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Thread: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"

Created on: 10/05/20 02:38 PM

Replies: 37

ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/12/20 9:29 AM

I can't have fun with the bike, because when it started raining on Friday, it's raining until today.
However, I will start by checking the O2 parameters - what are the differences in O2 between a well-running and a poorly running engine. After this test, a lot will be known (in my opinion).

The next question is... are we in a hole at the 2-3,000 rpm window and then it cleans up and takes off normally to the 5-7,000 range?

In Polish parlance of mechanicsmans, a phrase "Hole in the gas" - It indicates engine behavior similar to turbo-hole - I don't know how it will be in English. You open the throttle rapidly - the engine chokes first ("ponders"), then it spins.
My bike is similar but ...
When you jerk or slowly the throttle while stationary, the reaction is right - there is no hole.
When you drive 1st or 2nd gear (slow speed) you slowly open the throttle (don't jerk) turnover is increasing, and suddenly around 2300rpm loses power,(not ponders)he reacts inappropriately,taraks, when it exceeds around 2800rpm the problem disappears - turnover increases to 12,000, constans power approx.
Tarakes - it sounds as if the fuel is running out, as if he is losing cylinders.
Ponders - It's no reaction, no change
when you repeat the situation, when you repeat the situation but quickly open the throttle - then you don't feel that hole, KTRC off and black marks on the road, front wheel up.
At the same time, it does not work well at idle speed. Sometimes when I start drive move gently, it can turn off - and sometimes it's ok.
I tried to explain it so visually.

How to check the lambda probe, I will let you know.


* Last updated by: ginccs on 10/12/2020 @ 9:37 AM *



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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Nastynotch


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Location: Lumberton, TX

Joined: 02/21/14

Posts: 875

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/12/20 12:33 PM

Remove the secondary throttle plates.



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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/12/20 4:28 PM

Nastynotch

Remove the secondary throttle plates.

But it won't improve idle speed



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/12/20 4:32 PM

And does any of the gentelmens have 100% original and complete exhaust and don't have my problems?
2018y


* Last updated by: ginccs on 10/12/2020 @ 4:33 PM *



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12360

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/13/20 2:04 PM

Do not remove sub plates. The idle is automatic and that kind of air change is too iffy, too expensive to be the first one to try.

I have the complete stock exhaust and no doubt they are the same part numbers. The subs open as if there were none, no matter the throttle opening, gear to rpm combo, etc.

I just remembered 2 weeks sitting and no driveability problem. WOT popped in my head were the French ticklers between the throttle bodies and head ports. They down-sleeved the intakes for the gentlemen's agreement about the 300km limit in the euro countries... or was it just France?

You got a strange one, gin. It's finding that 20/20 hindsight somewhere down the road.



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Hub


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Posts: 12360

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/13/20 2:07 PM

Oh shit??!!!

What mode are you in? Try F-1



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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/13/20 2:10 PM

Boys, I found on the web the muvis.
The guy boasts about the trunks, but in the fourth minute he starts the engine and ... works as bad as mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQSytuQZ-Is

This is what I mean by bad idle speed, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem.
WILL IT HELP FOR THESE SYMPTOMS, REMOVAL OF THE CAT??



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/13/20 2:15 PM

I tried F-1 F-off and L-1 - same



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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Hub


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Posts: 12360

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/14/20 9:59 AM

Cat removal won't help. Between the reheating of the air moving faster out of that honeycomb environment, it's not worth pulling it out. No difference in flow would change things, meaning, always ask yourself... 'when it sits long it runs perfect'. So you can't throw the cat in as a variable for a fix or pinpoint the problem... think.



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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/14/20 2:03 PM

we established that it works well after a standstill because the ECU memory is discharged and starts learning from the beginning - did I understand correctly?
If 1 - 2 days work approx, I think so...
Cat e4 restricts the flow inherently. O2 placed before cat it has rich exhaust fumes in its surroundings.
Thus it can lean the fuel mixture too much - I've heard something like that before
The ECU remembers it - "learns"
Could this be a schematic of the problem?
I know these E4 cats are causing the engineers problems Akrapovic even made it possible to remove the cats by hand.
What do you think, Hub?
Hub, did you listen to what I pasted above from youtube?
In my opinion, this engine works badly (it's not mine) but not everyone is bothered by it as I can see.
Do you have equal idle speed on your stock exhaust?



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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Hub


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Posts: 12360

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/15/20 1:29 AM

we established that it works well after a standstill because the ECU memory is discharged and starts learning from the beginning - did I understand correctly?

Yes and no. We do not have a learn per say... no relay in parallel with the ECU. Like a laptop or a computer tower, it does not learn when you turn the tower off. It just holds RAM like you set the radio in a car. Key back on, so is the saved station.

Maybe if we say: When I turn my computer off for the night, I have a lot of browsers open I did not see yet. If I mouse the tower closed, the screen turns off, the tower still makes noise processing, and then turns off by itself. When I turn the computer on the next day, all my browsers are gone. That extra processing wiped the RAM [my browsers], and that is the same as saying I turned the key off the bike, the RAM is saved. Meaning, the last cylinder fired, the km reading at the dash say. Was it really a learn? If I turn it off on the 'hard' or pull the plug meaning, my browsers are saved next time I turn it back on. See how both ways would work if I saved the 2 day ECU setting with a 'hard', not key off? That means I take my seat off, fuse box says; ECU fuse here... keep engine running, pull fuse. This should turn the bike off. Turn the key off, install the fuse. Did it spark? That's probably the clock at the fuse. And if you find the hot to the ECU, you see if that is hot with key off.

Or, you can have the key off, see if the ECU pin is hot; walk away for over 20 minutes, walk back and is the pin still hot or off?
Pin with key immediately turned off and stays lit then goes off in less than a half hour? It was in learn. If it stays lit which I doubt, it keeps the clock hot. Make sense about the spike of the fuse going back in?

Take for example a modern car with learn. It learns your seat position when someone else moves the seat. You accelerate, the transmission is sending in how you work that throttle pedal. It learns your shift quality, meaning, you either leave in a soft move away from the light, or you step on the pedal hard and it knows when to shift in a smoother way. It learns your pedal action and adjusts for that better shift quality.

I looked for a relay because the triumph uses one. Since I can't say for sure about this ECU, when I pulled a connector off to see what it would do, the first two gens would clear the code within seconds. With me disconnecting the 02 and reconnecting, it went away may rides later. Was it learning without a relay? My guess says no. My vehicle had the 02 fail, and with the new one installed, it took many drives to clear it off the dash. That's why the yes [grounds some of the capacitors] and no [it's not a full on learn ECU] to your question.

If 1 - 2 days work approx, I think so...

Then it points to the ECU. Even though it shows no codes at the sensors, nor the ECU, the ECU is the processor. There is a term that says, 'junk in is junk out' and that says the ECU is not the problem... 2 days in. It heated up so... Stumped from here.

Cat e4 restricts the flow inherently.

Only if the honeycombs are carbon clogged and closes the opening. I gotcha again. You didn't think 'runs two days fine', where you can't call the cat black. Only your eyes knows for sure, then simply pull a muffler and the cooler side is the cat you are looking at. You read it as; silver dull; or tan clean; or black soot? Black soot says you are getting close. 2 day window says tan clean, so why look. Silver dull is a low km/hours riding.

O2 placed before cat it has rich exhaust fumes in its surroundings.

The bike in my state has to run leaner and uses a special ECU for this model. With PAIR [adds fresh air into the exhaust port], this shows the AFR meter set at 16 AFR before it enters the cat. I turn the PAIR off, it runs 14.3 AFR. Rich exhaust fumes says back to looking at the cat. At this point it's no parts... if you watch how you slide the exhaust gasket back in, it cost nothing to look.

Thus it can lean the fuel mixture too much - I've heard something like that before

You have the world's fastest production bike and that fuel mixture is part of that power. Gotcha again. Lean/rich, it's back to the WFPB after 2 days sitting, remember? Not it.

The ECU remembers it - "learns"
Could this be a schematic of the problem?

I'd say more heat related to the hard parts inside rather than it can learn. After 2 days, where is the learn if it's reset to perfect again?

I know these E4 cats are causing the engineers problems Akrapovic even made it possible to remove the cats by hand.

The latest corvette is emission packed and still is faster than last year's model. The engineers override those problems, right? So does the factory or they can't call this the WFPB.

... did you listen to what I pasted above from youtube?
In my opinion, this engine works badly (it's not mine) but not everyone is bothered by it as I can see.
Do you have equal idle speed on your stock exhaust?

That bike matches mine idle and all. Here is how it works in the science of it. Big clumps of gas are mixed in the air. That cold air in the engine is going condense the mist some, thus the clumps of gas [flame front] trying to reach the other clump. So you first hear that stumble on a cold engine startup and idle. But once the heat warms the metal, the air expands, so do the clumps and back to more of a mist. Now each gas molecule has a shorter way to fire off the next molecule, thus a smoother idle when warm.



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ginccs


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Location: Krakow Poland

Joined: 02/27/20

Posts: 40

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/15/20 3:40 AM

That bike matches mine idle and all. Here is how it works in the science of it. Big clumps of gas are mixed in the air. That cold air in the engine is going condense the mist some, thus the clumps of gas [flame front] trying to reach the other clump. So you first hear that stumble on a cold engine startup and idle. But once the heat warms the metal, the air expands, so do the clumps and back to more of a mist. Now each gas molecule has a shorter way to fire off the next molecule, thus a smoother idle when warm.

Is my bike, after 2 weeks of downtime, the laws of physics did not work for 2 days? It works on slow medium and high like a watch from cold to warm?

In cars with the OBDII system, the ECU "learns" the composition of the fuel mixture. As a result of improper operation, O2 can shift the injection map so much that the engine stops working. It remembers these data and the car stops driving. The rescue is ECU reprogramming at an authorized service point. I do not know if it would be repaired if it was left untouched for 2 weeks or a month, because nobody waited so long.
I don't know if it's the same with motorcycles.
E4 is a problem in motorcycles, many models are not sold in Europe because of the exhaust gas standard
- that's what the bike dealer say
But enough theory.
It has to stop raining and I'll get to work.
Maybe he will use an O2 emulator?



I am from Poland and my English may be poor - sorry

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 12360

RE: uneven work at idle speed, "hole in acceleration"
10/15/20 9:13 AM

Bottom line is, you have no codes, so it's time to throw parts at it like an ECU swap. What is the change? Heat. Remember, 'Magnetism ~ you cannot separate heat from the chemical reaction'. My wild guess is you have the hard parts heating up and one of those [resistor-capacitor] is throwing off the calc.



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