yanni, I'm going to exaggerate, overstate, overemphasize, overstress, overestimate, and overvalue these scenarios:
1. China lands on your shore with 10 million armed soldiers on a mission to rape and pillage.
2. It gets so out of hand, the criminal element is so organized, it overpowers the police and armed forces.
3. The original habitat are sick of being run over when they want to rob you, they hide in the bush and you never make it back to civilization no matter who you send out looking for them.
4. Your so called [insert system] is so 'boot on your throat' kind of system, how do you free yourself from it.
5. A cult moved in and you let it happen hook it line and sinker, the cells keep taking out the innocent.

You're going to select whatever list below by choosing only one. As soon as you see the other human above and without a doubt is recognizable so you are not about to commit murder, you:

a. Talk your way out of it.
b. Slide a flower stem down the barrel of that gun you are facing, 1960's style.
c. Join'em if you can't beat'em.
d. Commit suicide.
e. Take the safety off and aim well...

... Well?

Hub, one line you wrote gives the whole game away.

It gets so out of hand, the criminal element is so organized, it overpowers the police and armed forces

So you believe that if a criminal element is so strong it has the ability to overpower the might and resources of the The United States of America's military and police forces, Joe public has any chance whatsoever to make a difference no matter what firearms they are armed with?
Hub, you are talking about bringing a pea shooter to a nuclear weapon fight!

Again, the second amendment was written in the late 1700's when the government's military arsenal was predominantly rudimentary rifles and so allowing the people the right to bear arms, ie rudimentary rifles also, made complete sense to combat a tyrannical government.
Your Forefathers were 100% correct and extremely astute for their time.

But they could not have know what the future held.

Arming the people to protect against a tyrannical government is no longer relevant in 2019 even though it is still written in your Constitution.
Yes, the people have all manner of fire arms.
But the Government have nuclear weapons, F-35 rapture aircraft, Aircraft carriers larger that a small town, deadly drones, submarines that stay submerged indefinitely and attack while never being seen, possible space based weapons, etc.

I'm sorry Hub but unfortunately your point is mute.

The only point you might have made is for a country to have a powerful military presence to deter China or anyone else from invading which is another topic all together...

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/29/2019 @ 4:11 PM *

Probably not really worth discussing this topic any further is there?
Listen to the passion that all have when stating their case.
Plus everyone has a very definite stance and opinion on this subject.
But most of all just like politics and religion no one is going to have their minds changed.

So many are happy to have the right to bear arms in the US.
Good luck to you.
It's your country.
But there is one thing that cannot be denied.
If stricter gun laws are not an option and you want to keep your guns, you will need to find another method to prevent mass shooting after mass shooting that is never ending and ongoing.
It is every countries government and citizens responsibility to work towards protecting the innocent.
So whatever the answer or way forward is it needs to be swift because remember that next innocent victim could be your kin?

Me, I'm as happy living in a gunless society as you are living in a society full of them.
I guess it comes down to living with the choices we make and the related consequences whatever they may be.

All good.
Each unto their own.
Good luck to all...

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/29/2019 @ 5:59 PM *

yanni, I think you missed it.

1. China lands on your shore, not ours.
2. It gets so out of hand, is again, on your island.
3. The original habitat are the aborigines.
4. Your so called gov needs a deep state cleaning. If you are happy with your gov you can keep your gov.
5. A cult of the knees are there too.

This was your country, not ours.

Here, I'll make it simple. On your knees and memorize the book or choose a gun and shoot the messenger.

'Arming the people to protect against a tyrannical government is no longer relevant in 2019'...well,I wish I could agree.However...look no further than the middle east.But I do agree...today's weapons systems in place by Govt's would mean a lot of killed civilians.If it came to that.It's hard to imagine though that armed citizens...if they choose to rise up against police and such couldn't do a helluva lot of damage before being taken out with an f-35 or something.It'd be guerilla warfare in the streets.That wouldn't be stopped easily with some hi tech weapons.Many armed citizens here HAVE serious hi tech weapons available.Not jets or ships...but plenty of machine guns and rocket launchers and such.I don't think this Govt would choose to go down that road.No way.And that's one of the points to the second amendment.A well armed citizenry will make a Govt think twice before starting anything.Maybe the other countries don't think this way,but the founders wrote it like that because they could envision scenarios that weren't likely back then.They weren't dumb to think 'this is as far as we need to go' with their own technology.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/29/2019 @ 7:34 PM *

Okay Hub, lets take your question as relating to Australia.

You present a hypothetical as to what if Australia was invaded by a country such as China?
The answer is simple and no secret to anyone.
Without assistance Australia would be overrun with relative ease.
But the reason for this has nothing to do with it's people being unarmed.
It is because Australia has a minor at best military presence.
Sure, if all Australians had guns a few pockets of rebels would create a headache or two for the invaders but nothing major. And we both know there is no way the invasion would be repelled by a population with firearms so I'm not exactly sure what your point is?

Australia could potentially arm it's population for the hypothetical of a possible invasion that may never come.
However we both know that would actually make minimal if any difference to potential invaders.
And we both also know a consequence Australia would then inherit is the massive firearm violence issues the US faces today.
All for a hypothetical threat that hasn't occurred in 250 odd years?
The only thing that would protect Australia from being over run (without assistance) is a stronger military and again that is another subject.

I know you are passionate about the subject Hub, and maybe your opinions are relevant in the US, but I don't know because I don't live there.
Just as you do not Live in Australia or New Zealand and therefore cannot know what is relevant there.
But I can tell you that 95% of Australians are extremely grateful for the governments actions after the Port Arthur massacre. There has not been a gun related massacre since and the citizens of Australia and New Zealand have lived in countries where firearm violence is minimal and not a daily occurrence.
Parents in these two countries can also raise their children without fear of them being affected by gun violence which must stand for a great deal.
Would this not be a standard for any parent to want?

So hopefully I've answered your question for both the US and Australia scenario's of being invaded, both showing an armed population brings no result or advantage.

Yet again, it's all good.
You stay in the US with your guns if you are okay with the related issues being secondary to the advantages, and I'll stay in Australia/New Zealand where we have no major related firearm issues.

We agree to disagree.
Nothing wrong with that...

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/30/2019 @ 1:07 AM *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT0xHrshRsg

So is Ben correct? You sound exactly like what he said. A remote incident is nothing more than gov overreach, right?

All for a hypothetical threat that hasn't occurred in 250 odd years?

Oh look, yanni! History repeats itself? Say it ain't so. How short sighted are you? I'm showing mankind does not learn from the past. A continuous cycle of centuries of new repeating the old. War/chaos/overthrows/coups/civil unrest/insert history.

This is too simple. If the only weapon was a club carved from a tree, it still means a human's right to its self preservation.

If you lived here, you took a pledge to become a citizen. It would be an act of treason to betray the 2nd amendment if not all 10 that you do not agree with.

Careful where you step on dis earth, if one brings that kind of shithink to these shores.

And we can agree to disagree about one's loyalty to those basic rights to self defense, gather food, protect turf, self rule, kind of rule of thumb.

Hub, I don't agree with you.
Hub, you don't agree with me.
Hub, nothing you have written makes me consider things any differently.
Hub, nothing I have written makes you consider things any differently.
Hub, you obviously have not changed my mind.
Hub, I have obviously not changed your mind.
Hub, I am very comfortable not having access to firearms in the country I live in.
Hub, you are very comfortable having access to firearms in the country you live in.
Hub, I'm where I want to be.
Hub, you are where you want to be.

Let it go mate...

However if you can't I will yet again ask one simple question that no one with your point of view ever answers.
The by-product of your second amendment right that you are so passionate about is the most horrific gun crime rate where innocent citizens of your country are consistently being killed over and over and over in never ending firearm related incidents / massacres to the average rate of approximately 109 per day.
Thats 4.5 people per hour.
In the time it takes you to respond to this 1-2 people will have been killed by a firearm in your country!

Gun Violence in the United States

Very simply, what is your answer to this problem Hub, or is this a perfectly acceptable state of affairs?

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/30/2019 @ 8:52 PM *

In the US,there's simply no way that citizens are gonna give up their guns.They know they need them for 'that time' when something jumps off...whether a criminal attacks,or whatever.It can't go back to the 1700's.The solution is within people.And that's not gonna change.Criminals believe this is it.This is all there is so get it now.Unfortunate.But that's how it is.You don't disarm law abiding citizens 'in hopes that'...nope."hope" doesn't necessarily create facts.Obviously only criminals here would have weapons,it'd be much worse.

Other countries have a much greater amount of mass shootings...though they're called 'terrorist' attacks.So what is the problem?Guns,or people?As long as there are people mentally unstable,there's gonna be murder.Itf not by guns,then whatever.You don't stop this thinking by removing guns from people.So we accept it as a price that's payed for freedom.In a perfect world,people wouldn't be thinking like they do sometimes.But it not.ANYWHERE in the world.

What're the stats on cities and states that allow concealed carry and open carry of firearms.What's the homicide rate in those compare to restricted states?If criminals know people are carrying,or see someone carrying,they're gonna think twice before using their weapon against others.I say allow open carry.Sane legal gun owners aren't killing people.FACT.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/30/2019 @ 1:33 PM *

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/mass-shootings-by-country/

Very simply, what is your answer to this problem Hub, or is this a perfectly acceptable state of affairs?

yanni, it's extra simple. We are a free society and to be free this is acceptable. Besides, it's a lone wolf. It's not an epidemic across the country like the killings everyday. Relax. Proportion wise, we are low on the mass-shooting data. Criminals have rights. You can't start gathering up every whack thinking they are going to do something. You have to catch them in the act or have enough evidence to stop it from happening.

We are a free society and to be free this is acceptable.

I have no comeback to this because I am completely at a loss for words.
I just never saw anything like this coming.

Hub, it is obvious you and I are universe's apart on what we consider the value of human life to be, and what is and is not acceptable.

Enjoy your guns...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/1/2019 @ 8:18 AM *

Everithing's getting confusing, actually.

Seems its society and not the tool. We carried rifles and shotguns on racks in our back window when I was in high school, nobody was ever hurt with one.

* Last updated by: Backinblack on 11/2/2019 @ 11:20 AM *

I carried a 38 in the glove box all thru HS in the 70's in a suburb of Chicago. I dont ever remember any shootings
other that pheasants and ducks in my HS days. And the dope was weak then so I would remember.

AKs and AR were around then too. Local police range taught us to shoot ARs at their range in Boy Scouts.

Times have changed

Recent studies have shown that at least some school shootings could have been prevented if access to assault weapons was restricted and the mentally-fucked up denied that access. Background checks DO NOT determine one's mental fitness and most of he guns used in mass shootings were legally obtained, many times by folks with no police records.

The value of an armed populace vs. tyrannical government is not high considering the feddle gummit has smart bombs, drones and blockbuster bombs, although with the current fascist in office, I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel safer even if they aren't.

Anybody who thinks nothing can be done and it's just the price of living in a "free" society may change their minds when one of their own children doesn't come home from school. Personally, I'm glad mine are out.

Wow!
Remember Bumpfire, Cleenfourteen, Scott, and whatever he is calling himself today?
Just got through reading previous posts on this thread from way back when (with all of his obviously being deleted when he was banned) where I was well and truly on the offensive!
That guy definitely knew how to get the worst out of me in his own sweet way.
And it continues on the "A Photo You Took Today" thread where his lying and deceit was proven at the potential cost of his family.
I know I shouldn't be bringing up this dark black and negative stuff, but he really was a low piece of work that was shown up for what he really was...

* Last updated by: yannih on 4/3/2020 @ 8:36 PM *

I got away from this bs cause it got way over the top personal, regardless of anyone position on anything.

What was this shit about ?? "where his lying and deceit was proven at the potential cost of his family."

If u dont want to get into it that's ok too

Rudy

Crude, happy to go into it and explain but are you sure you want this to resurface?
Plus you can get 95% of the jist by reading the two threads (towards the end) that I mentioned...

* Last updated by: yannih on 4/4/2020 @ 1:10 AM *

Yep.
Your reading and comprehension skills are beyond reproach.
Thanks for summarising it so brilliantly for everyone...

Yawn.
Man there are a lot of "Bumpfires" out there...

Actually is that you again Bumpfire, Cleenfourteen, Scott, etc?
Number of posts to this forum about match and the same MO of personal insults are in full flight...

It just seems bringing this up after how many months isn't very healthy for the forum in general

I crap classier turds than yourself.

suggest just letting it die, for what ever reason'

More important things in the world today

I've got a couple of 5th'ers here for you, yannih. Far from being bored, I can watch this kind of stuff all day. So I click on this one, and he sends you to this one. This is more a better definition of the 5th in action.

This one is in need of listening, and then the scenario at the end. Then he mentions the pot guys. So in 20 minutes this shows a better understanding why the 5th kicks ass.

My God Hub, how many times are you going to prove my point for me???

All these video's at one stage or another reference illegal activity and how the 5th can assist in not being charged for it!
Brilliant!
Again lets protect the guilty.

With video 1, who do you think the big talking "shut the fuck up" boys would call first if they needed assistance from an illegal or violent act?
Yes, the Police. The very ones they are compromising.
Hypocrites.
I only hope they do need the police's assistance one day and the attending officer(s) recognise them and tell them to go fuck themselves!

Video 2 shows an attorney advising how to beat DUI charges (no way Im wasting 18 minutes of my life on this soul seller).
What a surprise.
Very noble and moral.
And again, brilliant.
Protect the guilty via the 5th.
I only hope one of this guy's kin get cleaned up by a drunk driver and they then escape prosecution by using his own methods.

Jeez Hub, I mean FFS!!!

* Last updated by: yannih on 4/13/2020 @ 6:59 AM *