Maybe a pro would know how to do this w/o taking the head off but I dont. The valve spring tool is like a big C-Clamp. If you could compress the Spring and get to the retainer some other way, I think the valve dould drop into the cylinder once the keepers are accessed and removed.

I cant imaging it would be practical to try and remove the head with the lump still in the bike even if it was still possible.

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I've never removed the head or the engine but I'd say the head could come out without pulling the whole engine. There is less room to remove the valve cover but you don't need to pull the engine to do that. I doubt the head weighs more than 12 lbs if it's aluminum.

The SM says: drain coolant, coolant reserve tank, water temp sensor connector, rear camshaft chain guide, exhaust, front engine brackets, 8 internal head bolts, 4 external....pull the head out the RH side. You have thefew other parts off already.

The SM says to remove the head to remove the valves.

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My computer sent me an email with 14R crap for sale on ebay and there is a 2016 head off a lump with 1000 miles for $850

http://www.ebay.com/itm/292091465810?ul_noapp=true

And if Rook says you can do it in situ, and he's smarter than I am - go for it!

* Last updated by: cruderudy on 4/21/2017 @ 3:39 PM *

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LOL...well I didn't neglect to mention, "I've never removed the head or the engine....BUT..."

I would consider boosting your compression ratio. You can change it dramatically just by using a thinner head gasket. A few mils thinner and you reduce the combustion chamber height = 13.0:1. The S1000 has 14:1...I might try 13.5 if I were you.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/21/2017 @ 6:02 PM *

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Different years have different procedures. I'm looking at the 2012-2014 SM (remember my bike is 2014, 1441cc's)
and ch. 5-24 cylinder head removal says to: remove engine, remove cyl head cover, cams, water temp sensor.....
I'm not saying it can't be done; there appears to be sufficient room.. but, when I asked the dealer tech. he said the SM is usually correct.

In the meantime I have contacted Kawasaki today and asked that this post be passed on to one of their technicians. Maybe he can come up with a plan. crossed fingers. In the meantime I am going to take a break and play catchup with some overdue yard work. The rains have finally subsided here in CA and the weeds have taken over.

One thing I noticed while posting the pictures of the retainer without shim; compared to Rooks picture I see that my retainers are touching on one end and wide open on the other whereas Rook's look like they are evening spaced. Not sure if this is indicative of anything... maybe just different. Is this what HUB was referring to in an earlier post?

RV

If you're in SoCal give me a shout when you go to drop the lump I'd be glad to help a brother out

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Thanks for the offer. Unfortunately I'm about 400 miles north of you outside of Sacramento. I could always trailer the bike.

One thing I noticed while posting the pictures of the retainer without shim; compared to Rooks picture I see that my retainers are touching on one end and wide open on the other whereas Rook's look like they are evening spaced. Not sure if this is indicative of anything... maybe just different.

DAM you have one sharp eye. You and me would make a hell of a team. I just wish I could get as much feedback as you do when I have a problem to solve.

Is this what HUB was referring to in an earlier post?

Hell if I'm going back and trying to figure that out.

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It doesn't matter where the gaps in the clips are.They can shift around a bit anyway. I would dig my heels in until Kawasaki takes care of you. Any tech from the factory should be able to easily see that the head assembly is not correct. If they refuse, demand an explanation that makes sense that would explain what we're seeing here. Along with an explanation that says why it would happen at these relatively low miles.

Mad

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That sharp eye sure isn't from wearing bifocals. Must be the analyst in me. When I run into problems such as this, either my own or others, the catch phrase is "This isn't the first time this has happened. This has happened to someone else and there is a solution". In this case, is my engine the only one? Or... are there others cooking and no one has yet to see? Maybe that's why all the interest. I wonder what would have happened if I had let the dealer do the valve adjustment.

Mad - I want you on my side if it comes to battles with K.

I've never heard of this happening before.

I wonder what would have happened if I had let the dealer do the valve adjustment.

I have heard that some do not even check them and charge for an adjustment anyway. I guess it depends on how reputable the sho is. The bike runs good so I imagine it would be tempting to some shops to charge you a few hundred bucks and get the bike out of there without needing to deal with figuring this out.

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I received an email response from Kawasaki this morning. It stated....In order to get the issue fixed with the unit, you need to take it to a dealer. Our technical support team would be happy to work with the dealer on this.

Well, there is no mention of goodwill so I am not sure what to read into this. WIll they cover anything or nothing? and of course if I do the work myself or have another shop do it, will they cover anything?

According to Brock's the engine needs to be removed to remove the head. More work which I am not sure I want to do.
As you guys know, the bike is partially disassembled so now the question is will the dealer accept it this way. I would need to box up everything and have it towed.

My head hurts.

No, you do not box up all the parts, just what is needed to start a sealed engine. Keep the fairing parts home. If the dealer tech is now stumped, they call the field rep. Field rep has access to the factory. The factory comes back with the answers, if not the field rep catching it and/or mechanic. Your ass is covered if that head walked = Machining fucup. The others are not past some service limit if they 'shim up' (not meant literally).

Options:
1. I have none. Better eat crow and pay for what I missed = Mech found it.
2. I can be one determined fucker here and keep at it until I understand the parts we go back and forth on the Q&A.
3. I just may have an issue and I'll play the odds it's a factory QC problem; that part when out in the field.
4. I can put up with this guy and his hubbish, I'll try to figure how simple the words are, oh shit, here he comes now and is about to start in below...

... uso, did you try swapping the ringer bucket with another valve that is within spec? I would take a guess that buying a shim bucket does not come in increments. Therefore, the swapped bucket (the ringer) over the spec valve would dial in, no shim change needed = Not the bucket in collapse mode or the bump flattened to cause more gap at the spec valve you chose.

uso, said you came up with the 'same gap no matter what size shim used.' That's not going to happen... Is that right, or did I misquote you?

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If you go to a dealership, I'd want them to agree to let you come in to see with your own eyes what is wrong and what is fixed unless you really trust them. Seems to easy to put it back together and not fix a thing.

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Hub - the problem valve; shim or no shim, the lash is always 0.005". Bucket is making contact with the retainer instead of the shim. Swapping with another bucket makes negligible difference. Six of eight intake buckets are making contact with the retainer. I do not see how this can be 'normal'. Something is not machined or wearing correctly.

I am leaning towards giving it to the dealer, at least that way K can give tech support and maybe just maybe more than help. I have to admit I am getting tired of this and just want it fixed. I'm a hands on guy but I am ready to throw in the towel on this one.

What to return? Enough to get the engine running so the dealer can qc their work. The body parts I can do myself easy enough. I will need to check with the dealer to see if this is acceptable. It would be stupid for me to reaassemble all the parts, which would take half a day easily, only to pay them to take all the parts off... again.

Stay tuned...the answer is in the future...

Good Luck! Really hope Kawi steps up and helps. I would try and get Kawi to supply a new head, I would not want the min wage stoners at the stealership taking it apart and trying to fix anything.

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Six of eight intake buckets are making contact with the retainer.

Normal.

Hub - the problem valve; shim or no shim, the lash is always 0.005".

Where is the original shim out of that probv and what was the gap before pulling the cams out?

What to return? Enough to get the engine running so the dealer can qc their work.

Top valve cover, the bolts for it, the cam towers and their bolts, the stick coils, and the gas tank. They fuck the timing up, the dealer eats it.

It would be stupid for me to reassemble all the parts, which would take half a day easily, only to pay them to take all the parts off... again.

Ding-Ding-Ding! We have a winner!

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Normal!?!?! I disagree. The nib on the bucket should be the only thing contacting the shim. The area around the nib should NOT contact the retainer, otherwise what is opening the valve? Valve stem/shim or retainer? Pushing on the retainer cannot be a good thing.

The original lash on the problem valve was 0.005" before pulling the cam. No shim lash is still 0.005".

Where is my prize?

The nib on the bucket should be the only thing contacting the shim. The area around the nib should NOT contact the retainer, otherwise what is opening the valve? Valve stem/shim or retainer? Pushing on the retainer cannot be a good thing.

The bucket has a small protrusion on the underside, it is what touches the shim. That protrusion lifts the bucket away from the retainer even if you use a thin shim. Under no circumstance a retainer should touch the bucket, a retainer touching the bucket can make the valve keepers to pop out.

I agree with Mad, "I think I would have Kawasaki take a look into it and perhaps, if you're lucky they can do a good will warranty for you. At this point I would stop working on it and take it to the dealer." Good luck!

The original lash on the problem valve was 0.005" before pulling the cam. No shim lash is still 0.005".
Where is my prize?

HA, funny, but that was for the plastic to stay home.
Have you placed a shim on top of the nib to see if the red ring is kissing the edges of the shim? You'd think the thing would make a racket hitting the retainer. 6 or 8 buckets with the same ring you said?
Have you seen that bmw ss engine with the cutaway valve cover; spinning up rpm and watching the springs rotate? Ever come across a micro shot of a cutting tool moving metal on a lathe in slowmo? It's like watching a mudslide how the cut shaves off that material. It moved so easily in other words. So I more see the metal bucket flexing at the rate of, 'for every action' = Equals reflex.

.15mm (.0059 in.) is minimum and still within spec... NPF is the loophole. Who's to say that thing won't move for thousands of miles being settled in. I'd say you have no case. So if a .15mm floats in that gap... being you said no matter the shim, throw the original back in and put it back together. Best thing you did was walk away from it for awhile.

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rviscuso,

If you end up taking it to the dealer, which sounds like what will end up being the case, I would recommend getting in writing what you will or won't pay for. Even if Kawasaki ends up footing the bill for any work to the head (replacement, machining, etc) the dealer might end up charging you for diagnostic time, labor, etc so I would want to know exactly what I might be charged before the work is started.

As for what parts to bring, don't bother re-assembling the engine, wrap the exposed parts to keep them clean (for example the top of the engine), bring all of the non-cosmetic parts in a box such as the valve cover, spark plugs, coils, throttle bodies, associated bolts, etc. Basically all of the parts you would need to fire up the engine and nothing more.

Who makes the decision of who pays for what? My guess is the dealer will start with ME paying for everything. If K kicks in some help all the better. But how to negotiate that? Do I just play it by ear as the dealer discovers what is wrong and how to fix it? I hate being in this position.

uso: Who am I talking to, dealer/tech/or factory?
D/T/F: This be the tech and I also write up the complaint on this here paper. Sign here.

uso: I need one valve adjusted. It is past its serviceable limit. The factory sent me. You write it like I said it.
D/T/F: Yes sir. I'm going to show you the exact quote of what you want done. Just one valve?

uso: Yes. All I brought was the valve cover. Cams are timed up. I have compression.*
D/T/F: Got it. I'm going to look up the flat rate time as to how long that should take, as it's reaas...

uso: ... Hold on a second. I want to see that warranty time vs. you clocking in on the job.
D/T/F: Shit man, I'm not about to beat that time so how about you pay for that clock time out of the book.

uso: Righhht... All you are going to do is install the cam, check that one shim gap and adjust it.
D/T/F: Riiight... I'm going to know the original shim is in there, felt the gap, now pop the page open...

uso: ... Yeah-yeah, left column to right there, that's the shim you need. No guessing. You have the shims, right?
D/T/F: Shit man, we change your oil and wipe our hands on your cam cover saying no shims needed. Need to order.

uso: What the fuck kind of place you running here?
D/T/F: What's a shim?

uso: Look, just get the clearance and let me see your blade slide it in there.
D/T/F: Did you bring the valve cover at least? I need to call the rep on this.

uso: Who are you?
D/T/F: This is the cashier. He was just kidding... That'll be S350.00.

uso: THE FUCKIZZ THIS??
D/T/F: You were adjusting the exhaust cam on the intake side of the head.

Good Luck, uso. You are so is going to need it.

*You know how I sign off? I'd have that original shim in that questionable valve, the cams timed, because I now know without a doubt... I have compression! You hand off that bike with the key in it, what are the odds... I don't play those odds. You took it apart, put it back together. The guy is going to put it back together, but he might have one tooth off and it's your ass against his. Would you leakdown a cylinder with one cam out? I've been in the car/bike scene (dealer level) and some of those boys are scary.

Signed,
NOLTT (not one lousy tooth timed)

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You probably have already come a lot farther toward solving this problem than your average dealership ever would have. I doubt they would voluntarily take this job on. They're not going to do it without knowing they will get paid (would you?). If you are the one paying, I think this will end up being at least a couple thousand bucks. Pull the valves and head yourself. If you still can't figure it out, haul the motor in with a pickup truck and let them have a stab. You did all the grunt work so you won't get charged for that at least.

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You can check with Uhaul and see if you can rent a trailer, AFAIK they have motorcycle trailers with front wheel chocks. YOu could probably buttun up the engine well enough to get it to the dealer. My concern is that since the bucket is riding on the retainer, it is pushing down on the spring first and could unlock the keepers. See what I'm saying? My guess is over time this will get worse, essentially micro hammering the retention system. My guess is every time that valve is opening and closing, that whole retention system is seeing a shock to it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those cases in a 1000 miles your engine would've grenaded. For that that have dropped a valve in a 14 engine...this might very well be what's happening.

I'd say if your dealers a few miles away, just put it back together and ride it. If it's hundreds of miles, I'd probably trailer it.