Okay, look at the numbers and info on the bottom of my sheet. Std correction factors. If they mixed correction factor type and smoothing type, they f-ed up. If the ran SAE, they f-ed up. I do know. It's not a mystery again. Nothing in tuning is. Check the bottom of my sheet...
See the difference.
MIKE V, set it up right.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 9/20/2013 @ 7:09 PM *

Sir, I am pissed. That ain't right. Whatever you want to make it right, consider it done from my end sir.
And the A/F lines look close because of the comparative scale! They didn't run the scale deep enough to show properly what's going on. Any tiny difference in that line is actually huge under load. I'm pissed. That's just fucked sir. Those numbers are not right. If you are happy, I am too bud. But if ur not satisfied then I will assist in whatever way necessary.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 9/20/2013 @ 4:49 PM *

Let me clarify! I'm glad u posted those sheets! If I were you, I would want answers. I do too.

I do see the SAE deal there you're talkin about.I just looked again at the sheets...the top smoothing is....SAE 5.Is that what's wrong?I told em two weeks ago....STD smoothing 5....and the other one(below) SAE 1...is that correct?

I KNOW it aint right...it can't be...this bike fuckin rocks....with BOTH the flashes....way stronger an shit since the flashes.I don't trust that Dyno guy...I think he has the settings fucked up....who knows.Problem is...I can't just run off to the 'next' dyno...it's friggin 1000 miles away!LOL!!!At a Harley Dealer no less...

"If I were you, I would want answers"...ya....I do...but how the fuck you sit there and tell the 'pro'...'uhh...okay,shouldn't this be like this?And BTW...when you're powering up....and how about making a run in the correct gear?"

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/20/2013 @ 1:55 PM *

To me [on paper] both bikes peak close to the top, but you should sense C's curve a lot stronger and smoother. The red line of Romes is more in the 13 AFR's, C is more in the lean is mean HA-HA my dick is getting hard line.

Well...I KNOW the bike is putting down MORE than that fuckin sheet is reading...I can tell it is...no way is it putting out LESS/From STOCK?Fuckin no way.

Greenie, I've got notes out of a dynojet dyno manual. Very first thing you count if not present inside the dyno room.... How many pulls before the one that counts?

That calls for 4 base pulls before the bike: warms up, carbon is cleaned out, dislodged, etc., shows too rich from the beginning, shows false or hp gains with each heat build. So what number pull is this one? How many total pulls? This is book steps, not two runs we're done!

No it's suppose to be sae NOT std. Std gives high bloated numbers and sae gives the average that EVERY mag and top dyno people use to keep it fair. Seems that someone is dissapionted that someone else went to a normal dyno and used regular sae readings like romes said to do and that EVERYONE else always uses. I have been quietly waiting on this to see what I already knew and said before, there is only so much that can be done with these bikes, everyone gets there a lil differently but they are the same in the end. PERIOD. Grn14 there is nothing wrong with your bike at all, every dyno reads a lil different, so wayyy to high and some a lil low. If you really want more power you need to get a good full exhaust and tune to get the really good numbers. Not some flash tune of the week.

You guys are getting caught up on numbers like rookies. Come on guys you should know by now that a dyno is just a tuning machine. That's all, some will give to high of a number like some have posted here and some will give lower numbers, it's a TUNING TOOL period. Nothing more nothing less. I swear you guys act like guys with there first bikes here sometimes. I have never seen a guy who loves how his bike rides and then one machine gives it a bad number and he is pissed and mad now. Who gives a fuck? Do you enjoy your bike with the newest flash???? Then go out and ride it and be happy, or go to cblast's dyno with the same bike and pull 212hp, will that make you feel any better greenie??? This is why I have left this site, to many guys talking nonsense when they should be riding there bikes, not talking to total strangers and trusting them cause why......they bought the same bike???? I might just go hangout with every ram pickup owner and trust them on everything cause hell they bought the same truck, they must know what their doing right??? Enjoy fellows, just came back to say I told you so. Have fun kids!!!!!

* Last updated by: zx14racer on 9/20/2013 @ 2:24 PM *

They wouldn't let me in the room....LOL!I did like you said though Hub...though I didn't know WHY as you explained(thank you)...but yes...he did at LEAST two runs up after like three 'shifting and throttling' up through the gears.I don't know WHICH run was the test actually...but at least two he did a pull in 4th....and another(two) in 5th.He did not hit the rev limiter on a few of those.And on a couple...I could clearly hear the limiter kicking in(I think on the 4th gear runs)...but NOT all of them...which I thought was kinda.....strange?

"and he is pissed and mad now"...well...I'm gonna guess here that you mean me....about being pissed.NO...I'm perfectly happy with my bike...but if I spend money for a 'professional' to test how my bike is performing...and he's getting it wrong out of ignorance or whatever...THAT's what bums me...NOT the bike.I KNOW the bike has gained HP/Torque...the whole nine yards.Look at those fuel curves....excellent...puts my mind at ease about being 'too rich' or 'too lean'...so that's a big plus for me.I just wanted to see it for myself...hell...first bike I ever dynoed...just because.AND...I KNOW 179 HP is NOT correct.Not when they leave the factory pulling 196 or so.Like I'm gonna tell people when they ask..."How much HP does she have/"....'Oh,179'...fuck that....NO FACTORY ZX14R puts out 179...LOL!!!!!!Unless the pipes have potatoes in em or somethin;)....nah...I love the performance...it aint that.Fuckin yahoo running the dyno....he's the one fucked my shit up....bike's awesome.

You know ZX...it's kinda like a fighter pilot....okay...he's told his bird'll do mach 5...'cool' he thinks....he feels good about it...proud to be having it.
Takes er out....hits mach five...he can feel it...but wtf?the instruments are telling him..."nope...no mach 5 today...only mach2'...see what I mean?He still LOVES his mach 5 burn...but he also wants to see it for himself....regardless.Just because he can;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/20/2013 @ 2:40 PM *

Zx, is right, but he needs to take his thinking one step further...
If the tool is set up wrong, the results you get are incorrect. That is all I am saying. And if anyone thinks all sheets are run in SAE, why not open ur eyes, look at all the sheets printed in STD #'s, and lets just go ahead and compare apples to apples. The qualitative and the quantitative do not match up. That says the tool used is set up wrong. Just my 2c.

Actually NO zx14r is putting down 196hp from the factory. Maybe a really happy dyno that's about it. Most are right around 185hp or so like almost every mag already said. Mine put down on a really true reading dyno 185hp stock and after full exhaust tune and flies pulled I put down 201hp. That is pretty much the real power from this bike with a full exhaust and tune that is all your going to get. On cblast higher reading dyno with his stock headers he put down 212hp, I will bet you my full brock tuned bike with exhaust would be in the low 220's hp. But do we REALLY think that is real??? No just a higher dyno readings in STD. Nothing here left to argue, you guys didn't get the numbers you wanted you got the true numbers of THAT dyno. I bet if you pulled 219hp on a stupid high reading dyno with an stupid tuner everything would have been great though right???? Stop racing and cock measuring on the dyno paper and just ride your bike. You can't even ride it to it's fullest stock so just enjoy it and take care guys and ride safe!!!!!!!!! SEE YA !!

* Last updated by: zx14racer on 9/20/2013 @ 2:46 PM *

Well...okay then...so you did yer mods...you can feel she's better...now what if?yer dyno read....178 after all that...and you KNOW she's feeling MUCH better.Wouldn't you be a tad....disappointed?But the truth is...I'm NOT disappointed...not with the flashes...only with the operator...he didn't get it right...and he should have....I'm a customer...and he's eating because I'm spending at his shop....yes?If he doesn't know he's not getting it right...he needs to find out before he takes money from others for a job well done...yes?If he KNOWS he's not getting it...then he needs to get THAT sorted damn fast...or hand it off to someone who can.He's being paid to KNOW wtf he's doing...not to'think' he's doing it okay.

"you guys"...no...not 'you guys'...ME...I expected more(from the shop).Why shouldn't I...I'm trusting them with my expensive deal that I take great care of.THAT's why I wanted accurate numbers.THESE are NOT accurate...not even close to actual output of this motor.They're a modern sportbike shop...surely he must have thought somewhere along the way...'huh?WTF...this can't be right...when a stock V-Max is puttin down 185"Think about it;)

Okay...rant over...let's go RIDE!!!!LOL!!!!Right by his friggin shop...in a nice power wheely.....fuck themLOL!!!(Damn Yamaha shop anywho;) )

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/20/2013 @ 2:54 PM *

You guys still aren't getting it. A flash is just a replacement for a pc that's it. It is not going to unlock this magic power in your bike unless you change something in your bike's system like an exhaust. The flash is only meant to tune your power that's already there instead of buying a pc5 for it. You guy really think just a flash is really going to change that much by itself. Well you already saw on your dyno 2 different dyno readings and not much difference, but that's right it's the dyno guys fault. Listen an ecu flash is made to custom tune your power adders that you add on your bike that's it. There is no magic in it, just a way to tune your bike, and on the 14 to just open the flies earlier. The ONLY bike made yet that unleashs power from a flash in a big way is the newer 10R and that is because stock they shut down the flies at any rpm over 11000 to meet us standards, and the flash keeps them open all the way to redline to keep the power building. Grn14 178hp on a pretty stock bike is just a lil low, and if it was in std mode on the dyno that would net you around 185hp or so, and that is what your bike should be at with nothing really but a flash that has some good af ratio in it. And you guys riding gen1 zx14 looking for this flash are you crazy??? You have a totally different bike and your ecu tune will not be the same on a different bike that was tuned in Washington state and your across the country. Come on guys think a little will ya, why not just get a tune from a guy in mexico who has a cbr1000, it's about the same as getting a flash from a totally revamped bike across the country in different air and temps and atd. But to each their own, spend your money and go to a dyno and be disappointed also. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING beats a good custom tune on your OWN BIKE. NOTHING. Even brocks really good maps aren't perfect. They are on a different 14r at a different location, even those maps can be custom tuned to your bike and area better. Again a flash is a way to TUNE WHAT'S THERE, not an power adder, period.

* Last updated by: zx14racer on 9/20/2013 @ 3:52 PM *

I am getting to this party late.

Can someone explain this to me in simplistic terms?

I take off and send in the ECU in and its flashed according to my bike (Full Brock's Duals and PCV (which will obviously come off))

Or is the actual bike taken to be tuned?

You gotta remember elevation will make a big difference in HP #s. It is especially noticble when looking at #s for a 200hp motorcycle. I go snowmobiling out in the black hills SD every winter, I have to rejet for the elevation and I can tell and notice a big difference in power output. Lets just say Grns bike at sea level were to make 200 HP, now lets move it up to his current elevation theoretical he should expect to see a loss in horsepower of about 20hp, that same bike that made 200hp at sea level is now only making 180hp. The numbers look correct to me, and yeah it is possible the dyno tuner don't know what the hell he is doing so maybe a competent dyno operator might only be able to do it right and show another 5ph. Everything looks legit to me.

* Last updated by: nasty on 9/20/2013 @ 4:26 PM *

I am getting to this party late.
Can someone explain this to me in simplistic terms?
I take off and send in the ECU in and its flashed according to my bike (Full Brock's Duals and PCV (which will obviously come off))
Or is the actual bike taken to be tuned?

The would NOT need to be taken in and tuned again. The tuning was done in the dyno with my bike. The ecu was adjusted to compensate for fuel needed and more aggressive ignition timing flies opened fully etc.
THE BIKE (gen II), has on board sensors that help it to compensate for things like elevation and temperature. IE: air 'density'. Thus, when you flash an ecu and get the fueling correct, and all the other ignition numbers etc correct, you are not relying on the PC to 'add' in fuel. Your ignition and fuel maps work together better and in concert. So the ecu flash is not just another way to tune. It is a better way to tune. You don't ends up with every customer needing to dyno tune. That was done to determine the numbers inside the flash already. Grn14 went to a dyno to verify what was going on and get a hp read in his bike. I think that 'read' is off because the dyno was either not given correct set-up info or the dyno operator didn't follow his steps correctly and aggressively with that throttle. Or a combo of the two.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 9/21/2013 @ 3:48 PM *

I agree with nasty, I thought honestly grn was gonna post a # between 198-202, depending on variables. 30 off that is a bit much is all. Thank you all for the patience.

You loose roughly 3% of horsepower for every 1000ft above sea level.

Yup, and the bikes onboard electronics do account for a percentage of that 3%. So the disparity is actually less than 3%. I don't think the dyno #'s accurately reflect what is goin on is all. And 3% of 200 is more like 6.

6 x 3 = 18. 198-18= 180. 180 x 1.1 = 198.

Here is what I think. Nasty! Again, ur tip here. Using 1.1 as the correction factor would be dead on by atmospheric density. This would have returned grn14 a hp number of 198. :)) that is where it should have come in at or very close to that.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 9/20/2013 @ 7:08 PM *

Has anyone seen the schnitzracing.com flash for $75? I wonder how that flash performs?

I assume the ecu flash is going to provide a more "direct and effective" a/f delivery and as a result, more efficient and powerful than what I get from the PCV?

* Last updated by: ZX14MAN64 on 9/20/2013 @ 6:13 PM *

I assume the ecu flash is going to provide a more "direct and effective" a/f delivery and as a result, more efficient and powerful than what I get from the PCV?

Yes! Exactly!!!!!

So, I'm at 1200 or so feet above sea level. Let's say I buy a Brock's exhaust. I just send my ecu to cblast? No PCV required to unleash hell? What about the PAIR block off? Does that still need doing? What if I need a warranty repair? Is the flash something they could detect? Although it surely isn't as easy as finding a PCV plugged into the harness.

I don't ride in the track. I'm just want something streetable and reliable hat is properly fueled for the exhaust I have. Honestly the rev limiter bump and speed limit removal doesn't interest me much.

I'm 100% stock right now. Is there much to gain with a flash now, or should I just wait until I get an exhaust?

Is it possible to flash it back to OEM if there's a problem?

Is this something I can do myself with a proper cable and a computer?

Just wondering what my best options are is all.

I take off and send in the ECU in and its flashed according to my bike (Full Brock's Duals and PCV (which will obviously come off... Or is the actual bike taken to be tuned?

In simple terms, we have 3 tuning steps:
1. Chassis ~ Olins/Penske/Yabayooyoo is one type tune to the bike.
2. Engine ~ Port/polish/cam/stroke/bore/blower is the next type of tune.
3. ECU (fuel/ign) ~ Map making is how you change brass or fuel jets, but this time it is a frequency tune, or fuel injector duty cycling. This is done via making basically numbers that represent a timed delay more or less: is this frequency coming out of a box. That delay is like saying a duty cycle, or the time the injector is opened at said cycle or timed frequency. This is how you jet a fuel injected bike, if it was an apple and an orange was a brass jet. Both do the same or mimic each other in a way to achieve the same result.

I assume the ecu flash is going to provide a more "direct and effective" a/f delivery and as a result, more efficient and powerful than what I get from the PCV?

SomeWATT, yes. If say we look at a checkerboard layout, those are the [climbing] numbers [in the squares] the ECU uses. For in each square, down is rpm [the faster we spin], and to the right is throttle position, or how much fuel [demand] we need to calc for this timed event. If we interject those two angles, we see our duty cycle needs this frequency for this rpm, this throttle opening. Think of it like that if you will.

If we add a pc, we are layering over another checkerboard with the same square patterns, but this time, we change those numbers in the blocks. If the pc can mimic the same maps you can lookup with a flash, you are using the pc as this flashing unit that can capture this one frequency, change it to another, mimic the flash = You just paid for a redundancy no matter how you look at it.

Flash: There is no turn off back to stock unless you reflash it back or have it mailed back.
PCV: You flash in the pc, not the ECU. You can turn off the flash of the pc, ignore mailing in some other tune you rather try. You never flash the ECU with a pc, but the pc itself.

Flash: There are presets to toggle off, as in limiters for mph and rpm toggles to gain rpm.
PCV: Also can move your limits as well.

Flash: If you rather run lean, you have to send in the ECU each time you want to make a change.
PCV: To run in stoic, or lambda like a car, meaning, best economy under light load, you can run with an 02 and have the pc learn to run at best power/best economy. This is where you'd have to preset the ECU down to a leaner condition to obtain close to what the pc could do by its built-in learning process.