Weird, last thing I did before putting the bike away was a top speed run. WOT 3,4,5,6 gears. No slippage there. Then I was doing low power wheelies, no clutch but full decel to hard accelleration WOT in 1st gear. No slippage there either.

Let it ride. Mine is sunk in deeper but not by much. The only concern I have is the friction's gap at the tangs. Mine are tighter or say, the tang bang back and forth shrunk the tang. I have less gap is about all the difference is. Your walk back into the channels or the forks, or finger forks of the clutch outer: still has as much gap as mine.

So to come around to my answer might be twofold. (1) You couldn't have smoked the clutch before all those blips before bedtime. (2) You are using syn and did not change the oil but sent it to bed soaking wet into the stall. Are we draining a few tank fulls to see if it clears up?

How about we just change the oil to non-syn and see what happens first? This will pump that oil into the clutch and wash off the syn say.

ok. let's get things turned the same way....

I see the tine. Looks like the hook at the end rides above the shiny disk below.....and the hook pulls the less shiny disk in toward the center of the motor when you pull the clutch lever. So my LESS shiny disk is the pressure plate?

forgive me fellas but I don't see a whole lot of difference.

Prsy thee good hagrid, what dost thine eye glean that escapest me?

Don't use the clutch for upshifts ever again.

Maybe blend just a hair on the 1-2 shift if your trying to be as smooth as possible...

... but it absolutely is not required for any of the other cog swaps.

How about we just change the oil to non-syn and see what happens first? This will pump that oil into the clutch and wash off the syn say.

Still seem to recall the clutch was be slipping late last Fall before storage.

I think it's toast. how the heck else can I be the only one with a slipping clutch from using Rotella?

I guess it's worth a try to change the oil to dino and put on a new filter.

might be a good time to run it a few hundred miles and let it soak in dino oil a few weeks while I do the valve clearance check again.

if it still slips after the dino bath, I tear down the clutch and measure the plates. If they are in spec, it has to be the synthetic oil. What to do then, IDK? Run it with dino for the whole year and hope it clears up or else just replace it.

I really don't enjoy riding the bike like this. Might as well be a cruiser, for COL.

I think he means> at high rpm one after the other.

this is depressing thinking this will be an expensive unecassary clutch change or a whole f___ing summer of riding a 14 I can't open up....and then I still don't know what I might do about it down the road.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/17/2014 @ 8:18 PM *

I'm telling you Hub... I don't use my clutch AT ALL during upshifts. Even during easy street riding. Chop the throttle to unload the trans and stab it in. Easy as pie and smooth as silk. It's not rocket science.

I believe ya . but I miss a gear occasionally even using the clutch.

what happens let's say if you do miss a gear without using the clutch? wouldn't it just pop back down to the last gear or it stick in false N? No different than missing a gear while using the clutch, right?

Mav, I hear ya. Been there, done that. I'll stick with half and half. I know where I can get away with it, others need it. Remember, you WOT for a 1000ft. So do I but then I have to downshift for some turn coming up, be it short or a long straightaway. Be my guest using that clutchopper going into some hairpin.

Rook, you would hear the engagement dogs bumping together and never really dropping in. It most likely would fall back into the previous gear.

Hub, notice I said UPSHIFTS. I don't rev match for downshifts. It's disengaged for a break down so the chassis doesn't get upset with me.

Page 9-45 (-47 for R) When you miss a shift, every A-B point takes an 'accelerated wear' hit or bend/chunk removed/burn set in.

Gear Dogs: These are the square cuts that engage ever so short into the other gear window. It's as if you are climbing straight up a wall and your fingers just have enough to grab onto.

Gear Slots: When that engine misses gear-to back wheel: you are hearing the dogs trying to enter the slots. Like a playing card with a clothespin holding the card against the bicycle spokes, that's the kind of action happening against each other.

Forks: There are two machined sides to these two tips that are at their ends. They slide the gear in or pull the gear out. So those two flat blocks wear out normally from the spinning gear it rides in and the drag pulling/pushing gear in and out. There is a round guide, ball, nipple call it at the bottom of the fork. This nipple rides in a fork's guide channel. But when you miss a shift or yank on that shift lever before its time, you can rub those tips down or burn them down and the gap of the throw does not engage the gear that far in anymore. The dog gear banging thru the windows, this can also bend the forks. This too is another short insert to engagement and when you have a combo of worn gear dogs and slots, a fork loosing that tip thickness, she begins to miss gears under load, meaning, it pops out of gear if everything went normal. And 2nd gear is notorious for being one of the first to go. With N being in that longer throw and you adding that gap, there is a gear to window timing that is hitting in the middle of the windows, not into the slots. That's why I baby that gear a lot.

Drum: So as the fork has a guide nipple or nub that tracks in the channels you see, there is a peak height the fork nub rests at. That's that A-B or B point. This is where the dogs are set inside the other gear and they lock in that position. So far, we have a dog that needs to be sharp and flat; a gear window that has to be sharp and square so they lock a flat surface over a flat surface together; the fork has to have its tips as wide as possible so they push that gear in far enough, nor have any bends where the bottom of U shows burn or scrub marks down the bottom too; the drum's peak position or that bend in the channels, this is being worn down at that peak in that channel; that too has to be round in it's channel so as to push the fork's nub at peak throw, the fork tangs at peak thickness; the dog and windows at sheer flats as short as they enter, remember. You avoid those things that gall off tip thicknesses off and round the flats away with those clanging get it over with already! Round pops out; has no holding power; rides against those misshifts that keep happening; and eventually it pops out of gear for the loss of those A-B points walking the dog out of the slots.

Drum Star & Roller: You know this as the shifter kit with the roller bearing, not the riveted washer used as the roller. This is behind the clutch basket. This is where the roller's rivet ( Elongates ) a perfectly round drilled 0holeO. This is where your rivet moves first when the foot shifter shaft begins to move. Look at that gap of a throw that was taken up. The drum is going to sit where that roller sits. It's going to sit lower or out the windows she comes. That roller bearing setup should more center the drum from the elongation happening because of the balls moving, the washer hole dragging on the rivet is eliminated pretty much.

Drive Chain: You have a driven gear and a freewheeling gear. When all is timed in, the lift of the throttle, the loss of power to the chain, she drops/lags/slows/goes out of time; when the top rung drops down. Let's slow-mo it. When I lift/shift up/chain drops/gear window times out. If my chain is too loose, it can move the windows away from each other so when the shift happens, the dog hits the center of the windows. The chain drop time did not time the slot, but took it out of time. So if you misshifts a lot like I do, with-w/out clutch pull, the chain most likely needs tightening.

When you miss a shift, some A-B points take a beating. Some wear because they move normally and normal wear occurs. But to cause rounded dogs the misshifts causes and the accelerated wear, I'll pass thanks. Load the fork tips? Pass thanks. Run a too loose a chain? Pass on that too. It's all about you controlling the levers and twist moves: Foot-Fingers-Throttle-Cranium = The Fab 4.

So if you misshifts a lot like I do, with-w/out clutch pull, the chain most likely needs tightening.

Speaking of quickshifter on my bike, I realize all this info is a mute point as far as my bike goes. I can't experiment with cutting the throttle and shifting without the clutch. Even if I do cut the throttle, the QS will cut ignition at exactly the right time unloading the engine and allowing the shift to go in. My throttle is irrelevant with shifting unless I remove the QS. I have missed clutchless shifts with the QS plenty of times. No weird noise or feeling just as long as I pull the clutch and kick it in quick. If the motor spins down before you execute the shift a second time, better know how to match speeds or then YES, you will hear an ugly noise, even if you pull the clutch.

Now back to the use of syn and clutch slippage, I'm starting to doubt that to be the cause of my problem. I use Rotella T6 and there are thousands of other owners of various wet clutch bikes who claim it is just fine. You hear the occassional querry as to whether Rotella is possibly the cause of a clutch problem that is being had but I don't hear anything conclusive showing that it is. Instead you hear a bunch of other owners saying "I've used Rotella T6 in all of my bikes for the past 30 years and never had a problem". Then the guy with the clutch problem changes to another oil and the problem does not go away. He wonders if it is his clutch springs. All the phases I'm going through. The first post says it all. Note EDITS.

http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?100192-quot-New-quot-Rotella-T6-5W-40-clutch-slips

I think my clutch simply needs to be pulled and measured. Even if they are in spec, I can change them and that will solve the problem. The clutch worked fine for almost 4 years on Rotella so a new clutch should go at least as long. Just for peace of mind, I will never store with syn again. No benefit to that at all.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/18/2014 @ 1:20 PM *

I think my clutch simply needs to be pulled and measured.

Here, pull this. NOLTT says: You and the OP should leave the oil in. Wear were you when I said... Oh, never mind. LOL... Wear was I? Oh yeah, can I get A PULL?

Dead engine:
1. Rook, you described the pressure plate dead on, so look at that machined circumference of that shinny part and use the line of the pressure plate side, not the friction side, we watch the outside line walk under the clutch outer's fork end. My pp-line sits under the canopy of the tip of that fork. I mean just under it. So my guess is we are even.

2. Set bike in 1st gear, back wheel off the ground. Left hand at the lever, right hand at the rear wheel.
a. I want to see if I can drag the wheel or it freewheels with lever pinned to the grip.
b. I want to load the wheel, slowly pull the lever in and note where the wheel breaks loose.
c. I want to pin the lever to the grip, release the lever, roll the back wheel till I feel the wheel drag?
d. I want to look for lever position doing all this. Where I break clutch or catch the load is just about in the middle throw. Where are we?

Where is your lever? Where is the wheel locking up vs lever position?

3. If that wheel freewheels effortlessly, that means a lot of wear is added up, the plates are farther away from each other, the back wheel is feeling like it's almost in N it is that easy to move back and forth: now that I feel it? We see that static test going on? I can't even break my back wheel the plates are thick/oiled/cold/won't freewheel at all =
a. No wear/no air in lines throwing a shorter throw at the push rod.
b. No plate is acting like it's warped or I'd have a locked or heavily dragging wheel to no spin at all.
c. No engine was started to warm things up to make the wheel move easier. End of cold-static-test.

Running Engine:
1. I'm going to guess if we have a warp happening cold it's going to happen warm. Back wheel is back on the ground.
a. I want to see if I have a warp going on with the pack and decipher if it's the oil or the hard parts?
b. I want to tell not about the normal clunk into 1st, but a toe under the lever (or reverse shift, no matter), I'm looking for ease of finding N without ankle damage to a tendon, calf muscle yank, it was like you took Fred Astaire lessons you are all over that pedal trying to find N.
c. I went in the house and found some horse muscle rubbing ointment, as soon as I can walk again, I'll be tearing down that pack...
d... for Damn Straight you have a clutch problem not an oil problem if N is that hard to find.

Signed,

I used both legs and N for Not happening!

Pea. Yes. Keep your trousers on. This is a borderline squid move you do not recognize the pack vs slick city slickershithat was a waste of time. I shoulda listened, butt nooooooooooooooo

= Answer?
Rook: It was so easy to find N.
Hub: Ain't that a bitch? You almost had another editorial.

Rook: Well, when I do...
Hub: ... Ah, when you do, ring up Mav you have any Q's. I've never been in one so you two are on your own. I'll sit back and watch the generic moves or move outheway LOL. Dishit here lever to pressure plate I$ my dough main. Mav passes the grade in setup so you are in good hands. "It only goes together one way."

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/19/2014 @ 8:17 AM *

Well, I just got done with a ride so the cold, dead engine test will ahave to wait. I did go out and do the step 1 and the last step you call "Running Engine."

Step 1:
I took a pic as dead nuts perpendicular to the top edge of the pressure plate as i could. That should show if the tip of the outer fork is overhanging the pp just a touch. Looks to me like the outer edge of the pp is aligned with the outer edge of the fork.

last step, Running Engine:
Engine crankcase nice and warm from ride. Shift from 1 to N easily acomplished, motor OFF.
START in N and let run to two bars.
Shift from N to 1, normal "clunk."
SHifter nudges up easily to N.
Easily shifts back to 1.
Easily shifts back to N with a firm lift of the toe (instead of just a nudge).
I couldn't get this thing to stick in 1 if tried. Never had it skip N and go to 2, ever. It will only shift from 1 to N and back exactly as it is supposed to.

I tried simulating step 2, the hand spin/clutch travel test with the wheel on the ground. Tought I might as well since I can't test it cold yet. The bike starts to creep forward with the clutch lever released about halfway. a little past half of the travel from the grip, perhaps. Definitely not less than half from the grip.

I'll retry the cold static test when the bike is cold. I presume it will show a negative result because I already know I can't roll the bike out of the garage in 1st gear with clutch pulled on a cold engine.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/23/2014 @ 8:32 PM *

The bike starts to creep forward with the clutch lever released about halfway. a little past half of the travel from the grip, perhaps. Definitely not less than half from the grip.

... I already know I can't roll the bike out of the garage in 1st gear with clutch pulled on a cold engine.

So where do we go from here, Hub?

$*^%king-A, Hub, I did a quick check online for OEM clutch kits with steels, fibers and springs and it is $300! Hate to drop that kind of coin if I don't need to.

For $60, I could try a Brocks HD spring kit with shims. That should increase the lever tension by %30 but I don't know how that translates to the squeeze on our stack of plates. That would be even cheaper than dumping oil and replacing with conventional ...and the effect of the springs should be instant where the oil switch might take months before it started to show any change in the slippage.

...or should I order the spring/shim kit and instead of just install, pull the plates out while I'm at it and measure them? If they're good, put 'em back in along with the new springs, if they're bad, order some plates and wait til they arrive to install with the new springs?

OMG, we have our first warm day here and I'm out on the bike. noticed it slip this time not from increasing throttle, just letting the rpm climb under seatdy throttle. when it hit about 7k, it statred slipping. Engine was at 2 bars, like on a cold day but we don't know the range that two bars covers. My guess is about 50 degrees F which would mean quite a lot to a clutch and oil viscosity.

Stopped at the grocery to pick up a bottle of wine. Barely made it home without shutting down. Stopping at a stoplightt, the engine temp climbed to 4 bars and the clutch was slipping under light throttle when I took off. By the time I rolled up to the driveway, I could not run it any more than just a crack. It was almost to the point of slipping constantly under almost no power (like parking lot power, we're talking), just putting along at 20 mph.

The clutch seems to work fine when I pull the lever. It won't hold under power.

Can't ride this bike. NOt safe at all.

Plates come out and get measured. I'm thinking springs get changed first/above post. Any thoughts?

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/20/2014 @ 11:26 AM *

You've gotta be kidding me. Oh well, get out the camera, get out the tools, the book, the net, you are about to tear down the pack and inspect WOThefuk gives?

Do I need that mic, the stack, the pack, the whole shitankeybootle? No. Remember how it comes apart, the same sequence assembles it back in only one way.

1.Springs: I have no special tools like a ruler wear my eyes say close enough. Stack the springs lined up like a police lineup. Who collapsed? Not a one. Then I know my springs are within spec. Reuse means - there is a spec sheet against the spring and if it's within spec = Not the problem if spec is within spec.

2. Steels: I have memory. I have a sharp side and a round side. Note how each plate comes out and in what direction it faces the pressure plate. Stack all the steels in the palm of the hand. Remember cut direction and stack in that one direction to go looking for... No matter if I look blue in the face is my color. You smear my makeup, my metal finish in other words, I was hot enough to move material into a galling of the finish. See the gall raise the plate surface higher and away from a more full contact? Not all in a flatter surface having a lot more surface contact as in smooth and flat? Toss is one kind of replacement or eat all parts as one. Do I run brand new over used? Not me.
It means the same to me as a used sprocket with a new chain over it kind of replacement mentality. That steel setting says, I need to be flat so stack me all on the palm and find the air gap. Swap top and bottom so they sit in the stack, you keep shuffling for air gap. See how I don't need to measure crap, my air gap and gall call the ball?

3. Frictions: I have a measuring gap or thickness. Scratch my pad with a fingernail. Do I rub along like I scratched marble tile or did I make a scratch it's kind of soft, but hard and durable is the test on this puppy. These parts, you more lay flat on a glass surface like a hand held mirror and swirl the mirror around to look under the plate for warp.

So far we have yet to shell out a dime for parts, because the spring in my eyes, my palm with air, and mirror gap, they all pass with fling colors: where wear my my measuring tools needed? I have perfect stack or sure looks within stack. My next attack is wash the plates dry. This is my dry run anyway. So gas or brake clean is still something done away from the building, we pour the stuff on the weeds and she evaporates away or filter it and pour it in the lawnmower.

Do cars use the same sort of clutch material and they run dry? Yes. Are the gp bikes dry clutch these days like some duc having that too? Yes. So your dry clutch test is just that. Dry the parts and install dry... IF... Your parts have passed the eye test, and measure to leave all doubt off the table, we see everything is in spec, we have to say the oil is working into the pads.

I'm just like a set of brake pads. I go squeaking on the disc, I pop the pads out, scrub them on the sidewalk till the surface has scrubbed away that glean, she is now quiet with the glaze gone off that surface. Lets assume we are not about to damage what is used and how many miles on it? So we want to apply that scrub technique to the parts on the cement. Why?

Because there are less lines made to alter the surface and bring the tolerance narrower say, if we took sandpaper and took the finish off the steels. Sanding takes material away where cement scrubs lines and that's all we need is to grip the pads some. We want to scratch the pads not smooth over them. They are still within spec so this scratch the surface deeper is not about to take the parts out of spec but the sanding down will we use a flat surface and all that.

See the contactheory? You are going to be outside by some cement pad, scrubbing clean oiled plates anyway. You take the parts and dry them so you don't stain the sidewalk and you scrub [a little] all the plates and their both sides. Clean off the debris then install dry after that scrub. Forgo the sump pan clean, this is an oil remove test; no parts replaced; I'd reuse that steel clutch cover gasket; I am testing for season storage; if this works and the cover does not leak; Zero dollar spent. I know what to look for and how-to repair if stored with syn.

Go back out and just hammer the bike. If that still slips, cha-ching goes the reach around.

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/20/2014 @ 12:57 PM *

As Hub pointed out... My clutch is my $$$. I pull my clutch pack apart VERY often and can catch problem driven and friction plates BEFORE they are beyond service limits and fail. The area between the friction pads on the plates is a light yellowish color when new. Once they have been well seasoned with heat they will change to a dark brown. I have found that the friction pads begin to "smear" when that color change occurs. Out comes the plate and in goes a new OEM friction. The stack height is increased by a few thousandths and my cluth "FEEL" comes back to the bar. I take ALL of the driven plates and stack them together. I hold them up to the sunlight and look for a beam to get by. If you can see ANY glimmer of light through the stack of driven plates, then someone is out of spec. If during the removal process you notice that a certain driven plate is being stubborn about sliding out. THAT plate is out of spec. Smooth edges go in towards the motor. Observe order of dis-assembly and install in reverse. 1 FAT friction (friction surface much larger than others), 1 SKINNY friction (inside diameter is much smaller than others), and the rest are of equal size. Don't forget the judder spring and base ring. I have pulled my entire pack and replaced a problem driven plate AT THE TRACK while the motor was still hot. Just get in there and do it Rook.

Here is Rook saving the syn. He knows if his wristittyuckedup or the oil smoked his wallet, WOThell did I just say? I'm having a 20th century flashback!

Looks like you both are suggesting the same approach but mav is more in favor of replacing galled plates. I'll pull them out and have a look.

... but mav is more in favor of replacing galled plates.

There is nothing written in stone about you find the gall/warped plates, spec the others out and replace what caused the problem. Reuse the others that spec within book clearances. I prefer a full pack if a few are wasted. Racing is a lot of inspection and downtime. Normal riding is to clean the sump and run a new pack and that's just me. You can decide what is best for you.

Just curious, have you change your clutch lever lately?
I had the same problem after installing after market levers. Changed back to OEM and the problem went away.

I changed to Pazzos just before last season started.

I don't think it is the levers though. The problem occurs when I am not pulling the lever. We already tested the lever travel and it seems to be right where it should be when the clutch engages. It would have been an easy thing to try out the OEM lever. To bad I already dumped the oil. We're going in the crakcase.

I will pull the lever off before I remove the cover. Just to have a look. Thanks.

The Pazzo clutch lever is removed. Yes, it DOES feel like the lever fits perhaps a bit too snug to the pushrod in the master cylinder. That might be the source of the problem if the pushrod is loaded too much. Ideally it shouldn't be loaded at all with the lever releasedsed. ---tis is a "MAYBE" for now. I have not tried the OEM lever back in the perch yet.

I ran into a small hitch. WHen I attempted to reinstall the Pazzo, it caught on the pushrod and pulled it out of the boot.

Then, when I attempted to reinsert the opening in the boot to the notch around the pin, the boot pulled off.

Am I correct in guessing that all that need be done is to pop the notch back through the small hole in the boot so that there is one rib on the outside of the boot and one on the inside?

Second, does the ball end of the pushrod simply sit in its rounded out receptacle in the MC, or is does it attach in some way?

Third, since the ball end of the pushrod is out, should I lube it?

Fourth, does the large end of the rubber boot pop right back into place and stay or did I tear something when I pulled it off?

just thought I'd ask before investigating this aftermarket clutch lever possible issue further.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/22/2014 @ 9:57 PM *

Look at the photo with the boot in place. That's how it should look. It's a pressed fit so do not wrinkle it, she is uniform around the machined hole.

Hole He Shit, Rook, did you have all that lever there all this time and that means the pivot needed to be shaved down so there is an ever so loose rattle touching. The other way is how the OE is loaded and you could match the AMk lever with slight load, not race gap (rattle).

Looks like we have this variable of a lever cocking the plates.

Looks like when that happens >>> >>> Heat is not transferring and it cooks/galls the steels like you are at the tree and about to leave burning the pack as you feed the lever. This lever however, this just ever so lifts the pressure plate away from the complete collapse, you wish your hand was set there at the light with that position right there.

Looks like we might have a lever stopped at the pack or we grow with heat all this time and you do have galling/warp/something/or nothing. You can't fuckup bulletproof that bad if it didn't slip that much. You slip the clutch out in traffic all day long worse than this little blippy going home all revving shit out of it. Not a problem IFfffff...

... We now look at our fork canopy over the IIIII]< pressure plate side.

1. I'm going to think: Did I have enough push back to push the rod just enough to break and my pp to fork canopy never moved = No warp/no damage/no need to tear down/just yet.

2. Changing my oil is a good thing from winterizing. This tells me: I do not have enough pack damage to even look at a play. Why? We already went down this road with N. It says warp at the grip is cold and dragging as is hot will drag to N = No warp/no damage withe zippy trippy run/N was fine finding.

3. Someone buy nco a round How could that lever now give you trouble if before you put it away last year you had no issue. One thing at a time so keep the clutch cover on. That says I refill and oh look, same canopy position of the outer ring's X to Y I did not move.

4. Lube: Any pivot, Rook, hit like a never-seize in charcoal color, or brake [I forget] that comes in copper color. The copper dries, the char maybe not so much. Each has its own use. But when in a pinch? That's a rub joint. The pivot hole and lever pin is another touch point, The tip in the hole, that's a touch point.

5. Gap Growth: That's the deal, Rook. Gotta ever so slightly round the pin down to let the pin move away from the plunger. Cold, it's a hair trigger. Hot, the pack grew so this pushes into the pin. Pin is holding a raggedge lever pull and if you look at that tip, match it. So when rounding, that lowers it so the pivot is not flat into a round hole. Get it?

6. Stock lever for a fast test. Or, mod the aftmk not the OE. The OE is the emergency so it goes right back to stock. Salvage the aftmk so you are the field fixer like it should have been out of the box for the bike. So if stock is the pin, do not mod the OE or NOLTT. Drill the afta if that needs a deeper sink for the OE pin. Right? OE parts bolt right back. AFtmk was not worth the OE damage of that pin mod, so mod the lever. Stock goes back unaltered think.

So to recap:

a. My canopy to clutch cover marks have not moved = No warp.
b. Badnco caught the next variable on the list I didn't catch, because I ASSumed.
c. The road test all stock should know... One test at a time so one less teardown, one less reach around.

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/22/2014 @ 4:08 PM *

If you would have been complaining about this issue on a bike with a cable actuated clutch my first response would have been free play adjustment... It does look like this aftermarket lever is mimicking the same scenario on a hydraulic system. I believe Hub has this one Rook. Good call chap.