Go get'em, Romes! LOL!

I may be wrong without the teardown at this point, but look at the cam cap area. No blowby. No baking brown or tan in color; would be the slow compression process times mileage. But you look clean. That being so spotless, WOT are the odds, that last burst was the compression breaker like it happened all like right then?

Romes? What looks bad on the map end? Where did we go lean? Midpoint?

wow, just noticed something, look how the actuator is mounted to the turbine... that does not look right!

and thats an issue of not building boost..that spacing is way to far out and may not have kept the gate closed

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 10/12/2011 @ 4:46 PM *

Hi Bad, I spoke with Dave at Cycle logic about this issue. He said the spacer must be in place to keep the boost levels below 8PSI. He said that some people remove this spacer and then add some type of tee on the "vaccumm" (don't know if vaccumm is the right word), a .030 restrictor in the "vaccuum" hose closes to the actuator. One part of the tee goes to the turbine outlet, just like normal and the other part of the tee goes to sometype of valve which then vents into the atmosphere. I think the valve controls the boost levels but I think he said it was good to 12PSI.. So, for me, I have to leave the spacer in place...

Bad and Romans, gotta question. when you guys are running stock pistons do you do anything to lower compression? thicker head gasket maybe? also, do you remove any timing?

Bad, I am listening to you about these stock pistons.. just want to make sure if I use them that I don't need to do anything else... also, do you run pump gas in your bike?

Bad and Romans, gotta question. when you guys are running stock pistons do you do anything to lower compression? thicker head gasket maybe? also, do you remove any timing?
Bad, I am listening to you about these stock pistons.. just want to make sure if I use them that I don't need to do anything else... also, do you run pump gas in your bike?

I have done Zero to my motor and I'm Creeping 10 lbs. I run only 94 octane and have Zero dentonation.

Once again This is Bads back yard. He has tortured pistons from day one.

Hi Romans, any update on the PCV map I sent you? did my answers to the .PVM map file make sense? From the first update it sounds like you are pretty sure that the map is the cause of the motor failure, can you give details?

I heard back from Chris Jones regarding the Dyno run and he sent an example of one of his streetbike turbo kit dyno runs. He slao sent some information regarding his 260hp turbo kit. I wish I could go back and do it all over because his kit is far superior to the Cyclelogic kit in everyway,very,very nice. I will post up under a new subject line. This info diffinetly needs to be shared

Doesn't look like the one I posted earlier does it? I should go back to the person who dyno'd my bike and demand a refund...

Romans, what are the conditions when you experence the boost creep? top end runs when boosted for extended periods? I have never seen my gauge go above 8PSI.

Hi Hub, your reply to the pictures I posted of the progress with the teardown said "I may be wrong without the teardown at this point....". it sounds like you are questioning your initial diagnosis. Should I hold off with removing the head? Just wondering if you had some other ideas which I should be doing first..

He said the spacer must be in place to keep the boost levels below 8PSI.

it has to be snug-up to the spacer and turbo housing ..i can see yours was loose and thats no good also that spacer depends on the spring pressure of the actuator.. i've seen boost as low as 4lbs with that spacer and some at 7lbs with that spacers ..its nothing set in stone on boost level just cause it has a spacer ..I USE STOCK PISTONS BECAUSE REPLACEMENT IS CHEAP..Aftermarket pistons break too and cost a fortune to replace ..you just can't buy 1 but a whole set of 4.. dragracing like i do i expect engine failures.. it happens even to stock bikes if you race enough shit breaks .. pump gas is trash IMHO. I use E85 now for everything and AVgas before that for street and C16 for racing.. but i had to upgrade my fuel system for the E85.
it just depends tho on what you gonna do with your bike.. streetbike long rides 300 miles i would have to use pump gas and i'd keep the boost to 5lbs and no long 3 mile runs on boost .. i use to remove timing but it defeated the purpose by causing me to run more boost to make up HP for what the timing stole ..more boost you build the hotter the charge air..on e85 i'm making as much power at 8lbs as i was on AVGAS or C16 at 12lbs..

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 10/12/2011 @ 8:52 PM *

mine made 250hp @5lbs of boost on avgas with the cyclelogic kit ..and it had no lag ..throttle reponse was as good as stock ..instant hit

I am in an absolute state of what are you waiting for?:

1. I have compression = Valves are not bent ~ Is a sealing partner.
2. I have compression = Head gasket is not blown ~ Or else both sides would not have compression of a bad gasket.
3. I have low compression = With good valves seating, gaskets keeping the water and oil separate or I'd steam clean those spark plugs and all the carbon off like a steam bath and flush it all out the exhaust... It ain't happening.

Conclusion? Pistons! I am in an 'I don't know if the rings shattered/locked in their grooves? That is my guess. But to tear down? I wanna hear nuts and bolts cracking out of that frame... Get crack'inn!

rspauldi

HAVE YOU DONE A LEAK DOWN TEST . with all spark plugs removed .

No Bad I din't do a leak down test. I was going to, but it became clear that to find the low compression the head was needing to come off... I have never done a leak down and I don't have the tool. so I basically decided not to wait and to start the healing process as soon as possible, or as Hub would say

"Get crack'inn"

Question, why would you replace all pistons if only one failed? The bike only has 5K miles on it...is that more of an insurance thing or do you think they might be damaged as well. Please remember I don't ride it as hard as you do. I don't do dead stop launches, I normally just roll on the throttle until I feel the stopper, shift a few gears and then let off.. we do some top spreed stuff on the weekend but not for miles at a time... let me take that back.. at 188 MPH the miles rack up pretty quick... but I have only been there once..h

It is either pay for the other 3 pistons and wrist pins to be x-ray'd for cracks, or take that x-ray/shipping to and from the company that has one and knows where to look for stress; You know the one 75psi is a given. So, that says, do I take a chance the other 3 pistons may just close down on the piston rings and lock those 3 too?

I have to what? Pull the engine again? I have what? More damage, one piston broke? I won't listen to turtle since no one else does. I'm just going to change what looks bad and obvious to my eyes. I know it takes one crank rotation to make one blow and then the rest is 10,000 rpm of washing the parts in the spin dry. Yeah, spin the rod out of the case and no oil is now a dry engine, no?

All because you did not x-ray what is over stressed to begin with. Look at how the 1441R has beefed up small and big ends on the rod and crank journals. Imagine that kind of HP one time is all it takes. How many times does a valve bend? Once around. Make sense the damage happened with one revolution and you are more making less damage at 186mph than you did getting up there on the first WOT of the throttle.

Think back. What did you hear go wrong and where was that mph and throttle position when it happened? When you hear it initially, there went you 75psi and more or less, Stuck There! Make sense?

A leak and a compression test are basically the same thing. Crack'inn work is the 10% window. If leak down is 9% leak; get crack'inn, what is the difference with a compression test, you have a 10% difference between piston sealing. The 10% compression rule is 1% off of the leak down rule.

Leak:
1. 1% is ideal. 2% leak is race ready all day long.
2. The 8 to 9% window is tear down the leak down.
3. Round out the number, you are 10% down on power.

Compression:
1. Book is ideal. Book says; You can be as high as 228 psi, or down to 145 psi... BUT!!! ... Follow the 10% window, you have a 10% difference between cylinders.
2. The rule states, if 150 psi is in one cylinder, 140 psi [inn] the other, the 10% window difference is to get cracking on the tear down. You are inn for the night. You are inn the garage for who knows how long? Motel6 the INN at the house, I got cracked eggs for breakfast, bacon, toast... Did you pull the throttle body off yet? Did you say, cereal? Snap-Crackle-Pop those nuts and bolts off!
3. Call in sick for work. You're too busy tell'em!

Question, why would you replace all pistons if only one failed?

i don't replace all 4 .. aftermarket pistons set $600.00 or 1 piston $300.00 ..stock a set of 4 off ebay $75.00. thats why i use stock pistons ..compression test are fine but a leakdown test will tell you where the damage is by letting air pass thru intake or exhaust (valves) or crankcase (rings)..local parts house will have a tester for around $50.00.. air compressor $100.00 .. OEM HEAD GASKET $100.00.. when you do go back together install APE studs $130.00 . Carpenter springs $200.00.. also order you a spring compressor off ebay $40.00

Motel6 the INN at the house, I got cracked eggs for breakfast, bacon, toast... Did you pull the throttle body off yet? Did you say, cereal? Snap-Crackle-Pop those nuts and bolts off!

Hi Bad, I do have a spring and air compressor, found some Carpenter springs for $133, no Ti retainers or base just the springs but I think for this application that should be good,right? first I have heard about the Ape studs, what is their failure mode? do the OEM's stretch or break. I have done this in the past on some of my dirt bikes and if I remember correctly they were a real PITA to get out..but hey, if it needs it, I figure out how to do it.. No OEM pistons on eBay, If I could find a set for $75 I wouldn't think twice, in they would go.

Shopping list:
[list=1]
set of 4 pistons,rings, pin and clips... leaning toward OEM.
Rod and crank bearings... i don't know which color though.
Gasket set to possibly include a thicker head gasket.. don't know where to get thicker head gasket.
Carpenter springs... no Ti retainers or base
Ape studs
Machining to fix a bad cylinder wall.. if by some miricle the holes are ok should I run a hone through them?. Also, do you know of a reputable machine shop here in Dallas?
new torque wrench... mine is ancient and it probably waaay out of calibration.
then oil, filter, spark plugs..beer, crying towel, and for Hub some snap-craclke- without the pop.
[/list]
I am sure I missing something, oh, where the devil do I get those steel gaskets between the manifold and turbo, and then turbo to exhaust... damn sure don't want to order from Dave at CL

when all the above is said and done we start back over at what got us here... TUNING!!! Romans, any updates on the map? sounds like you had it narrowed down to a problem area...

springs you got are fine

studs

http://zxzone.com/studs.html

pistons

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110515344510&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

bead hone for nikisil is a must or the rings don't seat right

if your in dallas buddy ..i'm in lagrange texas..if you got all the parts and want to travel (4hrs) i can get this engine together in 1 day .. send me a pm with phone number

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 10/13/2011 @ 11:44 AM *

You might find the rings have collapsed from heat, are crushed by hammering of slight detonation knock. Like 1bad has mentioned, the leak can send you 3- air sounds, one gargle sound. Leak down goes something like this:

1. Intake noise ~ That comes right out of the intake or thru the throttle body ports.
2. Exhaust note ~ Is a whoosh out of the end of the pipe, we have bent/worn valves, same as the intake would point out.
3. Ring(s) tone ~ Here is where you remove the oil cap on top of the clutch cover, stick an ear down there or throw a kleenex over it. That is ring pressure loss someway, somehow?
4. Lawrence Welk Head Gasket leak ~ When you remove the radiator cap, this is where ha tiny, ah tiny bubbles come out. 'Shadingding, take it away!'

With that said, a compression check without a leak is a mute point:
1. If no compression = Tear Down.
2. If a head gasket leaked, water turns that oil chocolate in color = Tear down.
3. If the other valve bent without compression = Tear down.
4. If the all else is within spec, the rings will show what the health of that cylinder is in. Who needs a leak down.

Oh fuck those pistons! Look at the color of the pins. That engine is down for some reason. No skirts shown = PASS!

Oh fuck those pistons! Look at the color of the pins. That engine is down for some reason. No skirts shown = PASS!

that is what pistons look like that seen nothing but a rich jeffo life

I am sure I missing something, oh, where the devil do I get those steel gaskets between the manifold and turbo, and then turbo to exhaust... damn sure don't want to order from Dave at CL

Gaskets Click

. TUNING!!! Romans, any updates on the map? sounds like you had it narrowed down to a problem area...

Your New Map Awaits.

if your in dallas buddy ..i'm in lagrange texas..if you got all the parts and want to travel (4hrs) i can get this engine together in 1 day .. send me a pm with phone number

There is a offer I would jump on ASAP. Bad likely knows that Motor better than his wife lol

Got your map this Am. Well, I know why you having trouble. Good News is We can get you fixed up. Bad news is from looking at the Map odds are you have Damage,,,as you already know. Ouch.

2- did I check the autotune box, yes. when this journey first started all I had was a .pvm file from Dave which was crap. I worked with Dynojet and got autotune working and things seemed to get much better. I rode the bike for probably 450 miles while in autotune mode.

4- All of the tuning was done while on the Dyno and by the tuner. The autotune switch has remained in the off position at the recommendation of the tuner. I trusted the tuner when he said "you are good to go" I didn't realize he was saying good to go boom...
5- No trim values were excepted by me. I didn't change anything from the time I left the shop.. basically no need to, I thought I had a good map.

The Map You have been using From Dave was and still is good starting place

I know Daves Map is to Lean down low. My thinking is, map was made on the 06-07 Model bikes with the bigger 440 cc injectors.

Auto tune can fix with the recommend Trim Values

Ok, Bad News. Your auto tune was turned on with a Stock AFR table in the Map NOT a Turbo AFR table that is needed.

So, the Fuel needed to cool your pistons would have been removed while you rode. Auto Tune was only doing what it was told to do in the software. 13.6 AFR is great while town riding but under Boost is lean.

If you rode 450 Miles Prior To the Dyno Tune the damage may have already have been done, or well on it's way. No way to know for sure and does not really matter now. We move on.

The trim values that Auto tune has recommended to you with that map installed tell me that you Fuel Pressure was Low. Is it ? Double check. Was bike on Dyno with low pressure ?

I don't know for sure when damage happened but it could have been on the dyno. Look at your tuners AFR #'s and look at the #'s Chris Jones has posted in above map. Your Tuner was Having Trouble that much is clear. The color inside your Exhaust housing supports, showing Molten metal = Bike Ran Hard while lean,,,, Dyno or maybe your earlier Runs ?

When you get going we will enter all setting one at a time. You must get your fuel pressure right and then we will set up Auto Tune With AFR Map for Turbo and all will be fine. No two maps will be Exact but software will Iron out the wrinkles.

If I can Help In Any Way, I will.

Questions that I will need answers for

1. When does your boost come in under load ? What RPM.

2. When does Boost come in when not under Load ?

This is how I build my AFR table.

When I changed my gearing this info also changed. The bike is not working as hard withe 17/45 as it was with 17/41 so my off boost #'s moved up 1100 RPM higher.

No hurry on this. Wait till your running safe.

The bike is not working as hard withe 17/45

17/45 will move some bacon ..