Good suggestion on the magnet. All of these little techniques are very simple but I would never think of them on my own. Sanding?? I guess I will just leave them as they are. Nothing broke. If a problem start t happen, I will know where to look.

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Hey HUb, That neat trick with the magnet worked great. I used my magnetic pickup tool with the flex shaft stem.

It lifted the lifters right out and I guess it ensured that the shim stuck inside as well. HATE to drop one of those!!

I expected the lifters to be solid steel cylinders from their regular shape and the polished surface. Interesting how appearances alter our perception. They are just thin, light steel about the thickness of sheet metal. Now I see why you call them buckets.

So, we talked about swapping around existing shims to get some of the clearances we are looking for. Is there any reason I couldn't trade shims between intake and exhaust---or do I need to swap exaust for exhaust and intake for intake only?

BTW, I tested my $17 HF micrometer with my $5 feeler gauge tapes and assuming the tapes are accurate to .001", the micrometer is right on the $$$$.

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Yep, I marked all the buckets for reinstall and kept the shim with it for measuring.

You're wondering why this didn't happen 3 days ago? Kiddies are gone back to mommy now. Me back to work tomorrow. I still have hope of riding the 14 before the snow flies.

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That thing up there measures just fine. Glad I did not get an expensive one.

I miced the OD of the stock cams and came up with .3735" which converts to 9.48690mm.

9.48mm is one of the OD sizes Hot Cams are sold in. Hub, can you confirm for me that 9.48mm is correct sized OD for use with the ZX-14?......if you know...I will call Dennis Kirk tomorrow to ask them also.

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Cool.........and this should be basic math, but let me run this past you to make sure I am doing it right. To find the thickness of the shim you want to adjust the clearance between the cam and the lifter:

Use the measurement of clearance you want to adjust to...................... .229mm (.009")

Subtract the cam/lifter clearance you measured with feeler gauge........... -.203mm
_______
Tells you how much additional thickness the lifter needs to be shimmed....... .026mm

Add that to the thickness measured with mic from old shim.................... + 2.57mm
_________
This gives the thickness of the shim that will be needed to adjust clearance 2.596mm

Round that to the nearest .05mm (shims come in .05 increments)................ 2.60mm <<<There is the new shim you need.

The difference between the new shim ................................... 2.60mm

and the old shim .......................................................... - 2.57mm
_______
............................................................................. .03mm

Added to the cam/lifter clearance measured with feeler gauge .............. .203mm
+ _______
Equals the new clearance you were shooting for.............................. .233mm = .00917 inch --just a gnats off of .009" which is as close as I can get.

Sound like I am figuring this correctly. Hope you follow. It's a bit hard to write addition ans subtraction problems in straight columns.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/24/2011 @ 9:10 AM *

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The valve has warn into the seat .026mm you need to use a .026mm smaller shim to maintain .229mm

2.570mm -.026mm = 2.544

I would round to give slightly more clearence than less

A smaller shim will give you bigger clearence

If I get you numbers right, hope you don't mind me jumping in

cheers

Thanks, Ethin and Hub. Looks like I pretty much have the right #s but I was using the wrong operation (+ or -).

The valve has warn into the seat .026mm you need to use a .026mm smaller shim to maintain .229mm

I think I was having the same misconception earlier in this thread. Seems as though it would be the shim that wears and perhaps the end of the valve stem that presses on the shim. Those are the parts that I can see. I guess I am forgetting about the way the valve seats on the inside. That must be the reason the wear causes the clearance to get smaller with time--the tip of the valve stem comes up the hole because the valve is waring away and IT is dropping deeper into the seat (so to speak). If it were the shim wearing or getting hammered flatter (the idea i have stuck in my brain), we would see the clearances getting larger with wear-- but that is not the case. Thanks. Glad I asked before ordering.

Let me make sure I have it now.

Calculate the amount to change in shim size
THE CLEARANCE I WANT..............**.229
minus
THE CLEARANCE I HAVE..............**.203
equals
THE AMOUNT TO REDUCEIN SHIM SIZE .O26

I need a shim.026mm thinner.
_____________________________________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------------

Calculate the size of shim to order
THE THICKNESS OF OLD SHIM........**2.57
minus
CALCULATED REDUCTION IN SHIM SIZE.**.026
equals
THE IDEAL THICKNESS OF NEW SHIM..**2.544
round to nearest .05(down preferably but in this case, that will result in too loose out of spec clearance)
SHIM SIZE TO ORDER SHIM..........**2.55

the replacement shim should be 2.55mm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculate what the new clearance should be.
THICKNESS OF OLD SHIM...............**2.57
minus
THICKNESS OF NEW SHIM...............**2.55
equals
INCREASED DISTANCE BETWEEN THE LIFTER
AND THE CAM (INCREASED CLEARANCE.)..**0.02
plus
CLEARANCE I HAVE (WITH OLD SHIM).....**.203
equals
NEW CLEARANCE WOULD BE...............**.223

I know this results in minimum spec. Will be hard to get middle ground spec without going too loose out of spec. with .05 increments in shims thickness[0.22 ~ 0.27 mm (0.0087 ~ 0.0106 in.)] I kinda have to go with what I can get.

I'd be finding the off shim, meaning, if we had 260's coming out the wazoo, we'd want to chase the 259's.

Yep. I have a couple questions coming up regarding that problem.

For now, am I figuring the math correctly to calculate (very close estimate I hope) the proper shim size to seek for adjustment of clearance?

The final push of the feeler gauge into that gap says it all.

I'm fearing getting everything up to the Camshafts back together only to find it is out of spec.

PERFORMANCE Tips:
Intake side; I want my intake tight so it opens sooner, i.e., so the event happens quicker = I run that gap down to minimum spec.
Exhaust side; I want my exhaust to open later so I keep the power pushing down on the piston dome for the last diminishing return I can exploit out of it = I run a loose gap on the raggedge of spec so it opens later.

Cool, thanks, Hub. IDK if I am going to be able to be that precise. Be fun to try, though.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/24/2011 @ 11:39 AM *

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^^^If you wouldn't mind taking the time to digest that math chicken scratch up there, I would greatly appreciate it. I know it is not as easy to read as words alone but in this case, the best way I can think of.

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Ask yourselves this question, would you rather hear your cams or smell you valves (burning that is)? just a thought
B-A

The math is one thing. The physical feel at the gauge is another.

.....As I am expecting. Any time you have that many steps in math and the feeler is really not even a precise measurement---it is all theory and not necessarily going to pan out to exactly what you predicted. I thik the math I am doing will come out to +/- .01mm. So far that seems to keep the couple new calculations I have made in spec. If that holds true for all, when I can't get an exact 2.55mm shim, that will be okay. 2.56 or 2.54 will still be in spec. Also, may be able to "chase" down the exact thickness I need by going with an off shim as you suggested. Prolly very few shims are dead nutz on the $$$$......and in the end, it's the feeler, not the mic that will make the final call. Can I feel .01 mm with my feeler tape?? nope

You need a ton of shims to dial in that close a tolerance.

I will posta diagram of the shims I need. Hot Cams from Dennis Kirk are selling for $6/refill. I have not checked how many shims come in a refill but even if it is only 2 or 3 that is a hell of a lot cheaper than OEM. + looks like I will be needing mostly 2.55 and 2.50 for exhaust. Prolly take care of all the exhaust for under $20.

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Ask yourselves this question, would you rather hear your cams or smell you valves (burning that is)?

I'll take cams. They are all actually just fine right now except one intake that really should be adjusted. None of the are close to 0 so all is OK. As long as I increase the clearance a bit from what I have now, it will be an improvement.

Obviously, I am not the expert on this at all but AFAIK, having minimum spec clearance or even somewhat less is not dangerous. Having 0 clearance---that is where you are in for big problems. ....or is there some danger of exhaust valves burning from emissions with less than spec clearance?

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You could put that back together with all having to much clearance, the hole lot of them, and no one will ever be able to tell you have.

you have to remember , valves are all heading North into there seat in the cyl head , what is a touch loose today will be getting better all the time. what is a touch tight will only get worse.

How many Miles did it take to loose that .026mm and how many valves didn't. it is and its not that critical with that little feeler tells you, if you keep it in prospective

Ethin, Hub..> my brain is too fried on adding and subtracting and converting inches to mm to try to figure how long it took me to wear .026mm.

Here is what i came up with, for what it's worth. I don't even want to try to explain because i'm sure you have the gist and that is good enough. I will swap 4 shims over to other buckets.

I will need to buy five 2.50mm.

I need two 2.40mm.

As we were just discussing, hopefully I will be able to find shims among the collection I buy that are "off sized" enough to match my caculations. If I can't find them, a couple hundreths of a mm is not going to matter much one way or the other. The shims I am planning to swap around do not match perfectly but they bring the clearance into spec and very close to the clearance I am aiming for.

I guess I will try to remeasure everything quickly and do a fast recalculation to make sure I have not made any errors. If I end up redoing the shimms after the camshafts are put back in, I don't want it to be because I made a simple arithmetic error.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/25/2011 @ 2:21 AM *

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The window micrometer makes it easier to switch back and forth dealing with inches.

Mine has a window with an analogue digital display and it has the scales on the spindle. They both are standard but if one was metric, that would be nice. The spindle scale is not easiest to read, however.

Glad I rechecked math. Found a coule that were off by a bit. Nothing drastic like I added when I should have subtracted. Found another swap over, too.

The swapped shims going in, install them. The shims that came out, install them where need be,

There will be 5 shims that get swapped to new positions so that means I will not have shims for the lifters they were swapped from (it is not actually a swap between two lifters as much as it is trade one shim over, throw the other away). I will need to buy shims and I think it is gonna be pretty inexpensive so, might as well do that. If theory and practice don't jive, I will just need to order another round of shims. Shims on me. A second round for everyone in the house!

Time to put the parts/tools order in:

STill need gaskets wil order from Stealer.

I'm curious, about something-- The right intake valve was only .004" clearance. I'm going down in shim thickness by ~.02mm-.05mm to adjust all the clearances-----is it conceivable that the valves will ever wear so much that there will not be a shim thin enough to compensate? I suppose there would be other problems that would lead me to replace the valve long before I ever got to that point of wear, hey?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/25/2011 @ 8:12 PM *

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the valve will continue its journey north , should be enough sizes for awhile yet.

When you rebuild a cyl head you put the valve in and measure the height of the valve coming out of the cyl head before the springs are added. this is set to a max - min spec. if its to high it could mean the seat is cut to deep allowing the valve to rise up to high, to low and cut the seat a little lower

Then you can also dress down the top of the valve stem in a valve grinder to shorten the valve to give the right height above the cyl head to bring it back to spec

You do this with new and old valves, or they end up all over the place when seats are added or ground , it may make it impossible to reasemble the cams with clearence, also limiting options through the life of the engine.

You should be fine

* Last updated by: ethin14 on 8/26/2011 @ 3:04 AM *

thanks, ethin. Here's "another what if":

I have marked all the lifters very carefully and for now, each original shim is in the same lifter it always was....but..what if some guy got his lifters mixed up and put them back on the wrong valve. obviously the clearances would be different because there would be a new valve stem the shim rides on. Would there be any other problem related to shifting around the lifters to different valves?

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They spin and fit in that wear hole sort of speak

swat I thought.

If I remove the chain off the bike, do not link the tooth to it back again, it begins another wear pattern.

That made so much sense wgen yu told me that but then somebody pointed out that the chain is constantly winding its way around the sprockets because of the fact the front is fewer teeth. The same link is not going to keep hitting the same tooth every revolution. That link doesn't stay devoted to that same tooth every pass---does it. (I'm done with math for a while).

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Agree with Hub, also the buckets and everything will have a given wear pattern by now and will be a little unique to each cam lobe and shim, valve stem etc.

You can put it back any way round it will still be OK, but the way it came apart is the way it was run in from new, remember the run in period that most get all stressed about.
That run in is still in progress, to a degree for the top of the motor it starts all over again , when you put it back together, all the parts will settle in together again.

That's why Hub has said in his own way a little bigger is better than tight , its going to run in a little again

The Buckets like the valves the cam lobes ,shims, bearing mounts for the cams, etc etc, are all made to a max and min tolerance and chucked into a bucket of thousands at time when manufactured, when assembled you never know weather you get a min shim or a max bucket or a perfect cam. and those combinations add up to a total measurement that will change if you alter the jigsaw puzzle so keeping them in there original order has some merit.

In the end That little feeler gauge says its all OK, because its got .229mm

When you reassemble it, it still comes down to the little feeler gauge saying its OK

* Last updated by: ethin14 on 8/27/2011 @ 1:49 AM *

Thanks ethin.

LOL!! If you recall, there were a few posts at the bottom of the previous page about mathematical computations to predict the supposedly perfect shimsize and I spent hours figuring that out two nights in a row.

Just remembered- we have those shim size tables in the SM, don't we? Gee that sure is a lot easier. Looks like they came up with the same results as my many hours of math. Not as precise but I doubt precision will really be all that noticeable with the feeler.

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Not as precise but I doubt precision will really be all that noticeable with the feeler.

Its not the gaps size in theory, unless your a racer after perfection that really counts, its just got to have a gap

No gap means , No mechanical clearance for moving parts and the big thing, valve head doesn't contact seat and provide heat transfer to cylinder head and then heat to coolant to radiator, valve gets to hot and melts , burnt out valve
and also sealing of the combustion chamber

cheers

Now, send that link off a tooth either way and do you see that new pattern being in about 65 crinkling spins.

Ah -- yes I do. Saw avid of a 14 with kinked chain on the dyno. The kink came around pretty quick. 65 turns takes about 30 seconds at mid to high rpm I would guesstimate. That's a lot of off pattern wear and it's all the teeth and all the links. I guess I will keep track of that on this chain. I gave up on the last one.

So anyway, i am waiting for my stuff to come from DK. Should be here on Wednesday. Off work that day so i will be wrenching away.

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Its not the gaps size in theory, unless your a racer after perfection that really counts, its just got to have a gap

I may not be much of a racer but I am one hell of a perfectionist----when I can be.

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Hub I got my shims and have miced them. The 240s are 2.41935, the 250s are 2.5019 and the 255s are 2.5781. Between the swap overs of old shims and replacing old with new I will be able to get all clearances very close to .009 Ex / .006 In.

The problem is that the two 255 I needed should be closer to 253 and as I miced, they erred on the side of bigger, 257. Yes, I miced all of the 255s and they are identical to the ten thousanths, every one is 2.5781mm . 257 is pretty close to what I have now and that is giving me less than spec clearance.

#1 I could order a couple OEM shims and hope they are closer to 2.55 or a bit smaller.

#2 I could just put 2.50s in there and that would give me about .0105" clearance (.011" is max).

#3 I could just leave the two clearances tight (one ia.008 and the other .007--was shooting for .009 on the adjustment)

Given option #2, would you consider it ok to run two valves close to max spec clearance and all the rest at minimum?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/31/2011 @ 10:49 PM *

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Yep, go for option #2.... All 250's. Loose will run tight down the road.

Right about the time all the perfectly adjusted valve clearances become out of spec, the two .0105" clearances will become perfect. Hope I can get all of them on the head next time.

It occurred to me that one benefit of doing this clearance adjustment on time in the bikes history of running is that you will start to develop a collection of discarded shims that may come in handy in the future. Seems like ALL the new shims are exactly the same thickness. I would much prefer to have a selection of same size shims that varied in thicknes by a few hundreths of a mm. There is a much better chance of finding precisely the shim you need.

There is a part of me that wants to order a couple KAWI 250 shims just to see if I can get closer to what I hoped for. Acording to the SM, there are also some shims that are made to even finer specs than the typical .05 mm See below this is p 2-24 in the SM : PERIODIC MAINTENANCE.

? Bisides the standard shims in the valve clearance adjust- ment charts, the following additional shims maybe used.

Part Number
Thickness
92025-1982
2.425 mm
92025-1983
2.475 mm
92025-1984
2.525 mm
92025-1985
2.575 mm
92180-1058
2.375 mm
92180-1059
2.625 mm
92180-1194
2.675 mm
92180-1195
2.725 mm
92180-1196
2.775 mm
92180-0209
2.025 mm
92180-0210
2.075 mm
92180-0211
2.125 mm
92180-0212
2.175 mm
92180-0213
2.225 mm
92180-0214
2.275 mm
92180-0215
2.325 mm
92180-0216
2.825 mm
92180-0217
2.875 mm
92180-0218
2.925 mm
92180-0219
2.975 mm

That 2.525 is a bit smaller than exactly what I wanted but if it is in fact 2.525mm as they claim, that will give me ~ an .00958" clearance where I am shooting for .09. I think I am going to have to just try those.

I think motion pro has that 90° sync tool.

Got that.

you now have your first 360° inspection. That means to time the cams,

That has been coming up and I was picturing shining a timing light or something like I (sort of almost) remember timing being checked on an automobile engine. This timing will be a little bit different. Ya, I will go by the book recomendations most likely. Have not looked that up yet.

Unless you timed the chain to the tooth, it really does not matter.

You mean marked the chain link to the exact tooth? Of course, Hub. You think I forget this stuff you tell me? I might question it on rare ocassions but never forget.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/1/2011 @ 6:55 PM *

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what happens when A shim gets spat? Sounds like that means it slips out of place under the lifter. I suppose that would prolly be like suddenly having 0 clearance hey?

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