feel the power drop either - it achieves 300KM, stands up from the throttle on the rear wheel. I know that some flagship models are not produced due to the E4 exhaust gas standard, Did they get the E4 norm "by force" and hence these symptoms that's why I thought cat first. I wonder why everything is back to normal after two weeks?
I'll check the O2 over the weekend.

Hub now question:

Should the O2 be disconnected when the engine is not working properly, drive until it improves?
After what time to acknowledge that it did not help?
Or
Is it better to put the bike off for 2 weeks, when everything works like new, then disconnect the O2 and check if it breaks?

* Last updated by: ginccs on 10/7/2020 @ 10:12 AM *

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Should the O2 be disconnected when the engine is not working properly, drive until it improves?

Yes. The test is to remove a fuel metering device and default to the backup coded mapping. This is going to see if it is fuel related, not electrical related. You want to see if this eliminates the 2-3000 rpm hole.

After what time to acknowledge that it did not help?

It will be immediately. It either cleaned up or is still there. When you ride it disconnected, zip-tie the 02 harness so it does not drop on the hot exhaust and melt harness. And remember the reconnect will not shut the code off until many key turns being counted. So just ride it with the code. The 02 was back in play once you reconnect the 02 back up again. It takes awhile to turn the code off riding wise. The dealer can clear it with the factory equipment required by the factory, but it will cost you.

I rode around without the 02 connected just playing around. I reconnected and knew the system was code free, and just let the code reset itself. Just like my truck needed an 02 replaced, it was in a 'learn' which took awhile to pass emissions. Once that code cleared on the dash, I took it back and it passed inspection. First gen 14's codes took literally seconds to clear.

Is it better to put the bike off for 2 weeks, when everything works like new, then disconnect the O2 and check if it breaks?

You could try that. I'm about to call your bike, "Entropy"

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And I can see that the symptoms decrease when I spin the engine

Are we saying that the rev up to 10k clears the problem and rides normally after that high an rpm? And it comes back to the problem in a few miles doing that or what?

... when I put the bike off for two weeks (one week does not help)

What would cause that to run like new adding one more week? Capacitor draining? If I think 'off the wall' like I do:
1. If the hole was in progress, I'd pull over, have the kill off, cycle the key on and off as fast as I could turn it on, I'd turn it off... to drain the capacitors more to ground. Maybe like 6 times at the least. Then see if that did anything like sitting for 2 weeks and all cleared up. Then you'd know it is the ECU.
2. Ideally, I'd have the toolbox out of the way, pull the ECU, disconnect the connector, know my ground pins, know my hot pin, ground my hot pin to the frame, then stab my grounds to ground; until the meter no longer swung the analog needle, or 0'd out the digital numbers no longer spiking. That's like saying 2 weeks have gone by and did it run like new? This way you physically drained the capacitors rather than the key turns.

... the faults disappear definitively, and after two days of driving the symptoms gradually return.

What sounds like a learning ECU, I kind of doubt it. I could be wrong, but some of the triumph models have a relay at the hot side of the battery. The relay is keeping the ECU live with key off. Once the 'learn' is done in so many minutes, the relay is shut off and the ECU is caught up with the processing.

The only way to know if it has a relay, is to look up the kawi parts page and find the battery. Does it show a relay by the battery? I doubt it, but for the hole to come back, it's more a processing problem. Dealer wise, it be nice to find a used 2016 or newer sitting on the floor and swap out ECU's.

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Are we saying that the rev up to 10k clears the problem and rides normally after that high an rpm? And it comes back to the problem in a few miles doing that or what?

yes, but not 100%. There is a big improvement especially in idle. The hole is also getting smaller, but it is still felt.
i do it like this:
I'm coming home from a ride. 2km before the end I stop at the crossroads, I hear that the engine work is not equal,
to the next intersection 1-2-3 geer to 11krpm, after stopping it still works badly, further home leisurely to 5krpm.
After 1.5 km near the house, the engine works almost OK.
I described it so precisely because it is not enough to exceed 10krpm and already approx.
After this operation in the evening, sometimes in the morning it works evenly and sometimes it doesn't.
I got used to these anomalies, but recently I haven't been driving for two weeks. After that time I got on the horse, I was charmed, how smoothly the beauty can accelerate from the bottom and how beautiful it works from the moment of starting a cold engine to warming up. Unfortunately, on the second day the hole became noticeable, and on the third day the symptoms fully returned.

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2. Ideally, I'd have the toolbox out of the way, pull the ECU, disconnect the connector, know my ground pins, know my hot pin, ground my hot pin to the frame, then stab my grounds to ground

after disconnecting the battery, connect the + - battery terminals with each other, And turn on the key.
Is it the same effect? - Is the idea good?

Back to O2 - I wonder - Working O2 (theoretically) badly affects the map of the injector opening in the ECU. These changes are stored in the ECU - Because on the second, third day, it is already working badly since the start of the cold engine, Suction ECU (cold) not responding to O2. How will I disconnect O2 then, will it not start using the wrong map, previously falsified by the O2 sensor? Only without O2?

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after disconnecting the battery, connect the + - battery terminals with each other, And turn on the key.
Is it the same effect? - Is the idea good?

Why didn't I think of that? Yes. Rather, remove the posi and all wires off the (+) side totally off the battery. You can keep the ground on the battery and frame... it does nothing as you can see. Ground the posi cable and hold it there, then cycle the key a few times(6).

Back to O2 - I wonder - Working O2 (theoretically) badly affects the map of the injector opening in the ECU.

Kind of yes, kind of no. If say it rides fine for a few days and then acts up, were you riding it mildly for those few days? Or were you hitting those short bursts of high rpm [like me every time you're on the bike], and then it started to act up?

These changes are stored in the ECU

The way I understand it is; the processing is almost at the speed of light, and that is why this one hard part called an integrated chip (IC) can dump the capacitors thousands of times a second, can detect the most minute slowing down in speed of the front wheel, where the ignition is retarded, the sub is closing, and the injector leans out, the wheel comes down and you probably didn't notice it. The processing works that quick. So when the IC grounds, it empties the capacitors, is waiting for the next rpm speed [making E] at the crank sensor, that pulse up the wire is the next electrical value the processor can read. So the change is thousands of times a second in between those spark advances, and injector demands.

Because on the second, third day, it is already working badly since the start of the cold engine

That's the clinker about this one:
1. Can't be the hard parts or they'd code.
2. Can't be the plugs or element.
3. Can't be the ECU.
4. Can't be the mufflers/cat... because it takes awhile for it to appear so no codes to point to, no plugs, pipes, etc., see list above.

Suction ECU (cold) not responding to O2. How will I disconnect O2 then, will it not start using the wrong map, previously falsified by the O2 sensor? Only without O2?

I believe the 02 is sending input upon key turned on. Get it? All parameters are cold, so of course it is going run rich at startup. The 02 reads the heat (chemical reaction) and shuts off the rich/choke as the temps change.

The gray 02 connector is near the #4 exhaust header. You might have room to reach around the lower fairing and see it from there at the front? That will tell you how much side cover to take off, if you can't disconnect from there at the front. Look down on the right side of the lower headers enter the collector. You cand see the 02 screwed in that collector area. follow the harness up or look at the front of the fairing, you'll see the intersect. Disconnect and do not let the wire drop on the pipe.

The bike starts with a backup map. It's not necessarily a wrong map, it's more a 'redundant' map, a failsafe, a limp map, a backup map, a check engine light map, a 'Huston we have a problem' map. Well, we shall know soon enough if it falsifies the input to the ECU. Without the 02, it's called open loop. With an 02 system, it's closed loop.

Do you like to rev up the bike hard when you ride it? Well over a ton when no one is looking? Go off to an abandon road, do burnouts? Plan old, beat shit out of the bike like I do? And then the hole begins? I've been there, done that with my 02 emission 2017 14. Are we talking the same wrist action?

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Kinda seems like a dirty fuel filter, sits for a while and its not that bad but after driving again it acts up.... crap in the bottom of the tank slowly clogs up the filter??

+1 on this...
would suspect rust chips & rusty dust from the fuel tank, clogging the fuel filter... had a similar issue, changing the fuel pump & filter assy solved the problem
is the dealership, where you bought the bike from, close to the sea... could be the salt in the air corroding the fuel tank when petrol is not full?

I had similar but not exact issues with my bike. I removed the secondary throttle plates and the problem went away and never returned. Probably not your problem but it’s a variable that you can eliminate.

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Bike is left alone for 2 weeks, runs like new when taken out. Explain to me how a clogged fuel filter can run perfect. Does the pump suck up the rust and it reclogs up? Full pump blade flying to produce 44psi. Like saying the compression comes back after sitting for 2 weeks, then signs off after a few days?

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islandninja

would suspect rust chips & rusty dust from the fuel tank, clogging the fuel filter... had a similar issue, changing the fuel pump & filter assy solved the problem

I wanted to write back to you exactly the same as Hub, but he did it first.

Bike is left alone for 2 weeks, runs like new when taken out. Explain to me how a clogged fuel filter can run perfect. Does the pump suck up the rust and it reclogs up? Full pump blade flying to produce 44psi. Like saying the compression comes back after sitting for 2 weeks, then signs off after a few days?

is the dealership, where you bought the bike from, close to the sea... could be the salt in the air corroding the fuel tank when petrol is not full?

However, I will answer the rest of your question, because I understand you want to help. Please read carefully from the beginning, because the wrong help only causes unnecessary work
Motorcycles from the factory in Japan travel by ship to the central warehouse in the Netherlands and then by truck on roads all over Europe. If he was not harmed by a ship trip across the ocean and a stay in the Netherlands, It certainly did not hurt the bike at the seller, it stayed there for one day. It came on my special order - this model is not popular in Poland.
The fuel tank is clean inside, and there are no signs of rust. Besides, above I mentioned that: NO PROBLEMS WITH 300 km / h POWER ACHIEVED WITHOUT PROBLEM - This rather rules out suply issues. All problems are below 4000rpm.

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Hub

Do you like to rev up the bike hard when you ride it? Well over a ton when no one is looking? Go off to an abandon road, do burnouts? Plan old, beat shit out of the bike like I do? And then the hole begins? I've been there, done that with my 02 emission 2017 14. Are we talking the same wrist action?

I don't understand - language barrier. Please write a little easier / more precise
Did you mean a sharp race off the beaten track?

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I meant something like this:

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Usually I drive at 5-7krpm, which generates very frequent gear changes, but I use the clutch for this - traditionally. I prefer deep turns rather than high rpm. Of course, fast driving is no stranger to me.
In the past, I have consumed several sets of sliders - I like it to this day, but with age one becomes humble.

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Is there anyway to video the normal running and video the bad running so we can hear the engine go thru those rpms at 5-7k rpm? I'm pretty much at a loss without riding it or hearing it.

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However, I will answer the rest of your question, because I understand you want to help

thanks Ginccs for this additional info...
zx14's are usually slow selling items sitting in dealers showrooms, but clearly it was not the case for your bike...

just to mention it, had once an issue with a steel jerrican i was using for storing petrol for the bike
the jerrican looked good from outside, but produced the crap that clogged my fuel filter...

Hub, my apologies for sounding a bit naive at times, when trying to help...
have had two new zx14's, both bikes impressed me with their superior engineering and the production quality control... so far the only issues i had were due either to human errors (me) or environmental factors (corrosion, mices, etc...)

Island, there are no apologies when diagnosing. It's all hit and miss. Makes you think applying the variable is all.

gin, we are going to see if any codes are saved, which I doubt. A code would be a 'hard-set' for a better word, and would blink the dash at certain areas, like the skid, water, fuel, ABS kind of fuel/water bars blinking, or the yellow light held [hard] steady for the ABS, etc. So really, all you might see is the language mode.

So key on only, no start, then hold down 'Sel' on the left switch. Just keep holding it down till either a code pops up, or the language menu pops up on the dash. If no current codes are shown hard, or saved, we are at a dead end.

Trouble tree section of the manual shows nothing that stands out but the usual low end driveability problem like a fuel pump or ECU problem. With an ECU swap, this would start the bike like new and never go into that hole on acceleration.

Again, this is off the wall chasing a no code problem, where I would disconnect the stepper motor/actuator, wire open the sub shaft, disconnect the sub sensor, let the bike code, but you'd stop having the subs acting like a 2006 14 with a slow sub opening at low speeds. I doubt they brought that back on the 2018. Mine does not hole, if we are seeing some sort of drop in a hole at 2-3,000 rpm, then takes off like a rocket.

The next question is... are we in a hole at the 2-3,000 rpm window and then it cleans up and takes off normally to the 5-7,000 range?

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Can't be a hole after two weeks sitting. Me bad.

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